What is the most powerful audio output tube?

nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:

> > >
> >> >" Only morons reverse the word order and imply that "RMS watts" are a special kind."
> >> >
> >> >Are you one of them ?  
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Doesn't really matter much which way you say it,  RMS watts or watts
> >> RMS.  It's commutative.
> >
> >
> >** Not it fucking is not - you lying ass. 
> >
> >> 
> >> They're both technically wrong in the normal world of power
> >>
> >
> >
> >**FFS dickhead, the context hear is AUDIO amplifier power measurement !! 
> >
> 
> 
> Power is power no matter how you measure it. 
>
>

** IF you were not such a lying, pig ignorant pile of putrid diarrhoea you might know that there are numerous ways to rate the output power of an audio amplifier - all giving different numbers. 
 
While " watts RMS " clearly defines just one.


> You're off on this one ...


** Why don't you go straight into HELL - mutherfucker ??


FYI:

Forget posting here again cos I am gonna be on your case.

I despise scumbag trolls like you. 



....  Phil 

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 04:34:38 -0800 (PST), Phil Allison
<pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>
>> > >
>> >> >" Only morons reverse the word order and imply that "RMS watts" are a special kind."
>> >> >
>> >> >Are you one of them ?  
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> Doesn't really matter much which way you say it,  RMS watts or watts
>> >> RMS.  It's commutative.
>> >
>> >
>> >** Not it fucking is not - you lying ass. 
>> >
>> >> 
>> >> They're both technically wrong in the normal world of power
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >**FFS dickhead, the context hear is AUDIO amplifier power measurement !! 
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> Power is power no matter how you measure it. 
>>
>>
>
>** IF you were not such a lying, pig ignorant pile of putrid diarrhoea you might know that there are numerous ways to rate the output power of an audio amplifier - all giving different numbers. 
> 
>While " watts RMS " clearly defines just one.
>
>
>> You're off on this one ...
>
>
>** Why don't you go straight into HELL - mutherfucker ??
>
>
>FYI:
>
>Forget posting here again cos I am gonna be on your case.
>
>I despise scumbag trolls like you. 
>


But Phil, you need to be trolled !  You're a natural for it.

Kissy Kissy !



>
>
>....  Phil 
>

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 02:49:54 -0800 (PST), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

>>"I love you so much Phil !  You are such a sweet sweet man !
>
>Here's a BIG wet sloppy kiss right on your rosy red lips ! "
>
>Oh, we've had much worse. I suspect someone killed them. 

>
>You cannot really say :

You are correct.  Pretty much in audio anyway.  I suppose there is
something to be said for peak power if the power supply can handle it
for a few cycles but bass is where the power is needed unless its a
small amplifier feeding the high frequency side of a biamped system.
So the amplifier better be able to put out high power for quite a
while in the bass case.

>
>>"Power is power no matter how you measure it. "



>
>There has to be a prescribed method To measure meters you do not use a hammer. To measure volts you do not use a screwdriver. (or your finger)

Or your tongue.

>
>While this is a misnmer it has been described by the IHF and the US FTC. I believe it is also accepted in most of Europe. 


Accepted, maybe.

>
>It is not a bad measurement process and standardizes things. If they want to rename it fine. If we want to rename it fine. But the bottom line is that 2.83 volts RMS is considered 1 watt RMS into and 8 ohm load. 

Only in the audio world.  This is why I said power is power above.

>
>I do note that the RMS*RMS screws it up. You can almost take the peak voltage and figure it on the ohms and just take half of that, but that is not exact, it is off a bit. 


Yes, I think that's where part of the misnomer comes from.  However I
think what they used to mean was continuous average power.  That's
from around 30+ years ago and your Flame Linear amplifier.  Actually,
the flames got much lower after better output transistors came by like
the MJ15024 and 2SD555 (RIP)

>
>This is not actually mathematics, it is amplifiers. In mathematics it means root mean squared. 

