>wrote in message >news:2eb4a887-1683-4204-9a70-6606e5e44acc@googlegroups.com...On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 9:42:58 AM UTC+2, Kevin Aylward wrote: [..]>> How much would it cost to for any company to get the Spice3 code, >> and hire someone to write a GUI for it? Like a few $100k ?>Looking e.g. at the ngspice open source project, to get from the >SPICE3 code to something comparable to LTspice takes at least >50 man-years, and then we are not talking code monkeys.er... ngspice *exists*. Dah.... Anyone can use it and give it away. So that part of the deal is *already* done. I give away the source code and xpice engine of my SS to anyone that wants it. I am an analog designer, so yes, code monkeys can do the integration into a new project:-)>It is hard for me to believe that a good GUI for spice3 >will cost only 300K$ if it is written from scratch by a >hired gun. I think I'd prefer to find somebody to sell >one to me for that price that it is already working :-) >Even then, you'd need a few fte's to get all the bugs out.It took me 4 years part time in *evenings* to do 150k lines of code to do the GUI. However...today...there are class libraries that do it all for you!!! No one needs to write a GUI from scratch today. There is a 3rd party gui toolkit, that generates the exact same drawing capabilities that is in Electronic Workbench/Multisim. Its been available for over 15 years. A grand or so, I believe. "Build your own Multisim like circuit simulation and design product" http://www.ucancode.net/Circuit-Design-interactive-simulation-Animation-analysis-layout-visualization-VC-Source-Code.htm E-XD++ toolkit -- Kevin Aylward http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html
LT spice, leakage inductance
Started by ●July 20, 2017
Reply by ●July 23, 20172017-07-23
Reply by ●July 23, 20172017-07-23
>"John Larkin" wrote in message >news:a6b8nc9dhjv4f7qdfapt9ev6itr1l5vikl@4ax.com...>My systems are way too complex to simulate. I only sim one little >section if I think there's any risk.That's the difference between board level and IC level. The more complex, the more you *must* simulate in asic design. -- Kevin Aylward http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html
Reply by ●July 23, 20172017-07-23
>"John Larkin" wrote in message >news:1887ncd3ck4rgg6981vbat3hm6b3l7u18v@4ax.com...>> >> TPS54302 is a great little switcher, but I had to spend an afternoon >> breadboard fiddling to figure out all my needed compansations with >> various caps and voltages. I'll use a lot of them, so it was worth it. >> But neither TI's data sheet nor their software was much help. >> >> Colleges use LT Spice all over the world. It has its own culture. >> Culture matters. >> > >I'll second all that. 100%. > >I don't know how much sales I generated for LTC because of LTSpice but >it likely was 7-digit. And I am only one of many.>Literally millions of kids will get EE degrees where they learned to >use LT Spice. LTS has mediocre documentation and HELP, and lots of >hidden features, and the best tutorials are written by college profs, >for their students. All those kids will go out and continue to use LT >Spice, and spec LTC parts. [1] [2]So what? If the analysis was correct that such marketing resulted in Billions of extra sales, ALL the other vendors would be doing the same. The cost of producing a new Berkley/XSpice GUI spice is trivial. TI is not blooody stupid. They do $10B in sales. They know that giving out a total free spice, whilst useful, isn't that useful. Parts are bought on availability, performance and cost. End of. The number od competent analog users of spice is probably < 10,000 if even that, anyway. Only a tiny fraction of those LT users will ever go on to be pro designers influencing parts purchasing. Assuming that selection will weed out most of the shit ones, the remaining better ones will presumably be rationally selecting parts from all the vendors, not because they were bribed.>They won't be using SuperSpice much, because the student version is >badly crippled and not free.What I will say here is that, you have no idea as what what I actually do when someone orders a Student version :-) -- Kevin Aylward http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html
Reply by ●July 23, 20172017-07-23
