What is the most powerful audio output tube?

 upsid...@downunder.com wrote:


> >
> >Unlike amplifiers, most speakers have no fixed limit on max power
> >input - only  a limit on the average power they can handle over a 
> >period of time. The problem is that speaker maker's never tell you
> > what that is.  
> 
>
> The speaker coil resistance increases with temperature (and hence of
> previous power input). 

** No fooling.

> The power limit can be calculated by knowing
> the coil maximum temperature at a specific power (actually voltage
> output for a typical amplifier).
> 

** Ever see that specified by anyone? 


> The power limits for a closed speaker is more predictable, but for
> bass reflex enclosures, you can easily blow the cone out at 20 Hz (not
> to mention 3 Hz, which is typically the frequency, at which the final
> amplifier drops to 1, due to the feedback loop) amplifier.

** You on drugs ? 
 
 Or maybe just an incorrigible troll.

 Please go away and stay there.

 And read this too: 
 
 http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html

 See who wrote it?? 


....   Phil 

On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 8:08:21 AM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
> upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> 
> 
> > >
> > >Unlike amplifiers, most speakers have no fixed limit on max power
> > >input - only  a limit on the average power they can handle over a 
> > >period of time. The problem is that speaker maker's never tell you
> > > what that is.  
> > 
> >
> > The speaker coil resistance increases with temperature (and hence of
> > previous power input). 
> 
> ** No fooling.
> 
> > The power limit can be calculated by knowing
> > the coil maximum temperature at a specific power (actually voltage
> > output for a typical amplifier).
> > 
> 
> ** Ever see that specified by anyone? 
> 
> 
> > The power limits for a closed speaker is more predictable, but for
> > bass reflex enclosures, you can easily blow the cone out at 20 Hz (not
> > to mention 3 Hz, which is typically the frequency, at which the final
> > amplifier drops to 1, due to the feedback loop) amplifier.
> 
> ** You on drugs ? 
>  
>  Or maybe just an incorrigible troll.
> 
>  Please go away and stay there.
> 
>  And read this too: 
>  
>  http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html
> 
>  See who wrote it?? 
> 
> 
> ....   Phil

"Seems all is fair in a game where reality has been rendered meaningless."
Good one Phil!

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

> boomer#...
> >
> > 
> > 
> > It would be nice to know why (RMS watts is a misnomer),
> >
> 
> ** People who see a term being used in trade or commerce etc and think
> they know what it means from a literal interpretation of the words are
> called idiots.
> 
> A *term* means what the folk USING it intend it to mean.
> 
> A bottle of "Steak Sauce" contains no steak, but from the term it ought to
> be made from steak.
> 
> The term "watts RMS" is defined and used to mean the average power output
> measured with a sine wave signal and specified load.
> 
> Only morons reverse the word order and imply that "RMS watts" are a
> special kind.
> 
> 
> ....  Phil 
>  

Fair enought, maybe we should let an audio engineer be an audio engineer
and accept the colloquialism.  But it does sometimes make if difficult
to discuss RF amplifier power with radio amateurs if people are
determined to look for RMS power.


-- 

Roger Hayter

Rich S wrote:

> 
>
> > 
> >  And read this too: 
> >  
> >  http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html
> > 
> >  See who wrote it?? 
> > 
> 
> 
> "Seems all is fair in a game where reality has been rendered meaningless."
> Good one Phil!
>

 ** I suppose I could have said " ...there are lies, damn lies and loudspeaker specifications". But I know that some makers spec their drivers fairly honestly - JBL's professional series for example ( the ones with 4 digit numbers).



....   Phil 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 21:21:36 -0800 (PST), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

>>"The bottom line is that you don't know how audio power is measured.
>Hint:  They don't use sine waves. "
>
>They used to. So more has changed. Fine, if I buy anything I'll measure it myself from now on, but that is unlikely. The old Phase Linear can blow many speakers and run me out of money to not be able to pay the electric bill.

Nonsense.  Music isn't a sine wave. Such a measurement is meaningless
for an amplifier intended for audio.  To drive industrial equipment,
perhaps.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 21:44:57 -0800 (PST), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

>>"(55V/1.4)^2/4 is about 400W. Allow some clipping... "
>
>It's 378. Number one, how much clipping do I allow. Ten percent ? That is hard to take even for regular people let alone anything even close to an audiophile. Also, that 55 volts was measured with no load. The units have basic iron, not a tightly regulated SMPS. No way in hell it maintains that. 

10% is a "normal" number.

>>"From the above, you must think they use 10mohm speakers.  ;-) "
>
>Watts is volts times amps. The speaker impedance does not matter. I remember when Fostgate had not been bought by Rockford and they rated into eight ohms and used higher rail voltages. After the buyout they started going to the lower impedance load for their power ratings. 

