Is this Intel i7 machine good for LTSpice?

On 11/3/2014 11:54 AM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 16:48:29 +0000, Martin Brown
> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> Gave us:
>
>> On 03/11/2014 16:26, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
>>> On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 13:14:47 +0000, Martin Brown
>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> Gave us:
>>>
>>>> In some chess problems the i5 can be faster and certainly cheaper!
>>>
>>>     Bullshit.
>>
>> You demonstrate clearly that you are an inarticulate moron.
>> Why am I not surprised?
>>
>> It is easy enough to do the tests and see for yourself. Hyperthreading
>> can get in the way of fast multithreading in some larger problems.
>
>    Again..  you spout crap, but have no clue about actual operation or
> function.
>
>    I can turn OFF HT in my Motherboard BIOS setup.
>
>    I will bet you that your chess app runs the same in both settings, if
> the code never uses it.

Hyperthreading runs two threads on one processor taking advantage of 
unused execution resources to allow one thread to run when the other 
thread is stalled.  But the memory bandwidth is still limited and 
contention for this resource can cause more delay than the second thread 
provides a gain.

If you would care to do a little digging for info on this I'm sure you 
can find something that will help you learn.

"Overall the performance history of hyper-threading was a mixed one in 
the beginning. As one commentary on high performance computing from 
November 2002 notes:

     Hyper-Threading can improve the performance of some MPI 
applications, but not all. Depending on the cluster configuration and, 
most importantly, the nature of the application running on the cluster, 
performance gains can vary or even be negative. The next step is to use 
performance tools to understand what areas contribute to performance 
gains and what areas contribute to performance degradation.[12]"

Guess where I found this...

-- 

Rick

On 11/3/2014 3:33 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Klaus Kragelund wrote:
>> I have a two year old laptop. I was tired with the slow startup of
>> programs, so I replaced the hard disk with a SSD. Amazing difference
>> in speed. As far as I can see also for the simulations although I did
>> not do a benchmark test.
>>
>> The Kingston SSD came with a USB connected enclosure to mount the old
>> hard disk in, so the harrdisk was mirrored and no re install of
>> programs was needed
>>
>
> That's what some folks in Germany said as well. Although I don't know
> why because if you had a machine with, say, 32GB of RAM then everything
> and the kitchen sink will comfortably fit into that much RAM and should
> execute even faster than via SSD.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  32 GB of RAM is great as 
RAM, but how does it mitigate the speed problems of a rotating hard 
drive?  When you run spice, where does your simulation data get saved?

-- 

Rick

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den mandag den 3. november 2014 21.20.35 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> Den s�ndag den 2. november 2014 18.24.23 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>> Carl Ijames wrote:
>>>>>> Don't know about computation speed, but this link says the
>>>>>> video card will drive 3 monitors: 
>>>>>> http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gt-720/specifications.
>>>>>>  Looking at Dell's site I don't see any mention of
>>>>>> expansion slots, and looking at the one picture with the
>>>>>> cover off I really can't see any sockets beyond the video
>>>>>> card, so if any further expansion is important you need to
>>>>>>  ask Dell for clarification.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Looks like you are right:
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.dell.com/ed/business/p/xps-8700/pd 
>>>>> http://core0.staticworld.net/images/article/2013/07/1253541_sr-1160-100047019-orig.jpg
>>>>>  
>>>>> http://www.pcworld.com/article/2047487/dell-xps-8700-special-editions-review-a-little-less-performance-for-a-lot-less-cash.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Quote "There's only one PCIe x16 slot, which means you won't
>>>>> be able to add a second video card to take advantage of
>>>>> Nvidia's SLI technology".
>>>>> 
>>>>> No slots. There's one more card in the bottom, not sure what
>>>>> that is. But if the video can drive three monitors it should
>>>>> be fine, I never added any cards to my current PC either.
>>>>> 
>>>> Only question is, how can one connect two regular OPC monitors
>>>> to this?
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gt-720/product-images
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> I'd expect that you can connect a monitor to each of the three
>>> outputs, VGA,DVI,HDMI. I have an old geforce and that's how that
>>> works
>>> 
>>> VGA is not much use, but unless you want to watch something from
>>> Hollywood DVI and HDMI is the same thing
>>> 
>> I do a lot of video conferencing via web where content moves. Other
>> than that just CAD, no movie streaming and such.
>> 
> 
> Then DVI will works just fine, HDMI is just DVI with optional audio
> and the encryption Hollywood insists on if you bought a blueray movie
> 
> 
> So just plug a monitor into both the HDMI and DVI output
> 

