On Monday, 26 March 2018 01:28:44 UTC+1, Neon John wrote:> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:37:03 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > > >On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: > >> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: > >>> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard > >>> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in > >>> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of > >>> parts is just too time consuming. > > The Deep State at work. Sounds like things haven't changed much since > I was designing rad-hard equipment for terrestrial use. > >>> > >>> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for > >>> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT > >>> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. > >>> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. > >>> > >>> -- Regards, Joerg > >>> > >>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > >> > >> Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? > >> > >> What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? > >> > > > >Then I would get shot :-) > > > >Essentially scientific expeditions into space. > > ah yes, purposes classification. The reason they keep making the same > errors over and over. > > Since there are many successful spacecraft out there, can't you use > data from some of those or is that info needlessly classified? > > In our applications (instruments near a reactor core, for example), > dose RATE mattered more than TID. > > Just for grinz, I googled and found this paper. > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12056428 > > That should be quite helpful. The dose rate in outer space or even > the Van Allen belt is orders of magnitude below what we designed for. > > >The ionization dose is still under discussion. If you go from 100krad to > >300krad the number of parts shrinks substantially, if 1Mrad you might as > >well do it all in discretes. > > Can't you pry loose the expected dose rates from some other space > craft project that's already been there? > > > > > > >> Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html > >> > > > >Thanks, that will probably come in handy. > > Interesting site. Thanks. > > >> Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for > >> space application may cost 5 GBP. > >> > > > >Ah, thanks, now we are getting somewhere. I wonder what a gate driver or > >a power transistor would cost. Last time I had to do this was decades > >ago and I don't remember prices. > > That's my problem with specifics. Too many decades have past. 1000x > the price of equivalent non-hard parts sounds about right, though. > > John > > John DeArmond > http://www.neon-john.com > http://www.tnduction.com > Tellico Plains, Occupied TN > See website for email addressAs you may guess I've not designed rad-hard. At those prices why not have redundant unhardened circuitry feeding a rad-hard majority vote gate or error checker. NT
Pricing for rad-hard parts
Started by ●March 22, 2018
Reply by ●March 25, 20182018-03-25
Reply by ●March 26, 20182018-03-26
On 26/03/2018 13:10, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:> On Monday, 26 March 2018 01:28:44 UTC+1, Neon John wrote: >> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:37:03 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: >>>> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>>>> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard >>>>> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in >>>>> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of >>>>> parts is just too time consuming. >> >> The Deep State at work. Sounds like things haven't changed much since >> I was designing rad-hard equipment for terrestrial use. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for >>>>> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT >>>>> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. >>>>> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >>>>> >>>>> -- Regards, Joerg >>>>> >>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>>> >>>> Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? >>>> >>>> What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? >>>> >>> >>> Then I would get shot :-) >>> >>> Essentially scientific expeditions into space. >> >> ah yes, purposes classification. The reason they keep making the same >> errors over and over. >> >> Since there are many successful spacecraft out there, can't you use >> data from some of those or is that info needlessly classified? >> >> In our applications (instruments near a reactor core, for example), >> dose RATE mattered more than TID. >> >> Just for grinz, I googled and found this paper. >> >> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12056428 >> >> That should be quite helpful. The dose rate in outer space or even >> the Van Allen belt is orders of magnitude below what we designed for. >> >>> The ionization dose is still under discussion. If you go from 100krad to >>> 300krad the number of parts shrinks substantially, if 1Mrad you might as >>> well do it all in discretes. >> >> Can't you pry loose the expected dose rates from some other space >> craft project that's already been there? >> >>> >>> >>>> Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html >>>> >>> >>> Thanks, that will probably come in handy. >> >> Interesting site. Thanks. >> >>>> Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for >>>> space application may cost 5 GBP. >>>> >>> >>> Ah, thanks, now we are getting somewhere. I wonder what a gate driver or >>> a power transistor would cost. Last time I had to do this was decades >>> ago and I don't remember prices. >> >> That's my problem with specifics. Too many decades have past. 1000x >> the price of equivalent non-hard parts sounds about right, though. >> >> John >> >> John DeArmond >> http://www.neon-john.com >> http://www.tnduction.com >> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN >> See website for email address > > As you may guess I've not designed rad-hard. At those prices why not have redundant unhardened circuitry feeding a rad-hard majority vote gate or error checker.AIUI Planet Labs uses ordinary parts and just has a reduntent whole satellite, or actually dozens of them.