"Joerg" wrote in message news:ethkgjFkhpdU1@mid.individual.net... On 2017-07-22 07:43, John Larkin wrote:>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:42:45 +0100, "Kevin Aylward" >> <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk>> wrote: >> >>>> "John Larkin" wrote in message >>>> news:2r95nc5ls1rrm7cmp5ptn26kmlrroi6jpp@4ax.com... >>>> >>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 21:25:00 +0100, "Kevin Aylward" >>>> <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> "John Larkin" wrote in message >>>>>> news:m794nclodso7tu7c9bihmic1cuqtuf4ufa@4ax.com... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Companies buy companies because the bought companies are eating >>>>>>>>>> onto the buying companies revenues. The buying company wants the, >>>>>>>>>> now get >>>>>>>>>> this, the *Customers* of the bought company, and secondly, their >>>>>>>>>> *products* >>>>>>>>>> that customers *buy*. LT gets billions of revenue from paying >>>>>>>>>> customers, >>>>>>>>>> that's what ADI want and bought. Dah.... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> LTSpice is just a nice icing on the cake sort of thing. If it >>>>>>>>>> ceased to >>>>>>>>>> exist, it ut bwould make F'all difference. That's reality. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's a major sales tool. >>>>>> >>>>>> No. Its a sales tool. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> People pay for sales tools. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sure, but not $1B. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> When I made the suggestion to the LT/ADI transition team, nobody >>>>>>>> contradicted me. I'd guess that LT Spice added at least a billion >>>>>>>> dollars to the deal. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Complete and utter nonsense. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Like, Cadence do about $2B revenue. Candace is THE mainstream >>>>>>>> de-facto >>>>>>>> system in IC design. You know, the things that the world runs on. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> You're trying to claim that the LT Freebee is on a par in value. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> LT do about $2B in physical sales. You are effectively trying to >>>>>>>> claim >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> if LTSpice didn't exist, LT would lose like $100Ms of dollars. >>>>>>>> Bullshit. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> You really need to stand back and think about the big picture. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> People buy LT parts because of the performance, not because of a >>>>>>>> simulater. >>>>>>>> Period. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> LTSpice only has to improve sales by say, a million or so to >>>>>>>> justify its >>>>>>>> existence, i.e Mike's salary :-). I agree, it probably does that, >>>>>>>> and such >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> salary pisses me off no end.... >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> In summary, you are jealous of LT Spice and its author. >>>> >>>> The summary, is that some here have absolutely no idea whatsoever of >>>> the >>>> value of some marketing tools. >>>> >>>> AD do about $3B in product. >>>> >>>> How much would it cost to for any company to get the Spice3 code, and >>>> hire >>>> someone to write a GUI for it? Like a few $100k ? >>>> >>>> Hint: you can buy 3rd party GUI tools that have schematic capture as a >>>> drop >>>> in component. >>>> >>>> Do your really think all the other companies are so totally stupid that >>>> they >>>> wouldn't invest a few hundred $ to produce a full featured Spice to >>>> give >>>> away for free if it would net them a $1B more a year in revenue. Get >>>> real. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- Kevin Aylward >>>> http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice >>>> http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html >> >> ADI paid 14.8 big ones for LTC. LTC charges at least 2x what other >> people charge for similar functions. LT Spice helps them do that. >> >> TI's sim stuff won't even run on my PC for some reason. So I use LTC >> parts unless the cost impact is extreme. >> >> TPS54302 is a great little switcher, but I had to spend an afternoon >> breadboard fiddling to figure out all my needed compansations with >> various caps and voltages. I'll use a lot of them, so it was worth it. >> But neither TI's data sheet nor their software was much help. >> >> Colleges use LT Spice all over the world. It has its own culture. >> Culture matters. >>>I'll second all that. 100%.