Ok, but can one be sure that an ordinary cheap 27" 1920*1080 monitor
will plug into either of them? For example, the ViewSonic VA2702w I have
here only has the large DVI connector, not the narrow HDMI. It does have
VGA though which I am using right now (good enough for my purposes).

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 11/3/2014 3:41 PM, Joerg wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>> On 11/2/2014 12:53 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 07:25:49 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> LTspice benchmark on various machines:
>>>> <http://fetting.se/images/PC%20Speed%20Benchmark%20running%20LTspice%20circuits.pdf>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Reason I am looking at these is that I absolutely positively do not
>>>>> want
>>>>> any computer with Windows 8 in here and unfortunately that's what many
>>>>> others come with.
>>>>
>>>> Windoze 8.1 can be made semi-tolerable by putting the start menu back
>>>> in and making it look like Windoze 7.
>>>> <http://www.classicshell.net>
>>>> I've been installing it on all my customers Windoze 8.1 machines and
>>>> have had no complaints or problems.  If you like wiggly icons on the
>>>> Windoze 8.1 start screen, you can do <Shift><Start>.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Too much risk. I've heard that running legacy software is tough in Win-8
>>> but Win-7 can mostly do it. Not as good as XP.
>>
>> What legacy software?  I have Windows 8 and I'm not having problems
>> running anything I ran on my old Vista laptop.
>>
>
> Ahm, my SW goes back to the mid-80's. Unorthodox filter design,
> beamfield simulators and such.

So DOS programs?  What makes you think they won't work under Win8?  The 
usual FUD?


>>> When it comes to PCs I am lazy :-)
>>>
>>> I just want to plug it in and go. Re-installing all my stuff takes
>>> enough time already.
>>
>> I hear you.  The big problem I had with setting up my Win 8 laptop was
>> that a lot of the freeware has become burdened with ads, toolbars and
>> other malware to the point I'm not willing to use it.
>>
>
> Yes, nagware is a major problem. It already was 10 years ago where it
> took a lot of effort to rid the computer of that.
>
>>
>>>> Before buying anything, I suggest you try LTspice on the new machine.
>>>> This is VERY easy with LTspice which doesn't use the registry or
>>>> require admin rights.  Just copy the files to a flash drive and it
>>>> should work.
>>>
>>> I am quite sure Costco will not let me do this :-)
>>
>> You can try finding the computer salesperson in the store.  They are
>> limited by store policy of course, but I have met a few who were very
>> willing to help as best they could.
>>
>
> They only have them online.

I've never been a fan of Costco for computers, with one exception.  They 
let you return a computer, no questions asked for 90 days I believe.  So 
you can try it out at home.


>>>> One catch.  LTspice saves its preferences to:
>>>>     C:\windows\scad3.ini
>>>> which has to be writeable.  The fix is to use the
>>>>     -ini <path>
>>>> command line switch, which will:
>>>>     Specify an .ini file to use other than %WINDIR%\scad3.ini
>>>> <http://ltwiki.org/LTspiceHelp/LTspiceHelp/Command_Line_Switches.htm>
>>
>> I need to note this somewhere.  Writing to the Windows directory is a
>> *very* bad idea.  I can't tell you how many developers do all sorts of
>> things they aren't supposed to under windows.  That is the actual cause
>> of many problems people have running older software under Windows.  They
>> don't listen to the people providing them with the OS!
>>
>
> I install everything in my own directory called "Programs". That avoids
> a lot of such issues. Makes it tough in a multi-user environment but I
> work alone here.

