Kevin Foster wrote:> I have tried various online calculators and get inconsistent results. > Maybe because the values are too high. > > Could someone please tell me the correct way determine how many turns > are required on a coil with the following specs to obtain a resonant > frequency of 8 (eight) Hz? > > 30 awg enamel coated copper wire > > Laid multi-row, multi-layer into a 1 metre diameter hoop made of 25mm > wide by 16mm deep rectangular PVC trunk conduit. > > From this I can calculate the length and weight of wire required. > > Kevin FosterDoesn't anyone see a problem with this "question"? 1) the cross-section spec, with wire size, gives one the number of turns. Which can then give length and weight. 2) the inductance then can be calculated given the size specs. Note frequency is not involved.
Calculate Resonant Frequency Large Loop Coil
Started by ●January 13, 2017
Reply by ●January 15, 20172017-01-15
Reply by ●January 15, 20172017-01-15
On Thursday, January 12, 2017 at 11:28:01 PM UTC-8, Kevin Foster wrote:> Could someone please tell me the correct way determine how many turns > are required on a coil with the following specs to obtain a resonant > frequency of 8 (eight) Hz?If it's supposed to be the Schumann resonance, that frequency wanders around. Why use a fixed, non-tunable coil? Is this a detector? Or an electromagnet? If a detector, are you sure you don't just want a search-coil, a sensor-loop? Then either tune it with capacitances connected in parallel, or just amplify the output and handle the received signal in electronics (bandpass, etc.) If it's to be an electromagnet *generating* a b-field, then resonance isn't the critical factor for producing a large field. Instead, wattage is the limiting number, and you'd want to know the field produced when you're *not* frying the coil. For the hoop-size you're using, a hundred watts might heat it quite a bit, giving ~700 amp-turns from the values below. Doesn't matter whether it's resonant or not, since the power supply still has to provide the hundred watts regardless. Also, doubling the total copper will double the field strength, if operated at constant max wattage.> > 30 awg enamel coated copper wire >Completely fill your conduit, and *probably* the resonant frequency will still be far, far higher than 8Hz. (Where did your 30ga size come from? Are you certain it's not supposed to be much smaller?) First calculate the lbs of #30 wire needed to fill up your plastic form entirely. Something like 90turns/layer, 60layers, 20lbs or so, roughly 6000 turns? 62,000 feet, 6,400ohms. So, wind 10lbs onto the hoop, and measure the self-resonance. You'll then know if you're in the ballpark, or instead will you need hundreds of lbs?
Reply by ●January 15, 20172017-01-15
On Thursday, January 12, 2017 at 11:28:01 PM UTC-8, Kevin Foster wrote:> > 30 awg enamel coated copper wire >Anybody have a 10lbs spool of #30? Leave it on the spool, dig out the inner end, and see if you can measure inductance and self-resonance! :) If it's many orders of magnitude away from 8Hz, then dumping 10lbs spool onto a 1 meter hoop-coil won't get you down far enough.
Reply by ●January 15, 20172017-01-15
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 18:27:54 +1100, Kevin Foster <kfoster@internode.com> wrote:>Could someone please tell me the correct way determine how many turns >are required on a coil with the following specs to obtain a resonant >frequency of 8 (eight) Hz?I can't answer your questions, but perhaps you can duplicate this loop: <http://www.vlf.it/inductor/inductor.htm> <https://basharspacetimeantenna.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/existing-devices-that-tap-into-schumann-resonance-frequencies/> The original site has evaporated, but I found this in the archives: <http://web.archive.org/web/20041204034025/http://wavelab.homestead.com/Schumanns.html> As I might misunderstand it, the fundamental is 7.8 Hz, with harmonics and oddities appear at 14, 20, 26, 33, 39, and 45 Hz. If you tune your antenna to roughly the middle of range, and make sure your Q is *LESS* than: f/BW = 15Hz / 45Hz = 0.33 you should be able to pickup all the expected frequencies. Here's an example of what I would guess happens with a magnetometer resonated to 7.8Hz: <http://sedonanomalies.weebly.com/uploads/5/9/0/0/5900617/9765740.jpg?513> I have my doubts about this construction because the loop is not appear to be shielded and therefore may pickup E field noise. After wading through the global consciousness rubbish, the Schumann resonance monitors, which I've excavated with Google search, use a magnetometer or induction coil: <http://www.carisma.ca/backgrounder/carisma-induction-coils> There are plenty examples of induction coils available, but little on using loops: <https://www.google.com/search?q=schumann+resonance+induction+coil&tbm=isch> We have a local group that does Schumann resonance global conciousness monitoring. Time permitting, I could ask and see if they have any information, but it appears that they're using other sources for their data: <https://www.heartmath.org/research/global-coherence/gcms-live-data/> -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●January 15, 20172017-01-15
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 09:33:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:>We have a local group that does Schumann resonance global conciousness >monitoring. Time permitting, I could ask and see if they have any >information, but it appears that they're using other sources for their >data: ><https://www.heartmath.org/research/global-coherence/gcms-live-data/>Oops. I guessed wrong. Heartmath has their own monitoring station. <https://www.heartmath.org/research/global-coherence/> See Fig 11.2 at: <https://www.heartmath.org/research/science-of-the-heart/global-coherence-research/> Looks like a magnetometer. Photos of a monitoring site under construction: <https://www.heartmath.org/gci/gcms/making-of-a-sensor-site/> -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●January 15, 20172017-01-15
