On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:18:21 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:>On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:05:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote: > >>On 11/11/2015 07:03 AM, krw wrote: >>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:01:54 -0800, John Larkin >>> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:46:10 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman >>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote: >>>>>>>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman >>>>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote: >>>>>>>>>> The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing >>>>>>>>>> frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and >>>>>>>>>> low enough loss. >>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and >>>>>>>>> persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> RL >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to >>>>>>> make oscillators. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an >>>>>>> argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain >>>>>>> a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric >>>>>>> oscillator too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman >>>>>> >>>>>> It's not gain. >>>>>> >>>>> It's not an oscillator, either. >>>> >>>> The 60 Hz pump trick adds energy to the resonant device, the pendulum, >>>> just as a transistor (or a varicap pump) adds energy to an LC. Adding >>>> energy keeps the oscillation from dying out. >>>> >>>> A pumped resonator is an oscillator. As a bonus, the parametric >>>> oscillator is phase-locked to the pump. >>>> >>> You obviously consider the pendulum an oscillator but I think you're >>> alone. I see it as nothing more than a tank. There is no >>> amplification or feedback. What's the transfer equation? >>> >> >>You don't think that something that oscillates is an oscillator? >> >Well...We're not alone. Wiki thinks that a pendulum is an oscillator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Simple_harmonic_oscillator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Parametric_oscillators -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Magamp oscillator
Started by ●November 3, 2015
Reply by ●November 11, 20152015-11-11
Reply by ●November 11, 20152015-11-11
Bruce S <nope@lst.com> wrote:> Thanks! Now we are talking. I had come across several dual varactor > frequency halvers using microstrip transmission lines at GHz > frequencies.> Your circuit moves this down to a lower frequency where standard > components can be used.> Note that ordinary diodes won't work. It needs the varactors. And it > needs two of them, not just one like Jeroen and Legg's circuits.> It works only at half the input frequency. It won't work at F/3 or > F/4.> Now the trick will be to find the phase noise. If it can divide the > input frequency with lower phase noise than a regular d-flop, it could > have some significant application in my work.> Single varactor or diode circuits : Out. > Hobbs Halver : In.> Thanks.Unfortunately, I found that silicon varactors are quite noisy at microwave frequencies. GaAs are quieter but expensive. This probably kills the dual varactor divider, but this piece of information has a direct bearing on using varactors in vco's at microwave frequencies. It has probably saved me a great deal of work and wasted time and money, so it was well worth the search.
Reply by ●November 12, 20152015-11-12
On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:38:17 -0800, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:18:21 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote: > >>On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:05:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs >><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote: >> >>>On 11/11/2015 07:03 AM, krw wrote:<snip.>>> >>>You don't think that something that oscillates is an oscillator? >>> >>Well... > >We're not alone. Wiki thinks that a pendulum is an oscillator. > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillation > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Simple_harmonic_oscillator > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Parametric_oscillatorsIt is common knowledge in electronics; that oscillators don't. RL
Reply by ●November 12, 20152015-11-12
On a sunny day (Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:01:04 GMT) it happened Bruce S <nope@lst.com> wrote in <XnsA54F98C9ABC45idtokenpost@69.16.179.23>:>I am waiting for a list of commercial vendors of frequency halvers that >you said could be bought with no problem.flipflops... Or did you mean something else? ;-) (I take no side on this, but am curious)>I am not talking about a >standard parametric down converter that requires a pump signal.flipflops :-) BTW there are other ways, old organs had neons. These guys talk about using solid state diodes named DIAC: http://http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0 Never tried that, but also a 2 terminal device. There is more I am sure.
Reply by ●November 12, 20152015-11-12
On 11/12/2015 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:01:04 GMT) it happened Bruce S > <nope@lst.com> wrote in <XnsA54F98C9ABC45idtokenpost@69.16.179.23>: > >> I am waiting for a list of commercial vendors of frequency halvers that >> you said could be bought with no problem. > > flipflops... > Or did you mean something else? > > ;-) > > (I take no side on this, but am curious) > >> I am not talking about a >> standard parametric down converter that requires a pump signal. > > flipflops > > :-) > > BTW there are other ways, old organs had neons. > These guys talk about using solid state diodes named DIAC: > http://http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0 > > Never tried that, but also a 2 terminal device. > > There is more I am sure. >Magamp Flipflop!! -- Grizzly H.
Reply by ●November 12, 20152015-11-12
On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:36:37 -0500) it happened muesly <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> wrote in <n21tk5$cjr$1@speranza.aioe.org>:>On 11/12/2015 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:01:04 GMT) it happened Bruce S >> <nope@lst.com> wrote in <XnsA54F98C9ABC45idtokenpost@69.16.179.23>: >> >>> I am waiting for a list of commercial vendors of frequency halvers that >>> you said could be bought with no problem. >> >> flipflops... >> Or did you mean something else? >> >> ;-) >> >> (I take no side on this, but am curious) >> >>> I am not talking about a >>> standard parametric down converter that requires a pump signal. >> >> flipflops >> >> :-) >> >> BTW there are other ways, old organs had neons. >> These guys talk about using solid state diodes named DIAC: >> http://http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0 >> >> Never tried that, but also a 2 terminal device. >> >> There is more I am sure. >> > >Magamp Flipflop!!There exists relays that you can set with a pulse to one state or the other (bipolar). Sort of a set-reset flipflop. Long time ago I made an oscillator for Christmas lights with a relay and a capacitor, bended the contacts a bit to get the right on-off time. If it must be a solid state diode, I wonder if you can use photoelectric effect (change in reverse conductance diode) and some galvanometer vane that intercepts the light to make an oscillator (without mechanical contacts).