Well, it is actually a mathematical way of measuring power but I agree
that is is now engrained in the amplifier market and will stay being
screwed up until the $10,000 RCA cables go away.

>
>Take how true RMS measurements were done before there were chips that could calculate it. They literally had a light bulb shining on a light detector. Even in more (well slightly) modern equipment they use that method. I have an HP 339A distortion meter, it uses such a scheme. 
>
>In a way that kinda proves that there is such a thing as RMS power because that is what lights the light in the CdS photocoupler. The voltage out of the amp going to it produces the current and it is thus calibrated to, umm whatever, but it is. 
>
>All true RMS meters used that method until the chips came out that could sample and to the math. But the readings from that 339A do agree with my Fluke 8050A as well as my buddy's 8842 (I think) which is a much higher end meter. 
>
>So true RMS is either voltage or current. But under load it still means wattage. 


Yes, but that usually means average power.


>
>Perhaps the name should be changed but fuck all that. Just accept it. Names are fucked up. 

>
>Do you live in a democracy ? If so you can vote to force your neighbor to paint his house any color you want, and to put his Wife out for a gangbang. In a real democracy it is mob rule, and the mo0b is easy to motivate. that is why the US is a republic. Not that it is workig out perfectly but at least we can't vote you out of the neighborhood. Think if Blacks moved into a White neighborhood they could just vote to make them move. Nope. Have to burn their house down. This is Cleveland and that has happened more than once but doesn't seem to make the news and nobody gets busted. 
>
>Words just do not seem to have static meanings. Back in the 1970s when the IHF and FTC got involved with power ratings, if you were there, (or Phil) what would you have them call these watts ? Just heating power is no good, of course at a certain THD. But heating is actually what it is. 


It was always average watts in reality.


>
>But then if you used the term "average watts" the consumer might think that each unit puts out a different power level and want to try a bunch of them in the showroom to see which one blew the most speakers. Nobody wanted that. 
>
>Yes, people here are and were stupid, but it seems that other countries adopted the standard and the only people who have a problem with it are those who know math. Well if people in the US knew math we would have executed all the politicians and bankers by now. Where is all that money ? Then their answer is that is was really only fake money. Well then why the fuck did the government have to replace it ? 
>
>I think in bridged mode my Phase Linear 400/2 might be able to run a washing machine. Try that on a new amp. Things have changed. And to the one who said something to the effect "idiot, power is not measured with a sine wave", then tell me what they do use ow. 


>Because the same power amps these days do not seem to have the Uumph of the ones from the old days. I know some of the esoteric ones do, but they cost out the ass. I mean the stuff at Bestbuy. It simply does not compare, and I know why. It is not even a math problem. 
>

This is one of my biggest problems I have with the latest bogus
ratings system...  Actually, not really a "system", just the way the
audio industry does things nowadays.  For instance, measuring power
draw by applying pink noise at 1/8th power or so....   1/8th of what
power ?   What is "full" power now ?  I think it may be surge average
power for just a few seconds from my measurements.

The other newer difference is noise measurements for small signal
audio.  It's all A-Weighted now. Bandwidth limited.  Pre-amps and A/D
converters used to be specified flat responds 20 Hz to 20 kHz or so.
Companies started using A weighting to make their specs look better
and now their competition has to do it because the users do not know
any better.


