On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote:> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard circuit > would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in a very > secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of parts is > just too time consuming. > > Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for rad-hard > stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT driver here and > there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. Lead times would be > nice as well as most of this is zero stock. > > -- > Regards, Joerg > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? When you buy a Radhard part you solve only half of the problem (TID). Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html The above articles may give you a starting point for your own research. Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for space application may cost 5 GBP. Cheers, Francesco www.neutronix.co.uk
Pricing for rad-hard parts
Started by ●March 22, 2018
Reply by ●March 24, 20182018-03-24
Reply by ●March 24, 20182018-03-24
On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote:> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard circuit > would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in a very > secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of parts is > just too time consuming. > > Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for rad-hard > stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT driver here and > there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. Lead times would be > nice as well as most of this is zero stock. > > -- > Regards, Joerg > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/Hi Joerg, I forgot to say, shielding only works for alpha and Beta particles.... (just read some of the comment above). Before starting your design I suggest understanding the radiation environmental (probably your worst issue are Gamma ray) alpha and Beta are usually low energy particles. Cheers, Francesco www.neutronix.co.uk
Reply by ●March 24, 20182018-03-24
On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote:> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: >> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard >> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in >> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of >> parts is just too time consuming. >> >> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for >> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT >> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. >> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >> >> -- Regards, Joerg >> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > > Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? > > What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? >Then I would get shot :-) Essentially scientific expeditions into space.> When you buy a Radhard part you solve only half of the problem > (TID). >The ionization dose is still under discussion. If you go from 100krad to 300krad the number of parts shrinks substantially, if 1Mrad you might as well do it all in discretes.> Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html >Thanks, that will probably come in handy.> The above articles may give you a starting point for your own > research. > > Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for > space application may cost 5 GBP. >Ah, thanks, now we are getting somewhere. I wonder what a gate driver or a power transistor would cost. Last time I had to do this was decades ago and I don't remember prices.> > > Cheers, Francesco > > www.neutronix.co.uk >This is good to know. I may have to hand off design work at some point because of a rather full plate and of a plan to retire (which some clients didn't agree with ...). I assume you guys have design experience with space-rated electronics. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 24, 20182018-03-24
On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:37:03 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:>On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: >> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard >>> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in >>> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of >>> parts is just too time consuming. >>> >>> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for >>> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT >>> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. >>> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >>> >>> -- Regards, Joerg >>> >>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> >> Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? >> >> What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? >> > >Then I would get shot :-) > >Essentially scientific expeditions into space.What kind of orbit ? LEO, Polar, GTO, GSO or outer space. GTO and Molnya type orbits are particularly nasty, since the satellite will cross the Van Allen radiation belts twice each orbit or 4 times a day. Many amateur radio AMSAT satellites are built using essentially off the shelf parts use Molnya type orbits. Some subsystems fail early in the mission, while other operates for decades. Just do not use any newly introduced components, since there are no long time radiation history.