Reply by ●November 12, 20152015-11-12
On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 7:38:23 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:18:21 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote: > > >On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:05:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs > ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote: > > > >>On 11/11/2015 07:03 AM, krw wrote: > >>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:01:54 -0800, John Larkin > >>> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:46:10 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman > >>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote: > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman > >>>>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing > >>>>>>>>>> frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and > >>>>>>>>>> low enough loss. > >>>>>>>>>> [...] > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and > >>>>>>>>> persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> RL > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to > >>>>>>> make oscillators. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an > >>>>>>> argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain > >>>>>>> a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric > >>>>>>> oscillator too. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It's not gain. > >>>>>> > >>>>> It's not an oscillator, either. > >>>> > >>>> The 60 Hz pump trick adds energy to the resonant device, the pendulum, > >>>> just as a transistor (or a varicap pump) adds energy to an LC. Adding > >>>> energy keeps the oscillation from dying out. > >>>> > >>>> A pumped resonator is an oscillator. As a bonus, the parametric > >>>> oscillator is phase-locked to the pump. > >>>> > >>> You obviously consider the pendulum an oscillator but I think you're > >>> alone. I see it as nothing more than a tank. There is no > >>> amplification or feedback. What's the transfer equation? > >>> > >> > >>You don't think that something that oscillates is an oscillator? > >> > >Well... > > We're not alone. Wiki thinks that a pendulum is an oscillator. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillation > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Simple_harmonic_oscillator > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Parametric_oscillatorsHave you ever tried pumping up a swing by standing on the seat and just moving your center of mass up and down? You need a bit of motion for it to work.. after which you are going like gang busters in no time. Careful not to fall off! (I'm still a kid at heart.) George H.> > > -- > > John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc > picosecond timing precision measurement > > jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com > http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●November 12, 20152015-11-12
On 11/12/2015 8:03 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:36:37 -0500) it happened muesly > <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> wrote in > <n21tk5$cjr$1@speranza.aioe.org>: >> On 11/12/2015 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> On a sunny day (Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:01:04 GMT) it happened Bruce >>> S <nope@lst.com> wrote in >>> <XnsA54F98C9ABC45idtokenpost@69.16.179.23>: >>> >>>> I am waiting for a list of commercial vendors of frequency >>>> halvers that you said could be bought with no problem. >>> >>> flipflops... Or did you mean something else? >>> >>> ;-) >>> >>> (I take no side on this, but am curious) >>> >>>> I am not talking about a standard parametric down converter >>>> that requires a pump signal. >>> >>> flipflops >>> >>> :-) >>> >>> BTW there are other ways, old organs had neons. These guys talk >>> about using solid state diodes named DIAC: >>> http://http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0 >>> >>> Never tried that, but also a 2 terminal device. >>> >>> There is more I am sure. >> >> Magamp Flipflop!! > > There exists relays that you can set with a pulse to one state or the > other (bipolar). Sort of a set-reset flipflop. Long time ago I made > an oscillator for Christmas lights with a relay and a capacitor, > bended the contacts a bit to get the right on-off time. > > If it must be a solid state diode, I wonder if you can use > photoelectric effect (change in reverse conductance diode) and some > galvanometer vane that intercepts the light to make an oscillator > (without mechanical contacts).There are solar powered knick knacks, some of which involve an oscillating vane covering a photovoltaic device. Google "solar powered knick knack" -- Grizzly H.
Reply by ●November 12, 20152015-11-12
On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:27:43 -0800, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:17:28 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote: > >>On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:38:26 -0800, John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>>On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:45 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:45:13 -0800, John Larkin >>>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman >>>>>><jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote: >>>>>>>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman >>>>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote: >>>>>>>>>> The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing >>>>>>>>>> frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and >>>>>>>>>> low enough loss. >>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and >>>>>>>>> persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> RL >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to >>>>>>>make oscillators. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an >>>>>>>argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain >>>>>>>a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric >>>>>>>oscillator too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Jeroen Belleman >>>>>> >>>>>>It's not gain. >>>>>> >>>>>>RL >>>>> >>>>>Sure it is. The pendulum will swing forever, as long as the 60 Hz pump >>>>>is there, overcoming frictional losses. >>>>> >>>>I don't see any gain. Wout = Win * ? >>> >>>The active element of an oscillator, fed from a power supply, adds >>>enough energy to overcome losses in the resonator. >> >>OK, there is no feedback and no gain. > >The active element certainly has gain. The oscillator itself has no >definable gain because it has no input. > >>> >>>A parametrically pumped resonator does that. The words that you use >>>don't change the reality. If you define an oscillator as not having a >>>gain element, then it doesn't for you. >> >>It doesn't. Words mean things. > >Yes, and you can play with them endlessly.That's when they lose meaning. See: leftist (doublespeak)
Reply by ●November 12, 20152015-11-12
On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:02:45 -0500) it happened muesly <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> wrote in <n22d74$hk5$1@speranza.aioe.org>:>There are solar powered knick knacks, some of which involve an >oscillating vane covering a photovoltaic device. > >Google "solar powered knick knack"Cool :) How 'bout this: http://www.baco-army-goods.nl/solar-kakkerlak.html ( Translation: Solar powered cockroach: When the sun shines on the back of this cockroach it starts to dance.. it sits quiet in the shadow)