Reply by ●March 26, 20182018-03-26
On 2018-03-26 05:17, Chris Jones wrote:> On 26/03/2018 13:10, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: >> On Monday, 26 March 2018 01:28:44 UTC+1, Neon John wrote: >>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:37:03 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: >>>>> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>>>>> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard >>>>>> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in >>>>>> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of >>>>>> parts is just too time consuming. >>> >>> The Deep State at work. Sounds like things haven't changed much since >>> I was designing rad-hard equipment for terrestrial use.Nope, they haven't.>>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for >>>>>> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT >>>>>> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. >>>>>> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Regards, Joerg >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? >>>>> >>>>> What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Then I would get shot :-) >>>> >>>> Essentially scientific expeditions into space. >>> >>> ah yes, purposes classification. The reason they keep making the same >>> errors over and over. >>> >>> Since there are many successful spacecraft out there, can't you use >>> data from some of those or is that info needlessly classified? >>>Eventually there may be some data.>>> In our applications (instruments near a reactor core, for example), >>> dose RATE mattered more than TID. >>> >>> Just for grinz, I googled and found this paper. >>> >>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12056428 >>> >>> That should be quite helpful. The dose rate in outer space or even >>> the Van Allen belt is orders of magnitude below what we designed for. >>> >>>> The ionization dose is still under discussion. If you go from >>>> 100krad to >>>> 300krad the number of parts shrinks substantially, if 1Mrad you >>>> might as >>>> well do it all in discretes. >>> >>> Can't you pry loose the expected dose rates from some other space >>> craft project that's already been there? >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html >>>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, that will probably come in handy. >>> >>> Interesting site. Thanks. >>> >>>>> Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for >>>>> space application may cost 5 GBP. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Ah, thanks, now we are getting somewhere. I wonder what a gate >>>> driver or >>>> a power transistor would cost. Last time I had to do this was decades >>>> ago and I don't remember prices. >>> >>> That's my problem with specifics. Too many decades have past. 1000x >>> the price of equivalent non-hard parts sounds about right, though. >>>Problem is, the parts are sold via different distributors and for every part there is no price, just an RFQ button. Clicking it results in a lengthy registration process. Why can't they just say $876.25? Time to warm up some old contacts there though some folks will be retired for a while now.>>> John >>> >>> John DeArmond >>> http://www.neon-john.com >>> http://www.tnduction.com >>> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN >>> See website for email address >> >> As you may guess I've not designed rad-hard. At those prices why not >> have redundant unhardened circuitry feeding a rad-hard majority vote >> gate or error checker. >Then the sense and majority votting circuitry needs to be rad-hard. Essentially just kicking the can farther down the road.> AIUI Planet Labs uses ordinary parts and just has a reduntent whole > satellite, or actually dozens of them. >That's like placing bets of five roulette numbers simultaneously instead of one, quintupling the cost :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 26, 20182018-03-26
On 2018-03-25 08:36, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:> Am 25.03.2018 um 16:21 schrieb Joerg: >> [...] >> >>> Hi Joerg, I forgot to say that if the application is CubeSat, then >>> you don't need to buy ESA qualified parts. Things to considers are : >>> 1. mechanical stress due to 25 thermal cycle/day (select a PCB >>> substrate with a similar mechanical thermal coefficient of the IC >>> package) 2. ceramic capacitors get cracked easily. Use large pads if >>> assembled by hands ... >> >> Good points. Thanks, Francesco. > > You do not have much influence on the pad forms and sizes. That > is determined by the people who build the flight boards and their > processes. I had the special luck that my boards were made on two > different processes by different companies, partly by hand and partly > vapor phase solder. >Sometimes there is influence.> And a resistor / cap may be changed only once. 3 times hot abs. max. > is the rule and even that requires paperwork through the hierarchy. > If you expect tuning, use multiple parallel footprints. > > A small number of part types is better than a small number of parts > (in limits) because of the qualification overhead. They might > prefer 2 * 1K in par. instead of a new 499R. >Yes, that may indeed be necessary. Also because of time schedules.> I got protests because I wanted to reserve one larger and one smaller > from the nominal value for the pulling inductor of a crystal. Two extra > part types. But I had to insist. +-700 Hz pulling range at 100 MHz > with ultimate phase noise specs and flight varicaps never seen before. >If these varicaps had to go through testing and cert I can understand their reluctance.