Reply by ●March 24, 20182018-03-24
On 2018-03-24 12:00, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:37:03 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: >>> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>>> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard >>>> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in >>>> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of >>>> parts is just too time consuming. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for >>>> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT >>>> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. >>>> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >>>> >>>> -- Regards, Joerg >>>> >>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>> >>> Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? >>> >>> What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? >>> >> >> Then I would get shot :-) >> >> Essentially scientific expeditions into space. > > What kind of orbit ? LEO, Polar, GTO, GSO or outer space. GTO and > Molnya type orbits are particularly nasty, since the satellite will > cross the Van Allen radiation belts twice each orbit or 4 times a day. >I don't know yet. They will have to decide on the level of rad-hardness and then I'll have to see if the circuitry is even economically feasible with that, given component availability.> Many amateur radio AMSAT satellites are built using essentially off > the shelf parts use Molnya type orbits. Some subsystems fail early in > the mission, while other operates for decades. Just do not use any > newly introduced components, since there are no long time radiation > history. >In my case early failure wouldn't be cool. If someone uses non rad-hard parts for this they should prefer older devices with larger geometries (node). Not any of the super high density nanometer chips. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 25, 20182018-03-25
On Saturday, 24 March 2018 15:36:56 UTC, Joerg wrote:> On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: > > On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: > >> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard > >> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in > >> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of > >> parts is just too time consuming. > >> > >> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for > >> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT > >> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. > >> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. > >> > >> -- Regards, Joerg > >> > >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > > > > Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? > > > > What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? > > > > Then I would get shot :-) > > Essentially scientific expeditions into space. > > > > When you buy a Radhard part you solve only half of the problem > > (TID). > > > > The ionization dose is still under discussion. If you go from 100krad to > 300krad the number of parts shrinks substantially, if 1Mrad you might as > well do it all in discretes. > > > > Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html > > > > Thanks, that will probably come in handy. > > > > The above articles may give you a starting point for your own > > research. > > > > Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for > > space application may cost 5 GBP. > > > > Ah, thanks, now we are getting somewhere. I wonder what a gate driver or > a power transistor would cost. Last time I had to do this was decades > ago and I don't remember prices. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Francesco > > > > www.neutronix.co.uk > > > > This is good to know. I may have to hand off design work at some point > because of a rather full plate and of a plan to retire (which some > clients didn't agree with ...). I assume you guys have design experience > with space-rated electronics. > > -- > Regards, Joerg > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/Hi Joerg, I forgot to say that if the application is CubeSat, then you don't need to buy ESA qualified parts. Things to considers are : 1. mechanical stress due to 25 thermal cycle/day (select a PCB substrate with a similar mechanical thermal coefficient of the IC package) 2. ceramic capacitors get cracked easily. Use large pads if assembled by hands 3. in your analysis consider SEE not just on digital circuits also in analog circuits (e.g. BJT, MOS, the final stage of an OP AMP, diodes reversed biased etc.) Good luck with your project. Francesco www.neutronix.co.uk
Reply by ●March 25, 20182018-03-25
[...]> Hi Joerg, I forgot to say that if the application is CubeSat, then > you don't need to buy ESA qualified parts. Things to considers are : > 1. mechanical stress due to 25 thermal cycle/day (select a PCB > substrate with a similar mechanical thermal coefficient of the IC > package) 2. ceramic capacitors get cracked easily. Use large pads if > assembled by hands ...Good points. Thanks, Francesco. Ceramic caps are also a concern in aircraft electronics which I am familiar with. 3. in your analysis consider SEE not just on> digital circuits also in analog circuits (e.g. BJT, MOS, the final > stage of an OP AMP, diodes reversed biased etc.) >Definitely. Analog is often where the most risk is because there may be no possible recovery from a single event. It can trigger something that shouldn't have been triggered and the computer can't take it back. In case anyone is interested but not familiar with SEE yet here is a good concise explanation (middle slides of the presentation): https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050157056.pdf> Good luck with your project. >Thanks. It feels like when I got back on a mountain bike after not having ridden for 15 years. One can get hurt badly on those and I had my share of "involuntary high-speed dismounts". -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●March 25, 20182018-03-25
