On 22/12/2016 04:48, rickman wrote:> On 12/14/2016 1:57 AM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote: >> Unfortunately thing like that are like toasters. One IC, surface mount >> at least, maybe even using the board as a substrate with a glop of >> epoxy over it. If you can't get the board it is over. >> >> If it has the markings to read it as a regular old time caliper you >> can use it like that. Or you can use it as a transfer device. Also, if >> it has the 30 degree cut in the depth gauge it also makes a good tool >> to measure the diameter of a hole. >> >> What almost amazes me is that these things can tell the position even >> with the battery out. Mine has a zero button but that is almost not >> necessary. I cranked it out to like 3" and took the battery out and >> when I put it back in it remembered where it was. Is this by memory or >> some sort of measurement technique of which I am not aware ? They talk >> of capacitance but there is no way that could be accurate at 6". >> >> Mine is an elcheapo, but it does allow for measurement without the >> battery, and I think most do. And they are cheap so you can just buy >> another one. I hate to say that but when something is unfixable it is >> unfixable. You can either get the part or not. You can hound the >> company, and they might even agree to "fix" it for you but what will >> happen is they will replace the unit. I work for factory service (not >> there) and when something cannot be fixed we just offer a replacement >> at a discounted cost. >> >> I wish we had more control over what the actual manufacturers do but >> we only bought half the company, what's more all the stuff is made by >> Apex, this company is just a US front. No more detail on that. >> >> You might find a used one online with bent jaws or something and be >> able to use the board from that. But there is no ordering "IC 12", >> replacing it and having it work again. >> >> Nother thing to consider is what these things cost. Mitutoyo is a >> really good company and I have some of their micrometers and other >> things, but the fact is they are selling their name if you cannot get >> parts. So for, I think $16, Harbor Freight or one of them has one that >> is so similar in performance you'll never notice any difference. >> >> Or just read a real caliper that has the scale on the side that gives >> you thousandths and forget about this digital shit and you will never >> have this problem again. >> >> On this page the first picture shows a caliper that can read down to >> the thousandths : >> >> http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-read-a-vernier-caliper/step2/Course-reading-1/ >> >> >> Forget the text. The top of the picture shows a different scale which >> is made specifically to reveal the next decimal place. Whichever line >> lines up with a line on the main scale indicates the next decimal >> place. They achieve that by using nine lines in the exact space of >> ten. It does not matter which line lines up with the main scale, just >> count it up and it is the next decimal place. >> >> I know this is hard to understand for modern people, but give it a >> try. The battery died in my digital caliper about two years ago and I >> never bothered to replace it. Plus I got better calipers laying around >> anyway. They just aren't digital and you have to really look at them >> to read them, it is not all done for you. I also have a pretty full >> set of micrometers, none digital. >> >> These conveniences are nice but make us lazy. > > What is wrong with dial calipers? I have a digital caliper, but I have > to take the battery out each time I'm done with it or it dies.I have two types of cheap calipers. One type really does turn off so I can leave the battery in it and it lasts for years. They other type is like yours, it keeps the electronics on to keep track of the position even when it is "turned off" which just blanks the screen, and it flattens the battery unless the battery is removed. Obviously I prefer the first type. I think the second type is trying to act like the Mitutoyo ones which keep track of the position even with the power off. The Mitutoyo ones don't flatten the battery - they have an absolute encoder so they don't need any electronics to keep track of the position when the power is off. (They patented how it works, you can read how it works if you figure out which patent it is.)> I used > to think the case was pressing the on button, but eventually I realize > the durn thing just never turns off! So I use my dial caliper which got > dropped once and reads 1 or 2 thou when closed. Not a problem for most > of my work. > > The dial caliper came with a micrometer which I used the other day to > measure the thickness of some Chinese 18 gauge wire which is really more > like 20 gauge. I didn't contact the ebay seller early enough so they > won't refund the money. So I'm going to buy more of the same and then > give him shit. Do they *really* have to cut corners so much that they > aren't even selling what they claim?Cut the end off with flush cutters or shears and check whether it is even made of copper - I was disappointed to buy some which is copper clad aluminium.
