John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:> "Deck" means "punched card deck." Punch cards were a huge improvement > over paper tape.Except when you drop a box of 4,000 cards:)
Dot allowed as characters allowed in netlist?
Started by ●March 11, 2018
Reply by ●March 13, 20182018-03-13
Reply by ●March 13, 20182018-03-13
Den onsdag den 14. marts 2018 kl. 01.17.03 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:> On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 20:15:03 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote: > > >On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:33:12 -0700, John Larkin > ><jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote: > > > >>On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:11:04 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen > >><langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: > >> > >>>Den tirsdag den 13. marts 2018 kl. 22.38.37 UTC+1 skrev Joerg: > >>>> On 2018-03-13 08:43, John Larkin wrote: > >>>> > On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 17:43:07 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> >> On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 1:59:26 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: > >>>> >> > >>>> >>> The original justification was that decimal points were somehow > >>>> >>> fragile and got lost on drawings, so the wrong parts values got > >>>> >>> installed. It was nonsense of course. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Too young to recall thermal fax machines? > >>>> >> Lines that crossed got rather fat at the intersection, > >>>> >> and the images faded over time. > >>>> > > >>>> > I started with hand-drawn schematics on vellum, and blueprint > >>>> > machines. And I still use both. And I never lose or mistake decimal > >>>> > points or tie points. Maybe that's because I had two semisters of > >>>> > engineering drawing in college. > >>>> > > >>>> > I don't think that a D-size schematic could be FAXd, then or now. > >>>> > > >>>> > A lot of current "wisdom" is left over from olden days, and especially > >>>> > bad, amateur habits of olden days. We have computers now. Parts lists > >>>> > are generated automatically from our schematics, and computers don't > >>>> > mistake decimal points for coffee stains. Software gets the net lists > >>>> > right even when two wires cross. > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> I have found bugs in netlists. Mostly where wires looked like they > >>>> connected to a component but didn't. I check every schematic on all my > >>>> designs against the netlist by hand. Doing one right now. It's tedious > >>>> grunt work but better safe that sorry. > >>> > >>>missing connections to a component should be caught by ERC > >> > >>How does that work? > > > >Nothing connected to the pin, maybe? > > I meant, what is ERC? >electric rule check
Reply by ●March 13, 20182018-03-13
Am 14.03.2018 um 01:24 schrieb Steve Wilson:> John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote: > >> "Deck" means "punched card deck." Punch cards were a huge improvement >> over paper tape. > > Except when you drop a box of 4,000 cards:) >Since the cards had line numbers and the card reader had multiple output boxes, it was possible to do a binary sort in a few passes through the reader. cheers, Gerhard
Reply by ●March 13, 20182018-03-13
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 17:16:53 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:>On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 20:15:03 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote: > >>On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:33:12 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote: >> >>>On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:11:04 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen >>><langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: >>> >>>>Den tirsdag den 13. marts 2018 kl. 22.38.37 UTC+1 skrev Joerg: >>>>> On 2018-03-13 08:43, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> > On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 17:43:07 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 1:59:26 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> The original justification was that decimal points were somehow >>>>> >>> fragile and got lost on drawings, so the wrong parts values got >>>>> >>> installed. It was nonsense of course. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Too young to recall thermal fax machines? >>>>> >> Lines that crossed got rather fat at the intersection, >>>>> >> and the images faded over time. >>>>> > >>>>> > I started with hand-drawn schematics on vellum, and blueprint >>>>> > machines. And I still use both. And I never lose or mistake decimal >>>>> > points or tie points. Maybe that's because I had two semisters of >>>>> > engineering drawing in college. >>>>> > >>>>> > I don't think that a D-size schematic could be FAXd, then or now. >>>>> > >>>>> > A lot of current "wisdom" is left over from olden days, and especially >>>>> > bad, amateur habits of olden days. We have computers now. Parts lists >>>>> > are generated automatically from our schematics, and computers don't >>>>> > mistake decimal points for coffee stains. Software gets the net lists >>>>> > right even when two wires cross. >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> I have found bugs in netlists. Mostly where wires looked like they >>>>> connected to a component but didn't. I check every schematic on all my >>>>> designs against the netlist by hand. Doing one right now. It's tedious >>>>> grunt work but better safe that sorry. >>>> >>>>missing connections to a component should be caught by ERC >>> >>>How does that work? >> >>Nothing connected to the pin, maybe? > >I meant, what is ERC?One better than a DRC.