> At least they allowed me to plug the crystals on the network analyzer > and choose the one of the 5 that I liked best. In the end, it worked > without change. What a relief! >Dodging a stack of paperwork is always nice. I just received info about a form I have to file for other reasons with one of those ridiculous "Paperwork reduction act" notices at the end. That law has turned into a sad joke. Estimated time to learn the regulations before even filling this out is 42h. Hours!> >> 3. in your analysis consider SEE not just on >>> digital circuits also in analog circuits (e.g. BJT, MOS, the final >>> stage of an OP AMP, diodes reversed biased etc.) >>> > Yes, we have talked here already about voltage regulators that > can get SEUs. > >> >> Definitely. Analog is often where the most risk is because there may >> be no possible recovery from a single event. It can trigger something >> that shouldn't have been triggered and the computer can't take it back. > > We had one CPU that had to be commercial. That required an entire > protection board with sensor & switches just to be save. This orbit > would be lost. >And then this portection board needs to consist of 100 certified components.> We also had ram-based FPGAs with scrubbing in the configuration ram > and a lot of triple module redundancy. I wrote a nice library that > looks like ieee standard logic / vector and has all the redundancy > nearly completely hidden. There is an alternative tool from Xilinx > but that counts as a weapon. >Luckily I have managed to largely stay out of the digital world so far and I don't plan to change that :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 27, 20182018-03-27
On 27/03/2018 01:08, Joerg wrote:> On 2018-03-26 05:17, Chris Jones wrote: >> On 26/03/2018 13:10, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Monday, 26 March 2018 01:28:44 UTC+1, Neon John wrote: >>>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:37:03 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: >>>>>> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard >>>>>>> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in >>>>>>> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of >>>>>>> parts is just too time consuming. >>>> >>>> The Deep State at work. Sounds like things haven't changed much since >>>> I was designing rad-hard equipment for terrestrial use. > > > Nope, they haven't. > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for >>>>>>> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT >>>>>>> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. >>>>>>> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- Regards, Joerg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? >>>>>> >>>>>> What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Then I would get shot :-) >>>>> >>>>> Essentially scientific expeditions into space. >>>> >>>> ah yes, purposes classification. The reason they keep making the same >>>> errors over and over. >>>> >>>> Since there are many successful spacecraft out there, can't you use >>>> data from some of those or is that info needlessly classified? >>>> > > Eventually there may be some data. > > >>>> In our applications (instruments near a reactor core, for example), >>>> dose RATE mattered more than TID. >>>> >>>> Just for grinz, I googled and found this paper. >>>> >>>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12056428 >>>> >>>> That should be quite helpful. The dose rate in outer space or even >>>> the Van Allen belt is orders of magnitude below what we designed for. >>>> >>>>> The ionization dose is still under discussion. If you go from >>>>> 100krad to >>>>> 300krad the number of parts shrinks substantially, if 1Mrad you >>>>> might as >>>>> well do it all in discretes. >>>> >>>> Can't you pry loose the expected dose rates from some other space >>>> craft project that's already been there? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, that will probably come in handy. >>>> >>>> Interesting site. Thanks. >>>> >>>>>> Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for >>>>>> space application may cost 5 GBP. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ah, thanks, now we are getting somewhere. I wonder what a gate >>>>> driver or >>>>> a power transistor would cost. Last time I had to do this was decades >>>>> ago and I don't remember prices. >>>> >>>> That's my problem with specifics. Too many decades have past. 1000x >>>> the price of equivalent non-hard parts sounds about right, though. >>>> > > Problem is, the parts are sold via different distributors and for every > part there is no price, just an RFQ button. Clicking it results in a > lengthy registration process. Why can't they just say $876.25? > > Time to warm up some old contacts there though some folks will be > retired for a while now. > > >>>> John >>>> >>>> John DeArmond >>>> http://www.neon-john.com >>>> http://www.tnduction.com >>>> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN >>>> See website for email address >>> >>> As you may guess I've not designed rad-hard. At those prices why not >>> have redundant unhardened circuitry feeding a rad-hard majority vote >>> gate or error checker. >> > > Then the sense and majority votting circuitry needs to be rad-hard. > Essentially just kicking the can farther down the road. > > >> AIUI Planet Labs uses ordinary parts and just has a reduntent whole >> satellite, or actually dozens of them. >> > > That's