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 09:33:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:>On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 18:27:54 +1100, Kevin Foster ><kfoster@internode.com> wrote: > >>Could someone please tell me the correct way determine how many turns >>are required on a coil with the following specs to obtain a resonant >>frequency of 8 (eight) Hz? > >I can't answer your questions, but perhaps you can duplicate this >loop: ><http://www.vlf.it/inductor/inductor.htm> ><https://basharspacetimeantenna.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/existing-devices-that-tap-into-schumann-resonance-frequencies/> >The original site has evaporated, but I found this in the archives: ><http://web.archive.org/web/20041204034025/http://wavelab.homestead.com/Schumanns.html> > >As I might misunderstand it, the fundamental is 7.8 Hz, with harmonics >and oddities appear at 14, 20, 26, 33, 39, and 45 Hz. If you tune >your antenna to roughly the middle of range, and make sure your Q is >*LESS* than: > f/BW = 15Hz / 45Hz = 0.33 >you should be able to pickup all the expected frequencies. Here's an >example of what I would guess happens with a magnetometer resonated to >7.8Hz: ><http://sedonanomalies.weebly.com/uploads/5/9/0/0/5900617/9765740.jpg?513> > >I have my doubts about this construction because the loop is not >appear to be shielded and therefore may pickup E field noise. > >After wading through the global consciousness rubbish, the Schumann >resonance monitors, which I've excavated with Google search, use a >magnetometer or induction coil: ><http://www.carisma.ca/backgrounder/carisma-induction-coils> >There are plenty examples of induction coils available, but little on >using loops: ><https://www.google.com/search?q=schumann+resonance+induction+coil&tbm=isch> > >We have a local group that does Schumann resonance global conciousness >monitoring. Time permitting, I could ask and see if they have any >information, but it appears that they're using other sources for their >data: ><https://www.heartmath.org/research/global-coherence/gcms-live-data/>Looks like amplitudes are all in arbitrary units! Natural Schumann fields are roughly 1e-8 lower than the earth's static magnetic field. So moving your head, walking, chewing, driving, your pulse, any motion, motion of nearby magnetic objects, will expose your body to relatively huge AC fields. Minute motion of pickup coils in the static field will induce signals bigger than the Schumann stuff. That could create some interesting mistakes, like correlating with earthquakes. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●January 15, 20172017-01-15
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:24:37 -0800, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>Looks like amplitudes are all in arbitrary units!Actually, I'm surprised that they still use numbers. Numbers are so confining and rigid. To really become one with the global consciousness, one must shed all such mechanistic approaches to reality and simply "feel" the fields. Of course, since feelings are subjective and have no units of measure, they would be difficult to quantify. Note: I'm trying to delay climbing onto my roof and applying a gallon of wet patch to where I suspect the leaks have moved. The above is the best I could conjure under the circumstances.>Natural Schumann fields are roughly 1e-8 lower than the earth's static >magnetic field. So moving your head, walking, chewing, driving, your >pulse, any motion, motion of nearby magnetic objects, will expose your >body to relatively huge AC fields.Yep, although I didn't realize they were that weak. The Wikipedia article suggests 10^-7 weaker: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schumann_resonances#Measurements> "Similarly, the amplitude of the Schumann resonance magnetic field (~1 picotesla) is many orders of magnitude smaller than the Earth's magnetic field (~30-50 microteslas)">Minute motion of pickup coils in the static field will induce signals >bigger than the Schumann stuff. That could create some interesting >mistakes, like correlating with earthquakes.One of the articles wiggles out of that problem by suggesting that: <https://www.heartmath.org/research/science-of-the-heart/global-coherence-research/> "A growing body of data also suggests that changes occur in ionospheric activity before earthquake activity." - Uyeda, S., et al., Geoelectric potential changes: possible precursors to earthquakes in Japan. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 2000. 97(9): p. 4561-6. - Kopytenko, Yu A., et al. "Detection of ultra-low-frequency emissions connected with the Spitak earthquake and its aftershock activity, based on geomagnetic pulsations data at Dusheti and Vardzia observatories." Physics of the Earth and Planetary Interiors 77.1(1993): p. 85-95 Instead of a source of error, the changes in the field magically become a precursor, thus purifying the data. Argh. Time to patch the roof. If you don't hear from me, I fell off the roof. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●January 15, 20172017-01-15
On 16/01/17 04:58, Jeff Liebermann wrote:>> We have a local group that does Schumann resonance global conciousness >> monitoring... >> <https://www.heartmath.org/research/global-coherence/gcms-live-data/>My god, I scanned that page quickly, but I feel dumber already.