That helps one aspect, the nags from the OS about writing data.  But you 
have lost the benefit of the Program Files directory being protected. 
It makes your executables that much easier to infect, although that is 
not typically a problem since good AVS stops malware long before it gets 
a chance to infect the hard drive.

-- 

Rick

rickman wrote:
> On 11/3/2014 3:33 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> Klaus Kragelund wrote:
>>> I have a two year old laptop. I was tired with the slow startup of
>>> programs, so I replaced the hard disk with a SSD. Amazing difference
>>> in speed. As far as I can see also for the simulations although I did
>>> not do a benchmark test.
>>>
>>> The Kingston SSD came with a USB connected enclosure to mount the old
>>> hard disk in, so the harrdisk was mirrored and no re install of
>>> programs was needed
>>>
>>
>> That's what some folks in Germany said as well. Although I don't know
>> why because if you had a machine with, say, 32GB of RAM then everything
>> and the kitchen sink will comfortably fit into that much RAM and should
>> execute even faster than via SSD.
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about.  32 GB of RAM is great as
> RAM, but how does it mitigate the speed problems of a rotating hard
> drive?  When you run spice, where does your simulation data get saved?
> 

Normally on the HD. But not in the DOS days, there I used (part of) an
extra 4MB that I installed for this. RAM-disk should also be possible
under Windows. Like here:

http://blog.laptopmag.com/faster-than-an-ssd-how-to-turn-extra-memory-into-a-ram-disk

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Den mandag den 3. november 2014 21.58.14 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > Den mandag den 3. november 2014 21.20.35 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
> >> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>> Den s=F8ndag den 2. november 2014 18.24.23 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
> >>>> Joerg wrote:
> >>>>> Carl Ijames wrote:
> >>>>>> Don't know about computation speed, but this link says the
> >>>>>> video card will drive 3 monitors:=20
> >>>>>> http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gt-720/specif=
ications.
> >>>>>>  Looking at Dell's site I don't see any mention of
> >>>>>> expansion slots, and looking at the one picture with the
> >>>>>> cover off I really can't see any sockets beyond the video
> >>>>>> card, so if any further expansion is important you need to
> >>>>>>  ask Dell for clarification.
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>> Looks like you are right:
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> http://www.dell.com/ed/business/p/xps-8700/pd=20
> >>>>> http://core0.staticworld.net/images/article/2013/07/1253541_sr-1160=
-100047019-orig.jpg
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> http://www.pcworld.com/article/2047487/dell-xps-8700-special-editio=
ns-review-a-little-less-performance-for-a-lot-less-cash.html
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> Quote "There's only one PCIe x16 slot, which means you won't
> >>>>> be able to add a second video card to take advantage of
> >>>>> Nvidia's SLI technology".
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> No slots. There's one more card in the bottom, not sure what
> >>>>> that is. But if the video can drive three monitors it should
> >>>>> be fine, I never added any cards to my current PC either.
> >>>>>=20
> >>>> Only question is, how can one connect two regular OPC monitors
> >>>> to this?
> >>>>=20
> >>>> http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gt-720/product-=
images
> >>>>=20
> >>>>=20
> >>> I'd expect that you can connect a monitor to each of the three
> >>> outputs, VGA,DVI,HDMI. I have an old geforce and that's how that
> >>> works
> >>>=20
> >>> VGA is not much use, but unless you want to watch something from
> >>> Hollywood DVI and HDMI is the same thing
> >>>=20
> >> I do a lot of video conferencing via web where content moves. Other
> >> than that just CAD, no movie streaming and such.
> >>=20
> >=20
> > Then DVI will works just fine, HDMI is just DVI with optional audio
> > and the encryption Hollywood insists on if you bought a blueray movie
> >=20
> >=20
> > So just plug a monitor into both the HDMI and DVI output
> >=20
>=20
> Ok, but can one be sure that an ordinary cheap 27" 1920*1080 monitor
> will plug into either of them? For example, the ViewSonic VA2702w I have
> here only has the large DVI connector, not the narrow HDMI. It does have
> VGA though which I am using right now (good enough for my purposes).
>=20

yes, for regular computer monitor HDMI and DVI is the same thing, you just=
=20
need the right cable or a adapter to get the wires in the right holes ;) =
=20