>I don't know how much sales I generated for LTC because of LTSpice but it >likely was 7-digit. And I am only one of many.I just don't believe you. I think you cant evaluate you own design strategy so are deluding yourself. I did used to do board level design, for many years. I can evaluate my design strategy, honestly. I check out all viable parts from the data sheets. It don't take long. Spice will not make you design in any part. The performance of the real part will. Period. End Of. If the fundamental basis of an engineering design is, to use an LT part, because they provided the software, then that would make such a designer a very bad engineer. Its that simple. I don't believe that you are a bad designer. If you don't compare your selection of an LT part, with other vender's parts, then you would make you a bad designer. For a good designer, its just an irritant to get a model together that is good enough to do viability sims that are confirmed on the bench. There is enough free/inexpensive spices around, especially by the competing vendors aligning with say, the likes of TINA and TI, with models that mean alternatives to LT parts can be checked out in spice. -- Kevin Aylward http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html
Reply by ●July 23, 20172017-07-23
"Joerg" <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message news:ethokiFlh4dU1@mid.individual.net...> > Sometimes I have to design mission-critical stuff. There cost is secondary > but you have to simulate the dickens out of it. That is not possible when > using an IC for which no SPICE model is published. >Wait a sec... Where the hell do you find SPICE models that are /approved for mission critical analysis/?! You're lucky if they put any confidence into their models at all ("this model as-is only" or what have you)... Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply by ●July 23, 20172017-07-23
On Sunday, 23 July 2017 02:01:51 UTC+2, k...@notreal.com wrote:> On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund > <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 8:40:24 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: > >> On 2017-07-22 07:43, John Larkin wrote: > >> > On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:42:45 +0100, "Kevin Aylward" > >> > <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote: > >> > > >> >> "John Larkin" wrote in message > >> >> news:2r95nc5ls1rrm7cmp5ptn26kmlrroi6jpp@4ax.com... > >> >> > >> >> On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 21:25:00 +0100, "Kevin Aylward" > >> >> <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> "John Larkin" wrote in message > >> >>> news:m794nclodso7tu7c9bihmic1cuqtuf4ufa@4ax.com... > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>> Companies buy companies because the bought companies are eating > >> >>>>> onto the buying companies revenues. The buying company wants the, now get > >> >>>>> this, the *Customers* of the bought company, and secondly, their > >> >>>>> *products* > >> >>>>> that customers *buy*. LT gets billions of revenue from paying customers, > >> >>>>> that's what ADI want and bought. Dah.... > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> LTSpice is just a nice icing on the cake sort of thing. If it ceased to > >> >>>>> exist, it ut bwould make F'all difference. That's reality. > >> >>> > >> >>>> It's a major sales tool. > >> >>> > >> >>> No. Its a sales tool. > >> >>> > >> >>>> People pay for sales tools. > >> >>> > >> >>> Sure, but not $1B. > >> >>> > >> >>>> When I made the suggestion to the LT/ADI transition team, nobody > >> >>>> contradicted me. I'd guess that LT Spice added at least a billion > >> >>>> dollars to the deal. > >> >>> > >> >>>> Complete and utter nonsense. > >> >>> > >> >>>> Like, Cadence do about $2B revenue. Candace is THE mainstream de-facto > >> >>>> system in IC design. You know, the things that the world runs on. > >> >>> > >> >>>> You're trying to claim that the LT Freebee is on a par in value. > >> >>> > >> >>>> LT do about $2B in physical sales. You are effectively trying to claim > >> >>>> that > >> >>>> if LTSpice didn't exist, LT would lose like $100Ms of dollars. Bullshit. > >> >>> > >> >>>> You really need to stand back and think about the big picture. > >> >>> > >> >>>> People buy LT parts because of the performance, not because of a > >> >>>> simulater. > >> >>>> Period. > >> >>> > >> >>>> LTSpice only has to improve sales by say, a million or so to justify its > >> >>>> existence, i.e Mike's salary :-). I agree, it probably does that, and such > >> >>>> a > >> >>>> salary pisses me off no end.... > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>> In summary, you are jealous of LT Spice and its author. > >> >> > >> >> The summary, is that some here have absolutely no idea whatsoever of the > >> >> value of some marketing tools. > >> >> > >> >> AD do about $3B in product. > >> >> > >> >> How much would it cost to for any company to get the Spice3 code, and hire > >> >> someone to write a GUI for it? Like a few $100k ? > >> >> > >> >> Hint: you can buy 3rd party GUI tools that have schematic capture as a drop > >> >> in component. > >> >> > >> >> Do your really think all the other companies are so totally stupid that they > >> >> wouldn't invest a few hundred $ to produce a full featured Spice to give > >> >> away for free if it would net them a $1B more a year in revenue. Get real. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- Kevin Aylward > >> >> http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice > >> >> http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html > >> > > >> > ADI paid 14.8 big ones for LTC. LTC charges at least 2x what other > >> > people charge for similar functions. LT Spice helps them do that. > >> > > >> > TI's sim stuff won't even run on my PC for some reason. So I use LTC > >> > parts unless the cost impact is extreme. > >> > > >> > TPS54302 is a great little switcher, but I had to spend an afternoon > >> > breadboard fiddling to figure out all my needed compansations with > >> > various caps and voltages. I'll use a lot of them, so it was worth it. > >> > But neither TI's data sheet nor their software was much help. > >> > > >> > Colleges use LT Spice all over the world. It has its own culture. > >> > Culture matters. > >> > > >> > >> I'll second all that. 100%. > >> > >> I don't know how much sales I generated for LTC because of LTSpice but > >> it likely was 7-digit. And I am only one of many. > >> > >I don't believe that for a second > > > >I have worked at 6 different firms and I have never come across any colleagues using a single LT part. Only here at SED > > So you're saying that LT doesn't actually sell parts in the $Bs? Or > are you saying that everyone who uses those $Bs worth of LT parts is > here on SED? >I am saying that no-one I know of in the real world (if SED is not a real world) uses LT parts and I know several hundreds HW designers The wild claim that LTspice would spawn 7 digit generated extra sales is totally unsupported and sounds like something Trump could say, or not even him, like 100 times Trump. Proof it by looking at the 2001 1 billion rise in sales that should be visible in the financial statement (it was 2001 when Switchercad became LTspice, right) Cheers Klaus
Reply by ●July 23, 20172017-07-23
On Sunday, 23 July 2017 07:05:10 UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:> On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 21:00:58 -0700, Jim Thompson > <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > > >On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 20:35:43 -0700, John Larkin > ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > > > >>On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:57:59 -0700, Jim Thompson > >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >> > >>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:39:45 -0700, John Larkin > >>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:11:44 -0700, Jim Thompson > >>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund > >>>>><klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 8:40:24 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: > >>>>>>> On 2017-07-22 07:43, John Larkin wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>[snip] > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Colleges use LT Spice all over the world. It has its own culture. > >>>>>>> > Culture matters. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'll second all that. 100%. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I don't know how much sales I generated for LTC because of LTSpice but > >>>>>>> it likely was 7-digit. And I am only one of many. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>I don't believe that for a second > >>>>>> > >>>>>>I have worked at 6 different firms and I have never come across any colleagues using a single LT part. Only here at SED > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Cheers > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Klaus > >>>>> > >>>>> {>:-} > >>>>> > >>>>>Right down there with Microchip Analog parts ;-) > >>>>> > >>>>> ...Jim Thompson > >>>> > >>>>Some of their parts are quite good, like their comparators. > >>> > >>>[Begin personal opinion (legal disclaimer) mode ;-] > >>> > >>>Their Spice models are the suckiest of the sucky. > >>> > >>> ...Jim Thompson > >> > >>Who needs a Spice model for a comparator? I sure don't. > > > >You apparently only