mitutoyo 6" caliper with bad curcuit board
Started by ●December 14, 2016
Reply by ●December 22, 20162016-12-22
Reply by ●December 22, 20162016-12-22
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 23:26:28 +1100, Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:>On 22/12/2016 04:48, rickman wrote: >> On 12/14/2016 1:57 AM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote: >>> Unfortunately thing like that are like toasters. One IC, surface mount >>> at least, maybe even using the board as a substrate with a glop of >>> epoxy over it. If you can't get the board it is over. >>> >>> If it has the markings to read it as a regular old time caliper you >>> can use it like that. Or you can use it as a transfer device. Also, if >>> it has the 30 degree cut in the depth gauge it also makes a good tool >>> to measure the diameter of a hole. >>> >>> What almost amazes me is that these things can tell the position even >>> with the battery out. Mine has a zero button but that is almost not >>> necessary. I cranked it out to like 3" and took the battery out and >>> when I put it back in it remembered where it was. Is this by memory or >>> some sort of measurement technique of which I am not aware ? They talk >>> of capacitance but there is no way that could be accurate at 6". >>> >>> Mine is an elcheapo, but it does allow for measurement without the >>> battery, and I think most do. And they are cheap so you can just buy >>> another one. I hate to say that but when something is unfixable it is >>> unfixable. You can either get the part or not. You can hound the >>> company, and they might even agree to "fix" it for you but what will >>> happen is they will replace the unit. I work for factory service (not >>> there) and when something cannot be fixed we just offer a replacement >>> at a discounted cost. >>> >>> I wish we had more control over what the actual manufacturers do but >>> we only bought half the company, what's more all the stuff is made by >>> Apex, this company is just a US front. No more detail on that. >>> >>> You might find a used one online with bent jaws or something and be >>> able to use the board from that. But there is no ordering "IC 12", >>> replacing it and having it work again. >>> >>> Nother thing to consider is what these things cost. Mitutoyo is a >>> really good company and I have some of their micrometers and other >>> things, but the fact is they are selling their name if you cannot get >>> parts. So for, I think $16, Harbor Freight or one of them has one that >>> is so similar in performance you'll never notice any difference. >>> >>> Or just read a real caliper that has the scale on the side that gives >>> you thousandths and forget about this digital shit and you will never >>> have this problem again. >>> >>> On this page the first picture shows a caliper that can read down to >>> the thousandths : >>> >>> http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-read-a-vernier-caliper/step2/Course-reading-1/ >>> >>> >>> Forget the text. The top of the picture shows a different scale which >>> is made specifically to reveal the next decimal place. Whichever line >>> lines up with a line on the main scale indicates the next decimal >>> place. They achieve that by using nine lines in the exact space of >>> ten. It does not matter which line lines up with the main scale, just >>> count it up and it is the next decimal place. >>> >>> I know this is hard to understand for modern people, but give it a >>> try. The battery died in my digital caliper about two years ago and I >>> never bothered to replace it. Plus I got better calipers laying around >>> anyway. They just aren't digital and you have to really look at them >>> to read them, it is not all done for you. I also have a pretty full >>> set of micrometers, none digital. >>> >>> These conveniences are nice but make us lazy. >> >> What is wrong with dial calipers? I have a digital caliper, but I have >> to take the battery out each time I'm done with it or it dies. >I have two types of cheap calipers. One type really does turn off so I >can leave the battery in it and it lasts for years. They other type is >like yours, it keeps the electronics on to keep track of the position >even when it is "turned off" which just blanks the screen, and it >flattens the battery unless the battery is removed. Obviously I prefer >the first type. I think the second type is trying to act like the >Mitutoyo ones which keep track of the position even with the power off. >The Mitutoyo ones don't flatten the battery - they have an absolute >encoder so they don't need any electronics to keep track of the position >when the power is off. (They patented how it works, you can read how it >works if you figure out which patent it is.)Who cares whether they keep position between power cycles? Just zero them before use (I always check zero, anyway). The problem, like many electronic gadgets, is that the power button is "soft". I don't care if the device is line powered but it matters if it's only a button cell. I just use a dial caliper (have both imperial and metric) and dispense with all the dead battery nonsense.