like placing bets of five roulette numbers simultaneously instead > of one, quintupling the cost :-) >Heh, yes, but the parts cost a lot less, whether it is 100x or 1000x, so the total cost of the space vehicles might be less even if there are a lot more of them. Presumably the downside is launch cost, but then the satellites could be a lot smaller and lighter to launch if they can use a wide range of recent parts and not worry quite so much about proven reliability. Also the performance might be better if they can use recent parts. There are some interviews with a Planet Labs engineer on the embedded.fm podcast which you might find interesting. I found these two but there might be more of them: https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/153 https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/195
Reply by ●March 27, 20182018-03-27
On 2018-03-27 05:30, Chris Jones wrote:> On 27/03/2018 01:08, Joerg wrote: >> On 2018-03-26 05:17, Chris Jones wrote: >>> On 26/03/2018 13:10, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: >>>> On Monday, 26 March 2018 01:28:44 UTC+1, Neon John wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:37:03 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: >>>>>>> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard >>>>>>>> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in >>>>>>>> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of >>>>>>>> parts is just too time consuming. >>>>> >>>>> The Deep State at work. Sounds like things haven't changed much since >>>>> I was designing rad-hard equipment for terrestrial use. >> >> >> Nope, they haven't. >> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for >>>>>>>> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT >>>>>>>> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. >>>>>>>> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- Regards, Joerg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Then I would get shot :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Essentially scientific expeditions into space. >>>>> >>>>> ah yes, purposes classification. The reason they keep making the same >>>>> errors over and over. >>>>> >>>>> Since there are many successful spacecraft out there, can't you use >>>>> data from some of those or is that info needlessly classified? >>>>> >> >> Eventually there may be some data. >> >> >>>>> In our applications (instruments near a reactor core, for example), >>>>> dose RATE mattered more than TID. >>>>> >>>>> Just for grinz, I googled and found this paper. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12056428 >>>>> >>>>> That should be quite helpful. The dose rate in outer space or even >>>>> the Van Allen belt is orders of magnitude below what we designed for. >>>>> >>>>>> The ionization dose is still under discussion. If you go from >>>>>> 100krad to >>>>>> 300krad the number of parts shrinks substantially, if 1Mrad you >>>>>> might as >>>>>> well do it all in discretes. >>>>> >>>>> Can't you pry loose the expected dose rates from some other space >>>>> craft project that's already been there? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, that will probably come in handy. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting site. Thanks. >>>>> >>>>>>> Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for >>>>>>> space application may cost 5 GBP. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ah, thanks, now we are getting somewhere. I wonder what a gate >>>>>> driver or >>>>>> a power transistor would cost. Last time I had to do this was decades >>>>>> ago and I don't remember prices. >>>>> >>>>> That's my problem with specifics. Too many decades have past. 1000x >>>>> the price of equivalent non-hard parts sounds about right, though. >>>>> >> >> Problem is, the parts are sold via different distributors and for >> every part there is no price, just an RFQ button. Clicking it results >> in a lengthy registration process. Why can't they just say $876.25? >> >> Time to warm up some old contacts there though some folks will be >> retired for a while now. >> >> >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> John DeArmond >>>>> http://www.neon-john.com >>>>> http://www.tnduction.com >>>>> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN >>>>> See website for email address >>>> >>>> As you may guess I've not designed rad-hard. At those prices why not >>>> have redundant unhardened circuitry feeding a rad-hard majority vote >>>> gate or error checker. >>> >> >> Then the sense and majority votting circuitry needs to be rad-hard. >> Essentially just kicking the can farther down the road. >> >> >>> AIUI Planet Labs uses ordinary parts and just has a reduntent whole >>> satellite, or actually dozens of them. >>> >> >> That's like placing bets of five roulette numbers simultaneously >> instead of one, quintupling the cost :-) >> > > Heh, yes, but the parts cost a lot less, whether it is 100x or 1000x, so > the total cost of the space vehicles might be less even if there are a > lot more of them. Presumably the downside is launch cost, but then the > satellites could be a lot smaller and lighter to launch if they can use > a wide range of recent parts and not worry quite so much about proven > reliability.You can't necessarily use a lot of the modern nanometer stuff where it is almost guaranteed that a miniscue event would gum up the works. With anything hi-rel an engineer is essentially set back a few decades in which parts they can use. It's like "blast from the past" designs.> ... Also the performance might be better if they can use recent > parts. There are some interviews with a Planet Labs engineer on the > embedded.fm podcast which you might find interesting. I found these two > but there might be more of them: > https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/153 > https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/195 >Thanks. I'll have to wait for some free time though since these are long audio interviews. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 27, 20182018-03-27
