On 26 May 2017 12:15:08 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:>Jim Thompson wrote... >> >>On 26 May 2017 10:08:31 -0700, Winfield Hill >><hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote: >> >>>Jim Thompson wrote... >>>> >>>> As soon as Analog CMOS appeared, PMOS body connections in >>>> separate wells became common. Also we often have "dual-well" >>>> processes, allowing arbitrary NMOS body connections as well. >>>> >>>> The NPN/PNP-like arrows are totally incorrect, but certainly >>>> suffice for hackers >:-} >>> >>> If you're playing with the body substrate, full >>> symbols are called for. But I've seen plenty of >>> use of the simplified symbol in IC designs where >>> they all simply go to their respective rails. >> >> Working schematics, or datasheets? Examples? > > Few of us have access to an IC engineer's actual > working schematics, so we're talking published > articles, datasheets, and similar materials.I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet. Examples? ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. "It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols?
Started by ●May 22, 2017
Reply by ●May 26, 20172017-05-26
Reply by ●May 26, 20172017-05-26
Jim Thompson wrote...> > I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet. > Examples?LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012 OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013 OPA192, rev e, Figure 63. OPA197, Figure 50. OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49. SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MSOFETs) LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001 LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a comparator. Just skinning the surface. -- Thanks, - Win
Reply by ●May 26, 20172017-05-26
On 26 May 2017 13:41:31 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:>Jim Thompson wrote... >> >> I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet. >> Examples? > > LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012 > OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013 > OPA192, rev e, Figure 63. > OPA197, Figure 50. > OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49. > SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MSOFETs) > LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001 > LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle > > That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a > comparator. Just skinning the surface.OK. Whatever rings your chime... non-standard for the hackers >:-} ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. "It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
Reply by ●May 26, 20172017-05-26
Jim Thompson wrote...> Winfield Hill wrote: >> Jim Thompson wrote... >>> >>> I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet. >>> Examples? >> >> LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012 >> OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013 >> OPA192, rev e, Figure 63. >> OPA197, Figure 50. >> OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49. >> SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MOSFETs) >> LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001 >> LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle >> >> That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a >> comparator. Just skinning the surface. > > OK. Whatever rings your chime... non-standard > for the hackers >:-}Yep, TI is one massive 80-billion-dollar hacker. I figured you'd blame Massachusetts liberals. Standards evolve, Jim. Although I found a 2001 example (earlier ones no doubt exist), most were within the last five years. Picking up steam now, maybe our book will push it a bit. Also, no more p-channel gate circles were seen after 2001. -- Thanks, - Win
Reply by ●May 26, 20172017-05-26
On 26 May 2017 19:05:09 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:>Jim Thompson wrote... >> Winfield Hill wrote: >>> Jim Thompson wrote... >>>> >>>> I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet. >>>> Examples? >>> >>> LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012 >>> OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013 >>> OPA192, rev e, Figure 63. >>> OPA197, Figure 50. >>> OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49. >>> SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MOSFETs) >>> LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001 >>> LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle >>> >>> That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a >>> comparator. Just skinning the surface. >> >> OK. Whatever rings your chime... non-standard >> for the hackers >:-} > > Yep, TI is one massive 80-billion-dollar hacker. > I figured you'd blame Massachusetts liberals. > Standards evolve, Jim. Although I found a 2001 > example (earlier ones no doubt exist), most were > within the last five years. Picking up steam > now, maybe our book will push it a bit. Also, no > more p-channel gate circles were seen after 2001.How do you rationalize that "diode" representation with a bidirectional analog switch? ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. "It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
Reply by ●May 27, 20172017-05-27
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in message news:9jogiclorc78bit7nbg2o2q0bi1v8ou4hv@4ax.com...> It's only confusing to you.Larkin once again demonstrating willfull ignorance to the example provided in the OP. Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply by ●May 27, 20172017-05-27
"Winfield Hill" <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:oga3tr01qp1@drn.newsguy.com...> Jim Thompson wrote... >> >> I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet. >> Examples? > > LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012 > OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013 > OPA192, rev e, Figure 63. > OPA197, Figure 50. > OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49. > SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MSOFETs) > LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001 > LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle > > That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a > comparator. Just skinning the surface.Hah! LP5907 shows a diode junction going into a channel, with an antiparallel diode across it! Which one is it? Apparently it's a diode both ways! :-D Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply by ●May 27, 20172017-05-27
Tim Williams wrote...> > Winfield Hill wrote .. >> Jim Thompson wrote... >>> >>> I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet. >>> Examples? >> >> LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012 >> OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013 >> OPA192, rev e, Figure 63. >> OPA197, Figure 50. >> OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49. >> SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MSOFETs) >> LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001 >> LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle >> >> That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a >> comparator. Just skinning the surface. > > Hah! LP5907 shows a diode junction going into a > channel, with an antiparallel diode across it! > > Which one is it? Apparently it's a diode both ways! :-DNo, it's done correctly. The arrow on the FET is for current-flow direction and tells us this is a p-channel FET acting as the pass transistor. The body diode is correctly shown. If the input falls below the output, the diode will conduct. Adding a diode like this is often recommended for other IC regulators, so it's useful to know one is included. -- Thanks, - Win
Reply by ●May 27, 20172017-05-27
On Sat, 27 May 2017 06:10:57 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:>"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in message >news:9jogiclorc78bit7nbg2o2q0bi1v8ou4hv@4ax.com... >> It's only confusing to you. > >Larkin once again demonstrating willfull ignorance to the example provided >in the OP. > >TimYou are missing the big picture: It doesn't matter. The electrons don't care what you drew on the schematic or what words you used to describe anything. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●May 27, 20172017-05-27
Winfield Hill wrote on 5/27/2017 8:51 AM:> Tim Williams wrote... >> >> Winfield Hill wrote .. >>> Jim Thompson wrote... >>>> >>>> I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet. >>>> Examples? >>> >>> LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012 >>> OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013 >>> OPA192, rev e, Figure 63. >>> OPA197, Figure 50. >>> OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49. >>> SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MSOFETs) >>> LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001 >>> LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle >>> >>> That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a >>> comparator. Just skinning the surface. >> >> Hah! LP5907 shows a diode junction going into a >> channel, with an antiparallel diode across it! >> >> Which one is it? Apparently it's a diode both ways! :-D > > No, it's done correctly. The arrow on the FET is > for current-flow direction and tells us this is a > p-channel FET acting as the pass transistor. The > body diode is correctly shown. If the input falls > below the output, the diode will conduct. Adding a > diode like this is often recommended for other IC > regulators, so it's useful to know one is included.I've been reading this thread and I can't say I get what all the fuss is about. The symbols you are saying aren't needed have two more line segments. Why is it so important to remove them? We don't draw symbols by hand very often anymore. Where is the advantage of making the symbol very slightly more simple? -- Rick C