> >> I used >> to think the case was pressing the on button, but eventually I realize >> the durn thing just never turns off! So I use my dial caliper which got >> dropped once and reads 1 or 2 thou when closed. Not a problem for most >> of my work. >> >> The dial caliper came with a micrometer which I used the other day to >> measure the thickness of some Chinese 18 gauge wire which is really more >> like 20 gauge. I didn't contact the ebay seller early enough so they >> won't refund the money. So I'm going to buy more of the same and then >> give him shit. Do they *really* have to cut corners so much that they >> aren't even selling what they claim? >Cut the end off with flush cutters or shears and check whether it is >even made of copper - I was disappointed to buy some which is copper >clad aluminium.Or don't buy anything but "toys" on eBay. I don't buy electrical stuff from HF, either.
Reply by ●December 22, 20162016-12-22
What has happened to this world, why has electronics and technology in general gotten so dam difficult to repair? The average consumer electronics or even general goods have become harder to repair as time goes by. For the average person to even try to understand basic CNC manufacturing or trying to repair a curcuit board which gives very few clues as to where and what is needed to make it work again are just not available or even understandable anymore. The demand from the consumer has been so great for bigger better faster and cheaper has made too many goods obselete well before they are worn. Along with this obsolescence come tiny unfixable puzzle pieces that must be thrown out and not even considered for repair. It scares me to buy anything new. New technology has its benifits but repair is not one one of them
Reply by ●December 23, 20162016-12-23
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 19:10:39 -0800 (PST), grbrown6@gmail.com wrote:>What has happened to this world, why has electronics and technology >in general gotten so dam difficult to repair? The average consumer >electronics or even general goods have become harder to repair as >time goes by. For the average person to even try to understand basic >CNC manufacturing or trying to repair a curcuit board which gives >very few clues as to where and what is needed to make it work again >are just not available or even understandable anymore. The demand >from the consumer has been so great for bigger better faster and >cheaper has made too many goods obselete well before they are worn. >Along with this obsolescence come tiny unfixable puzzle pieces >that must be thrown out and not even considered for repair. It scares >me to buy anything new. New technology has its benifits but repair >is not one one of them.Putting on my marketeering hat... welcome to the brave new world of modern consumer electronics. Everything you mention is quite real and will become worse. You ask for reasons (not in any particular order): 1. Miniaturization has made devices more powerful, compact, integrated, and smaller, which require specialized tools to repair. The repair tools that I use today, did not exist 25 year ago. 2. Progress today is so quick and product lifetime so short, that it is not unusual for 3 to 4 replacement products to be in the development pipeline at the same time. If a problem is found with the current product, you have only to wait one product cycle time (about 6 months) for the next product to hit the market and obsolete the current product. With such a system, there's little or no incentive for manufacturers to fix any problems with the current product. 3. The GUM (great unwashed masses) will pay for features and functions, but expect bug fixes to be free. Since there's no revenue in fixing bugs, manufacturers are reluctant to fix any problems unless there's a product liability, safety, or class action issue involved. 4. Features and functions get added faster than bugs get fixed. The result is a giant bloated pile of bugs. Eventually, the bloat reaches some critical size, where no amount of added features or functions will increase reliability or sales. At this time, the manufacturer starts the learning curve over from scratch by embarrassing a new technology, and we are blessed with a fresh class of problems to fix. 5. Standards and regulatory compliance have tended to make competitive products quite similar. The only way to compete is on the basis of price or proprietary enhancements. Competing on the basis of price is a good way to kill the company as a race to the bottom. The proprietary enhancements are where most of the repair problems lurk. 6. Many companies are structured for only one purpose... to make the company sellable as a merger or acquisition. That means the company needs to look good on the prospectus. Products with useful lives measured in months are acceptable if the buyer doesn't notice the problem. It's not unusually for the a buyer to kill a few products, not because they are insufficiently profitable, but simply because they don't work or are so unreliable that they are furiously failing. 