On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:30:33 +1100, Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:>On 27/03/2018 01:08, Joerg wrote: >> On 2018-03-26 05:17, Chris Jones wrote: >>> On 26/03/2018 13:10, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: >>>> On Monday, 26 March 2018 01:28:44 UTC+1, Neon John� wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:37:03 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: >>>>>>> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg� wrote: >>>>>>>> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard >>>>>>>> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in >>>>>>>> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of >>>>>>>> parts is just too time consuming. >>>>> >>>>> The Deep State at work.� Sounds like things haven't changed much since >>>>> I was designing rad-hard equipment for terrestrial use. >> >> >> Nope, they haven't. >> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for >>>>>>>> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT >>>>>>>> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. >>>>>>>> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- Regards, Joerg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Then I would get shot :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Essentially scientific expeditions into space. >>>>> >>>>> ah yes, purposes classification.� The reason they keep making the same >>>>> errors over and over. >>>>> >>>>> Since there are many successful spacecraft out there, can't you use >>>>> data from some of those or is that info needlessly classified? >>>>> >> >> Eventually there may be some data. >> >> >>>>> In our applications (instruments near a reactor core, for example), >>>>> dose RATE mattered more than TID. >>>>> >>>>> Just for grinz, I googled and found this paper. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12056428 >>>>> >>>>> That should be quite helpful.� The dose rate in outer space or even >>>>> the Van Allen belt is orders of magnitude below what we designed for. >>>>> >>>>>> The ionization dose is still under discussion. If you go from >>>>>> 100krad to >>>>>> 300krad the number of parts shrinks substantially, if 1Mrad you >>>>>> might as >>>>>> well do it all in discretes. >>>>> >>>>> Can't you pry loose the expected dose rates from some other space >>>>> craft project that's already been there? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, that will probably come in handy. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting site.� Thanks. >>>>> >>>>>>> Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for >>>>>>> space application may cost 5 GBP. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ah, thanks, now we are getting somewhere. I wonder what a gate >>>>>> driver or >>>>>> a power transistor would cost. Last time I had to do this was decades >>>>>> ago and I don't remember prices. >>>>> >>>>> That's my problem with specifics.� Too many decades have past.� 1000x >>>>> the price of equivalent non-hard parts sounds about right, though. >>>>> >> >> Problem is, the parts are sold via different distributors and for every >> part there is no price, just an RFQ button. Clicking it results in a >> lengthy registration process. Why can't they just say $876.25? >> >> Time to warm up some old contacts there though some folks will be >> retired for a while now. >> >> >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> John DeArmond >>>>> http://www.neon-john.com >>>>> http://www.tnduction.com >>>>> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN >>>>> See website for email address >>>> >>>> As you may guess I've not designed rad-hard. At those prices why not >>>> have redundant unhardened circuitry feeding a rad-hard majority vote >>>> gate or error checker. >>> >> >> Then the sense and majority votting circuitry needs to be rad-hard. >> Essentially just kicking the can farther down the road. >> >> >>> AIUI Planet Labs uses ordinary parts and just has a reduntent whole >>> satellite, or actually dozens of them. >>> >> >> That's like placing bets of five roulette numbers simultaneously instead >> of one, quintupling the cost :-) >> > >Heh, yes, but the parts cost a lot less, whether it is 100x or 1000x, so >the total cost of the space vehicles might be less even if there are a >lot more of them. Presumably the downside is launch cost, but then the >satellites could be a lot smaller and lighter to launch if they can use >a wide range of recent parts and not worry quite so much about proven >reliability. Also the performance might be better if they can use recent >parts. There are some interviews with a Planet Labs engineer on the >embedded.fm podcast which you might find interesting. I found these two >but there might be more of them: >https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/153 >https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/195I throws a lot of useless junk into valuable spots in space, though.