-Lasse

On 11/3/2014 3:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>> On 11/2/2014 10:25 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> Need to spiff up my simulation speeds here. IIRC Mike Engelhardt stated
>>> that the Intel i7 is a really good processor for LTSPice. According to
>>> this it looks like the 4790 is the fastest of the bunch:
>>>
>>> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/core-i7-processor.html
>>>
>>>
>>> So, what do thee say, is the computer in the Costco link below a good
>>> deal for LTSpice purposes?
>>>
>>> http://www.costco.com/Dell-XPS-8700-Desktop-%7c-Intel-Core-i7-%7c-1GB-Graphics-%7c-Windows-7-Professional.product.100131208.html
>>>
>>
>> Hard to say.  The devil is in the details.  I have an i7 and I'm not
>> convinced it is much better if any than other CPUs for most tasks.  One
>> problem with the quad core is that that each core still runs at the same
>> speed as a dual core or even slower due to the contention for memory
>> bandwidth.  That is why I got a laptop with separate graphic memory. But
>> overall I don't see big speed improvements.  I'd be willing to bet you
>> won't see a huge difference between this machine and one costing a few
>> hundred dollars less.  BTW, do you really need a new monitor?  I expect
>> you can save a couple hundred more by getting a unit without monitor.
>>
>
> That's just it, the price differential for the monitor is only $100.
> Bought separately they are >$250. I could use it for a dual-monitor
> setup. Two 27-inchers would allow me to have module spec, schematic,
> layout and Digikey page in view simultaneously.

Heck, for $100 that's a good deal.


>>> It's also available without MS-Office Home & Student 2013 for $100 less
>>> but I found that OpenOffice isn't 100% compatible in the Excel area so
>>> that sounds like an ok deal. My hope is that it can drive two 27"
>>> monitors but I guess I can always add in another graphics card if not.
>>
>> I use LibreOffice which is the same package from the developers who
>> jumped ship at Oracle to continue development of OpenOffice the way they
>> think is best.  I don't see compatibility issues and 90% of what I use
>> office for is the spreadsheet.
>>
>
> I've seen lots of issues, mostly with Excel. No VBA, x-axis in plots
> gets crunched into oblivion and so on. Not too often but enough that I'd
> be willing to spend the $100 for the MS-Office suite. Of course my
> default Office package will be OO.

The only issue I've seen is when I add block diagrams to a spreadsheet. 
  Seems LO likes to shove it all up into the upper left corner 
sometimes.  I've never had trouble with any graphs, although I can't 
figure out how to add engineering notation to LO or a third Y axis for 
plotting multiple types of data on one plot.  Can you do that in OO or 
Excel?


>>> Reason I am looking at these is that I absolutely positively do not want
>>> any computer with Windows 8 in here and unfortunately that's what many
>>> others come with.
>>
>> Get something tailor made.  You can get both the best machine and the
>> cheapest that way.  After all, they are all made from the same parts. It
>> is just a question of who puts them together.
>>
>
> Got to find a local place for that. Or I could use Phil Hoobs' supplier
> over the web because he said they are good.

Most custom shops will be good because if they aren't, they are gone. 
Word of mouth is a *big* deal with these sort of shops.