7. Using simulation software, it is now possible to predict the lifetime of specific electronic components operating under known conditions. For example, the lifetime of electrolyics can be estimated: <http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tech-center/life-calculators.aspx> The current thinking is that if a component lasts longer than the warranty period, it is over designed. Over design costs money, so the engineer is told to use a LESS reliable component in it's place, with the eventual goal to make have all the components fail at the same time, just after the warranty expires. When I try to fix the usual bulging electrolytic capacitors in such a product, I don't find one or two that can economically be replaced, but dozens, which cost too much repair time to be economical. 8. Component manufacturers cannot economically stock and produce repair parts forever. Eventually, most devices are no longer used in new designs, making them end-of-life, legacy, or obsolete components. Finding these parts for repairing old units can be difficult, expensive, or both. I find myself buying from component cannibals on eBay far too often. 9. The useful life of many products are intentionally limited by corporate policy. For example, Apple has declared that anything older than 5 years is a "vintage" product. Anything over 7 years is "obsolete". <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624> After 5 years, even Apple service centers cannot obtain parts from Apple. These service centers are required by Apple to use only new parts for repairs and therefore cannot scrap old boards or buy from the eBay component cannibals. 10. Many devices require specialized test fixtures and alignment jigs in order to do a proper repair. Some of these can be cloned, but in general, they have to factory calibrated. When a company decides to no longer "support" a product, all it has to do is scrap the test and alignment fixtures, and it can't be repaired, even by the factory. 11. Many designs are sufficiently complex, esoteric (weird), and undocumented, that it requires an expert with long term experience to perform repairs. When that person retires or dies, the product dies with them. I've been on mailing lists and forums, where the sum total of the collective product knowledge was in the mind of one person. 12. The low price of new products versus the cost of repair has made it more economical to purchase a new product than to repair an old product. In computahs, todays customers will buy a new machine if the cost of repair is greater than about 60% of the cost of repair. The worst case is the local county administration, which fired their in-house IT and repair department, and will replace a broken machine if the cost is more than about 20% of the cost of a new machine. The local recycler often gets 3 year old Dell and HP desktops, with nothing much wrong. I must admit that this derangement is better for the country than when they were repairing machines, which tended to promote perpetual obsolescence. It was not unusual to see Windoze 3.1 machines well into the 21st century. 13. Recycling programs have tended to promote replacement instead of repair. <https://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto> Recycling (tossing) old machines is now considered a good thing, while repair is perceived as collecting junk. 14. Some manufacturers have intentionally designed products that are difficult or impossible to repair. Apple didn't win any awards for filling their MacBooks with tar for securing batteries. Essentially, it's now a throw away product with a 5.000 year life. 15. With short product lifetimes, most manufacturers cut corners on documentation. Nobody reads the instructions anyway. I suspect that without the pile of legal documents, warranty disclaimers, and read me first documents, the new product boxes would not have any paperwork included. Conspicuously missing is any repair documentation. Dell, HP, and Lenovo are some of the few that include disassembly instructions. However, I still find myself looking on Youtube or iFixit for model specific disassembly instructions: <https://www.ifixit.com/Guide> Oops... gotta run... -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●December 24, 20162016-12-24
Thank you Jeff, you have cleared the air on this one for sure. Money gobbling corporations and their ways smell badly. It is very poor business for the public but it must show a profit or it would not keep them open. Technology has many warts.