Silly. 

>You do realize that higher impedance dynamic speakers are more efficient right ? All that lower impedances do is to not make you kick up the voltage as much, but per watt, with all else equal, lower impedance is less efficient per watt. NOT per volt. 

Red herring.

>In fact even house stereo speaker manufacturers have gotten away from 1 watt/ 1 meter sensitivity ratings because to get the good sound they have to use that choke in the crossove that makes the load more reactive, and plus like in the case of my Boston Acoustics which sounded great, a 3.1 ohm woofer. And it had inductance in front of it to bring out that bottom octave. 

Irrelevant.

>So now many of them use @ 2.83 VRMS/1 meter for that spec. And in the meantime most consumer amps cannot handle that load. I have had a few pairs of speakers with good bass that kicked in the current limiting on some amps. 

Completely off the reservation.

>So now you are telling me they don't even use a sine wave ? how the hell do they measure the distortion then ? To have to old rating system it had to be a sine wave because the distortion meter requires a sine wave. 

Of course not.  Music isn't a sine wave. The ratio of the peak to
average power of a sine wave is 3dB.  Music tends to be more like
20dB.

>Unless they use the null method but then it has to be phase compensated to be fair, and that is pretty much a bunch of shit. 

More nonsense.

>Generally I take the easy way out. I just use integrated program material, rock usually and crank it into a real load until it clips, and I see the rails dropping and the ripple in it in the envelope on the scope. I take that peak value and just say "Your amp clips at ____ watts". Older amps do better because they didn't have quite the linearity at the upper ranges of their power, and that is what gave us 3dB clipping headroom, because like Pioneer, all of them, they did not want to claim that power rating at 8 % distortion. And it cost them in bigger heatsinks ad all that, but their customers didn't mind the extra watts. Or the extra weight. 

And just what do you think the peak to average power is of your
"rock"?

><"You have to look at the definitions.  They're not always what you
>think they should be but they are what they are. "
>
>Then apply the same standards and accept the "RMS watt". I will still be measuring it the same way.

The terms "RMS" and "watt" has a specific meanings.  Put the two
together and it describes something that doesn't have meaning in the
physical world.  OTOH, if you want to define "RMS watt" to me the mean
distance between Pluto and Uranus, I'm fine with it (as long as you
specify everything).  That doesn't mean the term, itself, makes any
sense. 

On 11/12/16 16:58, Phil Allison wrote:
> A *term* means what the folk USING it intend it to mean.
>
> A bottle of "Steak Sauce" contains no steak, but from the term it ought to be made from steak.

Phew. So it's ok to continue to use baby oil then.
"Contains no actual babies".

Q: How many linguists does it take to change a broken light globe?

A: 3 - one to change it, and two more to argue about what type of
globe emits broken light.

Clifford Heath.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 21:58:27 -0800 (PST), Phil Allison
<pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

>boomer#...
>>
>> 
>> 
>> It would be nice to know why (RMS watts is a misnomer),
>>
>
>** People who see a term being used in trade or commerce etc and think they know what it means from a literal interpretation of the words are called idiots.
>
>A *term* means what the folk USING it intend it to mean.
>
>A bottle of "Steak Sauce" contains no steak, but from the term it ought to be made from steak. 


>
>The term "watts RMS" is defined and used to mean the average power output measured with a sine wave signal and specified load. 



Defined where ?  And by who ?

Would love to see where RMS power and Average power are defined as
being the same thing.



>
>Only morons reverse the word order and imply that "RMS watts" are a special kind.
>
>
>....  Phil 
> 
>

nor
> 
> >> 
> >> It would be nice to know why (RMS watts is a misnomer),
> >>
> >
> >** People who see a term being used in trade or commerce etc and think
> > they know what it means from a literal interpretation of the words are
> > called idiots.
> >
> >A *term* means what the folk USING it intend it to mean.
> >
> >A bottle of "Steak Sauce" contains no steak, but from the term it ought
> >to be made from steak. 
> 
>
> >The term "watts RMS" is defined and used to mean the average power 
> >output measured with a sine wave signal and specified load. 
> 
> 
> Defined where ?  And by who ?
> 
 
** By standards bodies like the FTC and by practice by nearly all amplifier makers. 


> Would love to see where RMS power and Average power are defined as
> being the same thing.
> 

** Consider why the RMS value of a voltage or current is useful - cos it computes the DC equivalent value of those quantities for any waveform.

So for a resistive load: average power = Vrms^2 divided by R.

Same as the DC case where power = V^2 divided by R. 

So they are mathematically exactly the same. 


" Only morons reverse the word order and imply that "RMS watts" are a special kind."

Are you one of them ?  


.... Phil 

>"distance between Pluto and Uranus, "

Well Pluto isn't showing but...