-- 

Rick

On 11/3/2014 3:51 PM, Joerg wrote:
> DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
>> On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 07:25:49 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
>> Gave us:
>>
>>> Need to spiff up my simulation speeds here. IIRC Mike Engelhardt stated
>>> that the Intel i7 is a really good processor for LTSPice. According to
>>> this it looks like the 4790 is the fastest of the bunch:
>>>
>>> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/core-i7-processor.html
>>
>>    That actually looks like a really nice deal.  You can't go wrong.
>
>
> Thanks, good to know.
>
>
>> Mine cost me $2500 and took over a year to build as budgets tightened.
>>
>>   I'll bet my 3930K beats it though.
>>
>>    The newer fabs have higher GHz rates, but are not as fast as their
>> first series were, which the smaller fabs replaced..
>>
>>    I have 6x2 cores, and I don't even know if they do that any more
>> except on Xeons.
>>
>>    I scream past all the benchmarks.  Two more cores really makes a
>> difference.  I beat machines pegging faster raw "speeds" all the time.
>> Mainly because they only have 4x2 cores.
>>
>>    Not cheap.  The i7-3930K was $695, and the X79 Mobo under it was $400.
>> The 32GB RAM was not cheap either for 2133MHz, And that was before the
>> 2400MHz stuff appeared.  I can still upgrade the GPU and the RAM and get
>> even faster.
>>
>
> The Costco machines have 1600MHz RAM so that might put a slight crimp
> into things.
>
>
>>    Since I cannot afford to put $1000 into a Titan video card, I miss on
>> a few benchmarks with my $250 GTX650.
>
>
> I am not at all concerned about video because that's just used for
> static display and sometimes video conferencing. No games, no movies.

If you are going for power, you need to have separate video memory or 
the video eats memory bandwidth which is often the limiting factor on a 
multicore machine.

I haven't kept up with the hotrod machines these days, but I'd be 
willing to bet you will get a lot better performance with multi-banked 
RAM.  Does this machine have two or more memory interfaces or just one?

-- 

Rick

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den mandag den 3. november 2014 21.58.14 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> Den mandag den 3. november 2014 21.20.35 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>>>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>> Den s�ndag den 2. november 2014 18.24.23 UTC+1 skrev Joerg:
>>>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>>>> Carl Ijames wrote:
>>>>>>>> Don't know about computation speed, but this link says the
>>>>>>>> video card will drive 3 monitors: 
>>>>>>>> http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gt-720/specifications.
>>>>>>>>  Looking at Dell's site I don't see any mention of
>>>>>>>> expansion slots, and looking at the one picture with the
>>>>>>>> cover off I really can't see any sockets beyond the video
>>>>>>>> card, so if any further expansion is important you need to
>>>>>>>>  ask Dell for clarification.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Looks like you are right:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.dell.com/ed/business/p/xps-8700/pd 
>>>>>>> http://core0.staticworld.net/images/article/2013/07/1253541_sr-1160-100047019-orig.jpg
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> http://www.pcworld.com/article/2047487/dell-xps-8700-special-editions-review-a-little-less-performance-for-a-lot-less-cash.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Quote "There's only one PCIe x16 slot, which means you won't
>>>>>>> be able to add a second video card to take advantage of
>>>>>>> Nvidia's SLI technology".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No slots. There's one more card in the bottom, not sure what
>>>>>>> that is. But if the video can drive three monitors it should
>>>>>>> be fine, I never added any cards to my current PC either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only question is, how can one connect two regular OPC monitors
>>>>>> to this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gt-720/product-images
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'd expect that you can connect a monitor to each of the three
>>>>> outputs, VGA,DVI,HDMI. I have an old geforce and that's how that
>>>>> works
>>>>>
>>>>> VGA is not much use, but unless you want to watch something from
>>>>> Hollywood DVI and HDMI is the same thing
>>>>>
>>>> I do a lot of video conferencing via web where content moves. Other
>>>> than that just CAD, no movie streaming and such.
>>>>
>>> Then DVI will works just fine, HDMI is just DVI with optional audio
>>> and the encryption Hollywood insists on if you bought a blueray movie
>>>
>>>
>>> So just plug a monitor into both the HDMI and DVI output
>>>
>> Ok, but can one be sure that an ordinary cheap 27" 1920*1080 monitor
>> will plug into either of them? For example, the ViewSonic VA2702w I have
>> here only has the large DVI connector, not the narrow HDMI. It does have
>> VGA though which I am using right now (good enough for my purposes).
>>
> 
> yes, for regular computer monitor HDMI and DVI is the same thing, you just 
> need the right cable or a adapter to get the wires in the right holes ;)  
> 

So then here in the photo the center one is HDMI and the right one is
DVI and that's where the two monitors should go to? I could also hook
one up to VGA like I have now.