Reply by ●November 28, 20232023-11-28
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Reply by ●November 28, 20232023-11-28
On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 11:48:41 AM UTC-6, rickman wrote:> On 12/14/2016 1:57 AM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote: > > Unfortunately thing like that are like toasters. One IC, surface mount at least, maybe even using the board as a substrate with a glop of epoxy over it. If you can't get the board it is over. > > > > If it has the markings to read it as a regular old time caliper you can use it like that. Or you can use it as a transfer device. Also, if it has the 30 degree cut in the depth gauge it also makes a good tool to measure the diameter of a hole. > > > > What almost amazes me is that these things can tell the position even with the battery out. Mine has a zero button but that is almost not necessary. I cranked it out to like 3" and took the battery out and when I put it back in it remembered where it was. Is this by memory or some sort of measurement technique of which I am not aware ? They talk of capacitance but there is no way that could be accurate at 6". > > > > Mine is an elcheapo, but it does allow for measurement without the battery, and I think most do. And they are cheap so you can just buy another one. I hate to say that but when something is unfixable it is unfixable. You can either get the part or not. You can hound the company, and they might even agree to "fix" it for you but what will happen is they will replace the unit. I work for factory service (not there) and when something cannot be fixed we just offer a replacement at a discounted cost. > > > > I wish we had more control over what the actual manufacturers do but we only bought half the company, what's more all the stuff is made by Apex, this company is just a US front. No more detail on that. > > > > You might find a used one online with bent jaws or something and be able to use the board from that. But there is no ordering "IC 12", replacing it and having it work again. > > > > Nother thing to consider is what these things cost. Mitutoyo is a really good company and I have some of their micrometers and other things, but the fact is they are selling their name if you cannot get parts. So for, I think $16, Harbor Freight or one of them has one that is so similar in performance you'll never notice any difference. > > > > Or just read a real caliper that has the scale on the side that gives you thousandths and forget about this digital shit and you will never have this problem again. > > > > On this page the first picture shows a caliper that can read down to the thousandths : > > > > http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-read-a-vernier-caliper/step2/Course-reading-1/ > > > > Forget the text. The top of the picture shows a different scale which is made specifically to reveal the next decimal place. Whichever line lines up with a line on the main scale indicates the next decimal place. They achieve that by using nine lines in the exact space of ten. It does not matter which line lines up with the main scale, just count it up and it is the next decimal place. > > > > I know this is hard to understand for modern people, but give it a try. The battery died in my digital caliper about two years ago and I never bothered to replace it. Plus I got better calipers laying around anyway. They just aren't digital and you have to really look at them to read them, it is not all done for you. I also have a pretty full set of micrometers, none digital. > > > > These conveniences are nice but make us lazy.Vernier calipers are great for those who have good eyesight. Even with eyeglasses I have trouble reading the vernier scale.> > What is wrong with dial calipers? I have a digital caliper, but I have > to take the battery out each time I'm done with it or it dies. I used > to think the case was pressing the on button, but eventually I realize > the durn thing just never turns off! So I use my dial caliper which got > dropped once and reads 1 or 2 thou when closed. Not a problem for most > of my work. > > The dial caliper came with a micrometer which I used the other day to > measure the thickness of some Chinese 18 gauge wire which is really more > like 20 gauge. I didn't contact the ebay seller early enough so they > won't refund the money. So I'm going to buy more of the same and then > give him shit. Do they *really* have to cut corners so much that they > aren't even selling what they claim? > > -- > > Rick C
Reply by ●November 29, 20232023-11-29
On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 6:11:45 AM UTC+11, John Smiht wrote:> On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 11:48:41 AM UTC-6, rickman wrote: > > On 12/14/2016 1:57 AM, jurb...@gmail.com wrote: \If you had used your eyes a little more carefully, you'd have noticed that you'd posted a response in a 2016 thread that had been revived by a counterfeit banknote spammer. Try to avoid doing this this. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
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