do _one_device_at_a_time_ simulations? > > > >No whole-system simulations? > > > > ...Jim Thompson > > My systems are way too complex to simulate. I only sim one little > section if I think there's any risk. Lots of products don't need > simulation at all; design it, lay out the board, and sell it. For a > complex product, I can do that sooner than someone could sim it. >"Way to complex to simulate"? I think you meant to say you don't want to spend the time to simulate your systems? We routinely do complete system simulations, cross discliplinary ones, mixing motors, power electronics and even C-code) What is complex to simulate is radiated EMC, we have not done that yet, but it's in the pipeline Cheers Klaus
Reply by ●July 23, 20172017-07-23
"Steve Wilson" <no@spam.com> wrote in message news:XnsA7BB1858551AEidtokenpost@69.16.179.22...> You should always include realistic stray capacitances in the inductor > model. > Also, the default ESR is 1 milliohm when you do not specify it yourself. > This > default value does not occur for capacitors. You can end up with a high-Q > resonance at very high frequencies that slow down the sim.You also get more accurate efficiency and output ripple with an accurate inductor model, one that includes skin effect and core loss. If you happen to use Coilcraft parts, you're in luck, because they make such detailed models! Unfortunately, they're completely unusable in transient mode. Until this, that is: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Calc/Coilcraft1.html Which, if you have impedance data for a part, can also be used to create a new model... :)> Another factor is Schottky diodes used as rectifiers. Some models have > components that greatly slow the simulation. Try another diode or just use > the default D.I often find it's useful to put an R+C across schottky diodes, and add ESL (with some R in parallel with that). I have package models for that. Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply by ●July 23, 20172017-07-23
On Sunday, 23 July 2017 13:27:02 UTC+2, Tim Williams wrote:> "Joerg" <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message > news:ethokiFlh4dU1@mid.individual.net... > > > > Sometimes I have to design mission-critical stuff. There cost is secondary > > but you have to simulate the dickens out of it. That is not possible when > > using an IC for which no SPICE model is published. > > > > Wait a sec... > > Where the hell do you find SPICE models that are /approved for mission > critical analysis/?! > > You're lucky if they put any confidence into their models at all ("this > model as-is only" or what have you)...We use both Saber, PSpice and LTspice (LTspice only 2 guys) I was involved in modelling of a LTspice, and we found plenty of differences from the analog world to the simulation. I never trust a simulation without a measurement Some agencies, will allow it. We have done simulation that UL approved, but very simple ones that can be checked for accuracy Cheers Klaus
Reply by ●July 23, 20172017-07-23
On Sunday, July 23, 2017 at 11:58:44 AM UTC+2, Kevin Aylward wrote:> >wrote in message > >news:2eb4a887-1683-4204-9a70-6606e5e44acc@googlegroups.com... > > On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 9:42:58 AM UTC+2, Kevin Aylward wrote: > [..] > >> How much would it cost to for any company to get the Spice3 code, > >> and hire someone to write a GUI for it? Like a few $100k ? > > >Looking e.g. at the ngspice open source project, to get from the > >SPICE3 code to something comparable to LTspice takes at least > >50 man-years, and then we are not talking code monkeys. > > er... ngspice *exists*. Dah.... Anyone can use it and give it away. So that > part of the deal is *already* done.You said starting from SPICE3, not ngspice. [..]> It took me 4 years part time in *evenings* to do 150k lines of code to do > the GUI. However...today...there are class libraries that do it all for > you!!! > > No one needs to write a GUI from scratch today. > > There is a 3rd party gui toolkit, that generates the exact same drawing > capabilities that is in Electronic Workbench/Multisim. Its been available > for over 15 years. A grand or so, I believe. > > "Build your own Multisim like circuit simulation and design product" > > http://www.ucancode.net/Circuit-Design-interactive-simulation-Animation-analysis-layout-visualization-VC-Source-Code.htm > > E-XD++ toolkitIt looks like shit. Besides that, a screenshot is not the same as a working GUI for a circuit simulator. How about its library and attribute editors, its netlister, its help system, its macro facilities etc.? -marcel