~b


>It is called clipping headroom. This is where an amp puts out twice its rated power but at like 5 % distortion, not even clipping. It was hard to keep it linear all the way to the power rails. Now they have pretty much solved that. Of note, in the past, Marantz was one that seemed to solve that in their higher end amps, but they still gave you extra watts. there were a few others. My 400/2 is not that good at it, I can actually see some nonlinearity when it gets near clipping, but that is well over the 200 WPC rating. Manufacturers had to do a tradeoff because as you approch clipping the distortion goes up and the IHF and FTC wanted a distortion rating with that power rating. so rather than using 3 %, they wanted like 0.5 % so they took a lower power rating. 
>
>Pioneer was another one that closed that gap a bit. Take a look at the SX-850. The drivers get a higher voltage than the outputs. that is to keep it more linear when it gets near clipping. And this is in response to those IHF/FTC rules. 
>
>So change the name, but don't change the standard. Don't change the formula like they do for unemployment and inflation ad all that. Leave the formula alone and just call it like AVG watts or some shit. 
>
>Unless someone can come up with a better formula. I am all ears.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 11:54:49 -0800, SpngeboB Sinewave wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 02:49:54 -0800 (PST), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>"I love you so much Phil !  You are such a sweet sweet man !
>>
>>Here's a BIG wet sloppy kiss right on your rosy red lips ! "
>>
>>Oh, we've had much worse. I suspect someone killed them. 
>
>>
>>You cannot really say :
>
>You are correct.  Pretty much in audio anyway.  I suppose there is
>something to be said for peak power if the power supply can handle it
>for a few cycles but bass is where the power is needed unless its a
>small amplifier feeding the high frequency side of a biamped system.
>So the amplifier better be able to put out high power for quite a
>while in the bass case.
>
>>
>>>"Power is power no matter how you measure it. "
>
>
>
>>
>>There has to be a prescribed method To measure meters you do not use a hammer. To measure volts you do not use a screwdriver. (or your finger)
>
>Or your tongue.
>
>>
>>While this is a misnmer it has been described by the IHF and the US FTC. I believe it is also accepted in most of Europe. 
>
>
>Accepted, maybe.
>
>>
>>It is not a bad measurement process and standardizes things. If they want to rename it fine. If we want to rename it fine. But the bottom line is that 2.83 volts RMS is considered 1 watt RMS into and 8 ohm load. 
>
>Only in the audio world.  This is why I said power is power above.
>
>>
>>I do note that the RMS*RMS screws it up. You can almost take the peak voltage and figure it on the ohms and just take half of that, but that is not exact, it is off a bit. 
>
>
>Yes, I think that's where part of the misnomer comes from.  However I
>think what they used to mean was continuous average power.  That's
>from around 30+ years ago and your Flame Linear amplifier.  Actually,
>the flames got much lower after better output transistors came by like
>the MJ15024 and 2SD555 (RIP)
>
>>
>>This is not actually mathematics, it is amplifiers. In mathematics it means root mean squared. 
>
>Well, it is actually a mathematical way of measuring power but I agree
>that is is now engrained in the amplifier market and will stay being
>screwed up until the $10,000 RCA cables go away.
>
>>
>>Take how true RMS measurements were done before there were chips that could calculate it. They literally had a light bulb shining on a light detector. Even in more (well slightly) modern equipment they use that method. I have an HP 339A distortion meter, it uses such a scheme. 
>>
>>In a way that kinda proves that there is such a thing as RMS power because that is what lights the light in the CdS photocoupler. The voltage out of the amp going to it produces the current and it is thus calibrated to, umm whatever, but it is. 
>>
>>All true RMS meters used that method until the chips came out that could sample and to the math. But the readings from that 339A do agree with my Fluke 8050A as well as my buddy's 8842 (I think) which is a much higher end meter. 
>>
>>So true RMS is either voltage or current. But under load it still means wattage. 