Reply by ●March 13, 20182018-03-13
Gerhard Hoffmann <gerhard@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> wrote:> Am 14.03.2018 um 01:24 schrieb Steve Wilson: >> John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:>>> "Deck" means "punched card deck." Punch cards were a huge improvement >>> over paper tape.>> Except when you drop a box of 4,000 cards:)> Since the cards had line numbers and the card reader had > multiple output boxes, it was possible to do a binary sort > in a few passes through the reader.> cheers, GerhardI wonder how that would work. Say you needed to add a few lines to a subroutine. Does that mean you have to print a whole new deck to renumber all the lines? Or did they increment the line numbers by 10 to allow a few additional cards between the main line numbers? I used these cards at MIT to program in Fortran, but it was so long ago I forget how they worked.
Reply by ●March 13, 20182018-03-13
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 02:04:47 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:>Gerhard Hoffmann <gerhard@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> wrote: > >> Am 14.03.2018 um 01:24 schrieb Steve Wilson: >>> John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote: > >>>> "Deck" means "punched card deck." Punch cards were a huge improvement >>>> over paper tape. > >>> Except when you drop a box of 4,000 cards:) > >> Since the cards had line numbers and the card reader had >> multiple output boxes, it was possible to do a binary sort >> in a few passes through the reader. > >> cheers, Gerhard > >I wonder how that would work. Say you needed to add a few lines to a >subroutine. Does that mean you have to print a whole new deck to renumber all >the lines? Or did they increment the line numbers by 10 to allow a few >additional cards between the main line numbers?That was the usual method. However, it doesn't help reorder cards.> >I used these cards at MIT to program in Fortran, but it was so long ago I >forget how they worked.I never added sequence numbers. They were more difficult to add manually than they were worth. Mostly, they were used for machine punched decks.
Reply by ●March 13, 20182018-03-13
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 14:45:42 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:>On 2018-03-13 14:38, Joerg wrote: >> On 2018-03-13 08:43, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 17:43:07 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 1:59:26 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: >>>> >>>>> The original justification was that decimal points were somehow >>>>> fragile and got lost on drawings, so the wrong parts values got >>>>> installed. It was nonsense of course. >>>> >>>> Too young to recall thermal fax machines? >>>> Lines that crossed got rather fat at the intersection, >>>> and the images faded over time. >>> >>> I started with hand-drawn schematics on vellum, and blueprint >>> machines. And I still use both. And I never lose or mistake decimal >>> points or tie points. Maybe that's because I had two semisters of >>> engineering drawing in college. >>> >>> I don't think that a D-size schematic could be FAXd, then or now. >>> >>> A lot of current "wisdom" is left over from olden days, and especially >>> bad, amateur habits of olden days. We have computers now. Parts lists >>> are generated automatically from our schematics, and computers don't >>> mistake decimal points for coffee stains. Software gets the net lists >>> right even when two wires cross. >>> >> >> I have found bugs in netlists. Mostly where wires looked like they >> connected to a component but didn't. I check every schematic on all my >> designs against the netlist by hand. Doing one right now. It's tedious >> grunt work but better safe that sorry. >> >> On the last one I found a bug that was my fault. The eye sight isn't >> getting better and I thought one node was connected to -12V where in >> reality it was +12V. Going through the netlist that jumped right at me >> ... whew. >> >> Down to my last crayon pencil now. It is still from my old 1st grade kit >> and I thought they'd last until retirement. A new set of 12 is en route >> from China, $1.87 free ship, couldn't believe it. That should last me >> for netlist checks until I am 120.**I** got 24! -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●March 13, 20182018-03-13
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 17:24:54 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>Den onsdag den 14. marts 2018 kl. 01.17.03 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin: >> On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 20:15:03 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote: >> >> >On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:33:12 -0700, John Larkin >> ><jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote: >> > >> >>On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:11:04 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen >> >><langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: >> >> >> >>>Den tirsdag den 13. marts 2018 kl. 22.38.37 UTC+1 skrev Joerg: >> >>>> On 2018-03-13 08:43, John Larkin wrote: >> >>>> > On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 17:43:07 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >> >>>> > wrote: >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 1:59:26 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >>> The original justification was that decimal points were somehow >> >>>> >>> fragile and got lost on drawings, so the wrong parts values got >> >>>> >>> installed. It was nonsense of course. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> Too young to recall thermal fax machines? >> >>>> >> Lines that crossed got rather fat at the intersection, >> >>>> >> and the images faded over time. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > I started with hand-drawn schematics on vellum, and blueprint >> >>>> > machines. And I still use both. And I never lose or mistake decimal >> >>>> > points or tie points. Maybe that's because I had two semisters of >> >>>> > engineering drawing in college. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > I don't think that a D-size schematic could be FAXd, then or now. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > A lot of current "wisdom" is left over from olden days, and especially >> >>>> > bad, amateur habits of olden days. We have computers now. Parts lists >> >>>> > are generated automatically from our schematics, and computers don't >> >>>> > mistake decimal points for coffee stains. Software gets the net lists >> >>>> > right even when two wires cross. >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> I have found bugs in netlists. Mostly where wires looked like they >> >>>> connected to a component but didn't. I check every schematic on all my >> >>>> designs against the netlist by hand. Doing one right now. It's tedious >> >>>> grunt work but better safe that sorry. >> >>> >> >>>missing connections to a component should be caught by ERC >> >> >> >>How does that work? >> > >> >Nothing connected to the pin, maybe? >> >> I meant, what is ERC? >> > >electric rule check >OK, one more level of indirection: what is that? -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●March 13, 20182018-03-13
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 16:14:52 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:>On 2018-03-13 15:31, John Larkin wrote: >> On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 14:38:35 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2018-03-13 08:43, John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 17:43:07 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 1:59:26 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The original justification was that decimal points were somehow >>>>>> fragile and got lost on drawings, so the wrong parts values got >>>>>> installed. It was nonsense of course. >>>>> >>>>> Too young to recall thermal fax machines? >>>>> Lines that crossed got rather fat at the intersection, >>>>> and the images faded over time. >>>> >>>> I started with hand-drawn schematics on vellum, and blueprint >>>> machines. And I still use both. And I never lose or mistake decimal >>>> points or tie points. Maybe that's because I had two semisters of >>>> engineering drawing in college. >>>> >>>> I don't think that a D-size schematic could be FAXd, then or now. >>>> >>>> A lot of current "wisdom" is left over from olden days, and especially >>>> bad, amateur habits of olden days. We have computers now. Parts lists >>>> are generated automatically from our schematics, and computers don't >>>> mistake decimal points for coffee stains. Software gets the net lists >>>> right even when two wires cross. >>>> >>> >>> I have found bugs in netlists. Mostly where wires looked like they >>> connected to a component but didn't. I check every schematic on all my >>> designs against the netlist by hand. Doing one right now. It's tedious >>> grunt work but better safe that sorry. >> >> Some bad schematic software, like OrCad, allowed one to miss a >> connection by a single pixel, and get an open circuit. LT Spice can do >> things like that. PADS does not allow a wire to terminate into free >> space; every wire end must terminate connected to a part pin, or a big >> fat dot to another wire. It's impossible to create an open end or a >> free-floating wire segment. >> > >That's how it should be. Even Eagle misses that at times so the drill is >to move all the parts at the end and see if everything rubber-bands >along. Other than that it is fairly good though I won't make the >transition to the new owner's "license tax model". > > >> I don't manually check PCB netlists for connectivity; it's never >> wrong. I do sometimes read a netlist to make sure I haven't mis-named >> nets, like CLOCK12 on one sheet and CLK12 on another. >> > >That's another error that can happen. Then there is the run of a wire >into the wrong net and it got overlooked because the schematic is very >busy. When tracing off the netlist in the schematic it's "Hey, wait a >minute, why does this connect to the 7th line and not the 8th?".I don't like busses. One of my guys once named a bus ADDR[15:0] on one sheet and ADDR[0:15] on another. So we had to write a program to shuffle the programming file for an EPROM. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●March 13, 20182018-03-13
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 00:24:34 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:>John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote: > >> "Deck" means "punched card deck." Punch cards were a huge improvement >> over paper tape. > >Except when you drop a box of 4,000 cards:)Once you have a program, draw a big diagonal line across the top of the cards. You could also color-code subroutines and data blocks and such. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