sdy wrote:> On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 7:20:42 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: >> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard circuit >> would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in a very >> secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of parts is >> just too time consuming. >> >> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for rad-hard >> stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT driver here and >> there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. Lead times would be >> nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >> >> -- >> Regards, Joerg >> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > > The lab I worked in screened ICs for gamma radiation. The reactor charged > $1000 a day. Then there's what we charged for the testing. > > I can get it done for you, if you need. www.4ctestsystems.comAerospace Corporation does testing using the Berkeley cyclotron, firing oxygen and other ions at the part. They have a list of several thousand parts and the sensitivity of each before upset and failure. I imagine you have to pay to get the detailed info. They might tell you for free if a specific part has test data already done. Jon
Reply by ●March 25, 20182018-03-25
Am 25.03.2018 um 16:21 schrieb Joerg:> [...] > >> Hi Joerg, I forgot to say that if the application is CubeSat, then >> you don't need to buy ESA qualified parts. Things to considers are : >> 1. mechanical stress due to 25 thermal cycle/day (select a PCB >> substrate with a similar mechanical thermal coefficient of the IC >> package) 2. ceramic capacitors get cracked easily. Use large pads if >> assembled by hands ... > > Good points. Thanks, Francesco.You do not have much influence on the pad forms and sizes. That is determined by the people who build the flight boards and their processes. I had the special luck that my boards were made on two different processes by different companies, partly by hand and partly vapor phase solder. And a resistor / cap may be changed only once. 3 times hot abs. max. is the rule and even that requires paperwork through the hierarchy. If you expect tuning, use multiple parallel footprints. A small number of part types is better than a small number of parts (in limits) because of the qualification overhead. They might prefer 2 * 1K in par. instead of a new 499R. I got protests because I wanted to reserve one larger and one smaller from the nominal value for the pulling inductor of a crystal. Two extra part types. But I had to insist. +-700 Hz pulling range at 100 MHz with ultimate phase noise specs and flight varicaps never seen before. At least they allowed me to plug the crystals on the network analyzer and choose the one of the 5 that I liked best. In the end, it worked without change. What a relief!> 3. in your analysis consider SEE not just on >> digital circuits also in analog circuits (e.g. BJT, MOS, the final >> stage of an OP AMP, diodes reversed biased etc.) >>Yes, we have talked here already about voltage regulators that can get SEUs.> > Definitely. Analog is often where the most risk is because there may be > no possible recovery from a single event. It can trigger something that > shouldn't have been triggered and the computer can't take it back.We had one CPU that had to be commercial. That required an entire protection board with sensor & switches just to be save. This orbit would be lost. We also had ram-based FPGAs with scrubbing in the configuration ram and a lot of triple module redundancy. I wrote a nice library that looks like ieee standard logic / vector and has all the redundancy nearly completely hidden. There is an alternative tool from Xilinx but that counts as a weapon. Cheers, Gerhard
Reply by ●March 25, 20182018-03-25
On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:37:03 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:>On 2018-03-24 07:52, Francesco wrote: >> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 23:20:42 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>> Got to arrive at a (very) rough estimate of what a rad-hard >>> circuit would cost. These days such pricing seems to be handled in >>> a very secretive way and going through the sales spiel for a lot of >>> parts is just too time consuming.The Deep State at work. Sounds like things haven't changed much since I was designing rad-hard equipment for terrestrial use.>>> >>> Does anyone know a site that has at least some pricing info for >>> rad-hard stuff? It's mostly discretes and maybe a gate or BJT >>> driver here and there. Ballpark pricing is all I need at this time. >>> Lead times would be nice as well as most of this is zero stock. >>> >>> -- Regards, Joerg >>> >>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> >> Hi Joerg, Can you share more details on your application? >> >> What is the maximum TID? Do you have extreme temperature cycles? >> > >Then I would get shot :-) > >Essentially scientific expeditions into space.ah yes, purposes classification. The reason they keep making the same errors over and over. Since there are many successful spacecraft out there, can't you use data from some of those or is that info needlessly classified? In our applications (instruments near a reactor core, for example), dose RATE mattered more than TID. Just for grinz, I googled and found this paper. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12056428 That should be quite helpful. The dose rate in outer space or even the Van Allen belt is orders of magnitude below what we designed for.>The ionization dose is still under discussion. If you go from 100krad to >300krad the number of parts shrinks substantially, if 1Mrad you might as >well do it all in discretes.Can't you pry loose the expected dose rates from some other space craft project that's already been there?> > >> Please have a look here: http://www.neutronix.co.uk/space.html >> > >Thanks, that will probably come in handy.Interesting site. Thanks.>> Just to give you an idea of the price... a 1kohm 0603 resistor for >> space application may cost 5 GBP. >> > >Ah, thanks, now we are getting somewhere. I wonder what a gate driver or >a power transistor would cost. Last time I had to do this was decades >ago and I don't remember prices.That's my problem with specifics. Too many decades have past. 1000x the price of equivalent non-hard parts sounds about right, though. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address