>
>
>Yes, but that usually means average power.
>
>
>>
>>Perhaps the name should be changed but fuck all that. Just accept it. Names are fucked up. 
>
>>
>>Do you live in a democracy ? If so you can vote to force your neighbor to paint his house any color you want, and to put his Wife out for a gangbang. In a real democracy it is mob rule, and the mo0b is easy to motivate. that is why the US is a republic. Not that it is workig out perfectly but at least we can't vote you out of the neighborhood. Think if Blacks moved into a White neighborhood they could just vote to make them move. Nope. Have to burn their house down. This is Cleveland and that has happened more than once but doesn't seem to make the news and nobody gets busted. 
>>
>>Words just do not seem to have static meanings. Back in the 1970s when the IHF and FTC got involved with power ratings, if you were there, (or Phil) what would you have them call these watts ? Just heating power is no good, of course at a certain THD. But heating is actually what it is. 
>
>
>It was always average watts in reality.
>
>
>>
>>But then if you used the term "average watts" the consumer might think that each unit puts out a different power level and want to try a bunch of them in the showroom to see which one blew the most speakers. Nobody wanted that. 
>>
>>Yes, people here are and were stupid, but it seems that other countries adopted the standard and the only people who have a problem with it are those who know math. Well if people in the US knew math we would have executed all the politicians and bankers by now. Where is all that money ? Then their answer is that is was really only fake money. Well then why the fuck did the government have to replace it ? 
>>
>>I think in bridged mode my Phase Linear 400/2 might be able to run a washing machine. Try that on a new amp. Things have changed. And to the one who said something to the effect "idiot, power is not measured with a sine wave", then tell me what they do use ow. 
>
>
>>Because the same power amps these days do not seem to have the Uumph of the ones from the old days. I know some of the esoteric ones do, but they cost out the ass. I mean the stuff at Bestbuy. It simply does not compare, and I know why. It is not even a math problem. 
>>
>
>This is one of my biggest problems I have with the latest bogus
>ratings system...  Actually, not really a "system", just the way the
>audio industry does things nowadays.  For instance, measuring power
>draw by applying pink noise at 1/8th power or so....   1/8th of what
>power ?   What is "full" power now ?  I think it may be surge average
>power for just a few seconds from my measurements.
>
>The other newer difference is noise measurements for small signal
>audio.  It's all A-Weighted now. Bandwidth limited.  Pre-amps and A/D
>converters used to be specified flat responds 20 Hz to 20 kHz or so.
>Companies started using A weighting to make their specs look better
>and now their competition has to do it because the users do not know
>any better.
>
>
>~b
>
>
>>It is called clipping headroom. This is where an amp puts out twice its rated power but at like 5 % distortion, not even clipping. It was hard to keep it linear all the way to the power rails. Now they have pretty much solved that. Of note, in the past, Marantz was one that seemed to solve that in their higher end amps, but they still gave you extra watts. there were a few others. My 400/2 is not that good at it, I can actually see some nonlinearity when it gets near clipping, but that is well over the 200 WPC rating. Manufacturers had to do a tradeoff because as you approch clipping the distortion goes up and the IHF and FTC wanted a distortion rating with that power rating. so rather than using 3 %, they wanted like 0.5 % so they took a lower power rating. 
>>
>>Pioneer was another one that closed that gap a bit. Take a look at the SX-850. The drivers get a higher voltage than the outputs. that is to keep it more linear when it gets near clipping. And this is in response to those IHF/FTC rules. 
>>
>>So change the name, but don't change the standard. Don't change the formula like they do for unemployment and inflation ad all that. Leave the formula alone and just call it like AVG watts or some shit. 
>>
>>Unless someone can come up with a better formula. I am all ears.