Reply by ●March 28, 20182018-03-28
On 28/03/2018 08:25, krw@notreal.com wrote:> On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:30:33 +1100, Chris Jones > <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On 27/03/2018 01:08, Joerg wrote: >>> On 2018-03-26 05:17, Chris Jones wrote: >>>> On 26/03/2018 13:10, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> On Monday, 26 March 2018 01:28:44 UTC+1, Neon John wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:37:03 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: >>>>>>>> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard >>>>>>>>> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in >>>>>>>>> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of >>>>>>>>> parts is just too time consuming. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Deep State at work. Sounds like things haven't changed much since >>>>>> I was designing rad-hard equipment for terrestrial use. >>> >>> >>> Nope, they haven't. >>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for >>>>>>>>> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT >>>>>>>>> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. >>>>>>>>> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- Regards, Joerg >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then I would get shot :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Essentially scientific expeditions into space. >>>>>> >>>>>> ah yes, purposes classification. The reason they keep making the same >>>>>> errors over and over. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since there are many successful spacecraft out there, can't you use >>>>>> data from some of those or is that info needlessly classified? >>>>>> >>> >>> Eventually there may be some data. >>> >>> >>>>>> In our applications (instruments near a reactor core, for example), >>>>>> dose RATE mattered more than TID. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just for grinz, I googled and found this paper. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12056428 >>>>>> >>>>>> That should be quite helpful. The dose rate in outer space or even >>>>>> the Van Allen belt is orders of magnitude below what we designed for. >>>>>> >>>>>>> The ionization dose is still under discussion. If you go from >>>>>>> 100krad to >>>>>>> 300krad the number of parts shrinks substantially, if 1Mrad you >>>>>>> might as >>>>>>> well do it all in discretes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Can't you pry loose the expected dose rates from some other space >>>>>> craft project that's already been there? >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, that will probably come in handy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting site. Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for >>>>>>>> space application may cost 5 GBP. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ah, thanks, now we are getting somewhere. I wonder what a gate >>>>>>> driver or >>>>>>> a power transistor would cost. Last time I had to do this was decades >>>>>>> ago and I don't remember prices. >>>>>> >>>>>> That's my problem with specifics. Too many decades have past. 1000x >>>>>> the price of equivalent non-hard parts sounds about right, though. >>>>>> >>> >>> Problem is, the parts are sold via different distributors and for every >>> part there is no price, just an RFQ button. Clicking it results in a >>> lengthy registration process. Why can't they just say $876.25? >>> >>> Time to warm up some old contacts there though some folks will be >>> retired for a while now. >>> >>> >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> John DeArmond >>>>>> http://www.neon-john.com >>>>>> http://www.tnduction.com >>>>>> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN >>>>>> See website for email address >>>>> >>>>> As you may guess I've not designed rad-hard. At those prices why not >>>>> have redundant unhardened circuitry feeding a rad-hard majority vote >>>>> gate or error checker. >>>> >>> >>> Then the sense and majority votting circuitry needs to be rad-hard. >>> Essentially just kicking the can farther down the road. >>> >>> >>>> AIUI Planet Labs uses ordinary parts and just has a reduntent whole >>>> satellite, or actually dozens of them. >>>> >>> >>> That's like placing bets of five roulette numbers simultaneously instead >>> of one, quintupling the cost :-) >>> >> >> Heh, yes, but the parts cost a lot less, whether it is 100x or 1000x, so >> the total cost of the space vehicles might be less even if there are a >> lot more of them. Presumably the downside is launch cost, but then the >> satellites could be a lot smaller and lighter to launch if they can use >> a wide range of recent parts and not worry quite so much about proven >> reliability. Also the performance might be better if they can use recent >> parts. There are some interviews with a Planet Labs engineer on the >> embedded.fm podcast which you might find interesting. I found these two >> but there might be more of them: >> https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/153 >> https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/195 > > I throws a lot of useless junk into valuable spots in space, though. >Yes, though most of these are in low orbits such that they decay and burn up fairly soon whether they want to or not. AIUI there are rules that discourage that sort of thing in long-lived orbits.
Reply by ●March 28, 20182018-03-28
On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 12:08:28 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:> > >I don't know yet. They will have to decide on the level of rad-hardness >and then I'll have to see if the circuitry is even economically feasible >with that, given component availability.You can consider testing key parts yourself. There can be large differences between complex parts for no reason that is obvious from the outside. Last year I tested a bunch of parts in one shot. --sp
Reply by ●March 28, 20182018-03-28
On 2018-03-28 05:25, Spehro Pefhany wrote:> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 12:08:28 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> >> >> I don't know yet. They will have to decide on the level of rad-hardness >> and then I'll have to see if the circuitry is even economically feasible >> with that, given component availability. > > You can consider testing key parts yourself. There can be large > differences between complex parts for no reason that is obvious from > the outside. > > Last year I tested a bunch of parts in one shot. >That is certainly an option but I'll leave that to the client. A lot of liability can ride on self-testing. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