Reply by ●January 15, 20172017-01-15
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 08:27:19 +1100, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:>On 16/01/17 04:58, Jeff Liebermann wrote: >>> We have a local group that does Schumann resonance global conciousness >>> monitoring... >>> <https://www.heartmath.org/research/global-coherence/gcms-live-data/> > >My god, I scanned that page quickly, but I feel dumber already.That means that you are not connected to the global consciousness (also known as "the force") and need to have your brain retuned to the proper Schumann frequencies so that it may resonate with all the others trying to harmonize their thoughts. This is normally done by inhaling, ingested, or injecting various controlled substances, but can also be accomplished by merely beating ones head against the wall. Note that the enlightenment and visions achieved are only temporary. Ok, break is over and back to reality. Onto the roof I go with another half-gallon of wet patch. Beating my head against the wall might be more fun. Grumble... -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●January 15, 20172017-01-15
On 15/01/17 23:42, Bill Beaty wrote:> On Thursday, January 12, 2017 at 11:28:01 PM UTC-8, Kevin Foster wrote: >> Could someone please tell me the correct way determine how many turns >> are required on a coil with the following specs to obtain a resonant >> frequency of 8 (eight) Hz? > > If it's supposed to be the Schumann resonance, that frequency wanders around. Why use a fixed, non-tunable coil? > > Is this a detector? Or an electromagnet? If a detector, are you sure you don't just want a search-coil, a sensor-loop? Then either tune it with capacitances connected in parallel, or just amplify the output and handle the received signal in electronics (bandpass, etc.) > > If it's to be an electromagnet *generating* a b-field, then resonance isn't the critical factor for producing a large field. Instead, wattage is the limiting number, and you'd want to know the field produced when you're *not* frying the coil. For the hoop-size you're using, a hundred watts might heat it quite a bit, giving ~700 amp-turns from the values below. Doesn't matter whether it's resonant or not, since the power supply still has to provide the hundred watts regardless. Also, doubling the total copper will double the field strength, if operated at constant max wattage. > >> >> 30 awg enamel coated copper wire >> > > Completely fill your conduit, and *probably* the resonant frequency will still be far, far higher than 8Hz. (Where did your 30ga size come from? Are you certain it's not supposed to be much smaller?) > > First calculate the lbs of #30 wire needed to fill up your plastic form entirely. Something like 90turns/layer, 60layers, 20lbs or so, roughly 6000 turns? 62,000 feet, 6,400ohms. > > So, wind 10lbs onto the hoop, and measure the self-resonance. You'll then know if you're in the ballpark, or instead will you need hundreds of lbs? >Thanks Bill. That is all good advice. I was looking into making the output coil resonant because I could then use it interchangeably as an input (detection) coil. I thought it might be easier to fabricate than a solenoid which requires a lot more wire for a similar frequency response. BTW the 8Hz resonant solenoids I already have only weigh about 5Kg with their Mu cores fitted. Resistance is 19K. I resonate them with a 4.7uF cap to center on 8Hz. That's a "conventional" setup for geomagnetic monitoring. Kevin Foster