I will add this one last item on the subject and let it be (except
maybe for trolling Phil some more when required)...

Here is a paper written by a friend from 2002 when we were discussing
this subject.

Spongebob

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end

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 13:12:20 -0800, TollBob PinkNoise wrote:


Oh, nevermind.

 nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:



** You're the same poste as the fuckwit boB troll - aren't you ? 

 A lunatic,  ham radio moron with a bad smell. 

 Fuck off -  never come back. 

nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:




** You're the same poster as the fuckwit boB troll - aren't you ? 

 A lunatic,  ham radio moron with a bad smell. 

 Fuck off -  never come back. 









 

>" For instance, measuring power
draw by applying pink noise at 1/8th power or so....   1/8th of what
power ? "

Who does this ? It tells nothing. 

It sounds as bad as how they rate speakers now. Sometime in the late 1970s when the elcheapo BIG BIG speakers came out that couldn't really much under 70 Hz even with a 15" woofer they changed how they measured the frequency response. Good old Hirsch Houck labs had a decent way which IIRC had a swept frequency. Later they changed to 1/3 octave bands of pink noise. 

Now I don't know if the microphones were tuned to reject harmonics but with pink noise all distortion counts. What's more all of them measured at a fairly low level and that mean less cone excursion. You start really pumping speakers and odd order distortion goes through the roof. If they measure that, when you put in say 40 Hz, the output at 80, 120 and so forth counts as good. In other words, the measured frequency response does not mean that the speaker is putting out the same frequency that is put into it. In fact some of the elcheapo tuned port systems are so well tuned that they put out pretty much one note no matter what you put into them. Saw a pair at work that needed tweeters and once I heard them I said don't even bother. 

Most people don't even know that in the song by The Who, Who Are You there are two bass notes being played through most of it, one an octave under the other. So many speakers simply reproduce that as one note that when they hear it on a good system it is like a revelation. It was to me because when I first heard it, it was in a car. Later when I heard it at home I noticed it. 

Another thing they do now or at least were doing after the 1970s was taking the bass output with a close mic to the woofer and then to the port and summing the output. This is a totally erroneous way of doing it, though it makes the numbers look better. Those outputs are out of phase (polarity actually) and to not add in your listening environment. Actually I prefer a sealed system but they decided to make the cabinets out of the absolute cheapest material possible around then and if you had a strong woofer it would bust out the seams. I know, I've done it. I also have a pair of old Radio Shack Nova 6s that are not ported and I think have better bass than most 12" systems with their 8" woofers. But when I got them the cabinets were busted out, above a certain level the cabinet shook and it sounded like they were blown or bottoming out. I took a bunch of finishing nails and fixed that right up and now they sound pretty good. Not the greatest tweeters in the world but I have heard worse. At least they're not shrill sounding. 

Bottom line is that they've been cheating on alot of measurements for a long time now and it is getting worse. And now you say they use a 1/8 th power to rate the power of an amp ? I'd like to see just how the fuck they justify that. 

It has been open season on the US consumer for a long time. Look at the drug commercials, the side effects are worse than what they're supposed to treat. I mean foot fungus pills that light damage your kidneys when all you have to do is soak your feet in kerosene once in a while. And all this clinical testing they claim is responsible for the high cost, bullshit. the clinical testing proves it kills people yet they still sell it. Like that smoking cessesion aid that brings on suicidal tendencies, well I guess it work eh ? 

Sorry to hijack the thread but I am sick of the lies. Like even the horsepower rating of your car. It is meaningless unless you have peak HP at what RPMs and peak torque at what RPMs. With equal numbers for the peak HP and torque, the one with more difference in the RPMs is better. But unless you have all four numbers they mean nothing. And people don't know that. Maybe in Europe or other places that have decent schools but not in the US. 

I am very surprised we put a Man on the moon. I think if Russia was not under the thumb of the Soviets who were a binch of goniffs, they would have beat us, or if Germany was not totally fucked because of losing the war they would have gotten there first. And I'll tell you what, what they did in 1968, I bet they couldn't do today. In fact they can't even build rockets to get up to the satellites, they buy them - get this - from the Russians. 

Anyway, I have seen some entries here about the high power tubes, but not yet seen any that screw into a heatsink. I remember seeing pictures at least of some of them, the outer shell is actually the plate, there is very little glass involved if at all. Is that class of tubes simply gone ? I didn't imagine it. But the fact is you can pull a vacuum in aluminum just as well in glass. 

Anyone have pictures of those ?

>"** IF you were not such a lying, pig ignorant pile of putrid diarrhoea "

Now that's the Phil we know and