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gt-720/product-images

Says dual-link or DVI-D for the DVI connector in the specs, whatever
that means.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

rickman wrote:
> On 11/3/2014 3:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> rickman wrote:
>>> On 11/2/2014 10:25 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> Folks,
>>>>
>>>> Need to spiff up my simulation speeds here. IIRC Mike Engelhardt stated
>>>> that the Intel i7 is a really good processor for LTSPice. According to
>>>> this it looks like the 4790 is the fastest of the bunch:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/core/core-i7-processor.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, what do thee say, is the computer in the Costco link below a good
>>>> deal for LTSpice purposes?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.costco.com/Dell-XPS-8700-Desktop-%7c-Intel-Core-i7-%7c-1GB-Graphics-%7c-Windows-7-Professional.product.100131208.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hard to say.  The devil is in the details.  I have an i7 and I'm not
>>> convinced it is much better if any than other CPUs for most tasks.  One
>>> problem with the quad core is that that each core still runs at the same
>>> speed as a dual core or even slower due to the contention for memory
>>> bandwidth.  That is why I got a laptop with separate graphic memory. But
>>> overall I don't see big speed improvements.  I'd be willing to bet you
>>> won't see a huge difference between this machine and one costing a few
>>> hundred dollars less.  BTW, do you really need a new monitor?  I expect
>>> you can save a couple hundred more by getting a unit without monitor.
>>>
>>
>> That's just it, the price differential for the monitor is only $100.
>> Bought separately they are >$250. I could use it for a dual-monitor
>> setup. Two 27-inchers would allow me to have module spec, schematic,
>> layout and Digikey page in view simultaneously.
> 
> Heck, for $100 that's a good deal.
> 

Yup :-)

> 
>>>> It's also available without MS-Office Home & Student 2013 for $100 less
>>>> but I found that OpenOffice isn't 100% compatible in the Excel area so
>>>> that sounds like an ok deal. My hope is that it can drive two 27"
>>>> monitors but I guess I can always add in another graphics card if not.
>>>
>>> I use LibreOffice which is the same package from the developers who
>>> jumped ship at Oracle to continue development of OpenOffice the way they
>>> think is best.  I don't see compatibility issues and 90% of what I use
>>> office for is the spreadsheet.
>>>
>>
>> I've seen lots of issues, mostly with Excel. No VBA, x-axis in plots
>> gets crunched into oblivion and so on. Not too often but enough that I'd
>> be willing to spend the $100 for the MS-Office suite. Of course my
>> default Office package will be OO.
> 
> The only issue I've seen is when I add block diagrams to a spreadsheet.
>  Seems LO likes to shove it all up into the upper left corner
> sometimes.  I've never had trouble with any graphs, although I can't
> figure out how to add engineering notation to LO or a third Y axis for
> plotting multiple types of data on one plot.  Can you do that in OO or
> Excel?
> 

No idea, I am always at the receiving end. Clients send me Excel plots
of test data logged with stuff that I designed and then it's "Oh, I
can't read some of it". When I open it on a computer that has genuine
MS-Office it works but I do not have enough licenses for all computers.

> 
>>>> Reason I am looking at these is that I absolutely positively do not
>>>> want
>>>> any computer with Windows 8 in here and unfortunately that's what many
>>>> others come with.
>>>
>>> Get something tailor made.  You can get both the best machine and the
>>> cheapest that way.  After all, they are all made from the same parts. It
>>> is just a question of who puts them together.
>>>
>>
>> Got to find a local place for that. Or I could use Phil Hoobs' supplier
>> over the web because he said they are good.
> 
> Most custom shops will be good because if they aren't, they are gone.
> Word of mouth is a *big* deal with these sort of shops.
> 

True. But when it comes to contemporary PCs I am a newbie, so I wouldn't
even know what to look for and PC assemblers don't know anything about
network simulation.

It's like going into Bel Air. My wife knows exactly what to pick for the
ingredients of a meal. Me? I'd be lost, except in the beer aisle. But
plop me down in a restaurant and within milliseconds I know what I'd
like to eat.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

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