On Mon, 3 Jun 2013 04:52:57 -0700 (PDT), bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:>On Monday, June 3, 2013 12:07:35 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > >> >> That's OK, but it probably doesn't guarantee the 78L12 dropout voltage. >> > >Just OK??? It's a complete precision regulator. This may come as a surprise to you but the 3-terminal regulator forces the VGS of the depletion FET to support its current and not the other way around. If you need an absolute guarantee, there is a simple (almost trivial) way to make the voltage differential across the 3-terminal stay above the minimum dropout threshold, which will be left as an exercise for the student. >I'm not a student, and you're a pompous old git. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
low power, HV-in regulator with depletion mosfet
Started by ●June 1, 2013
Reply by ●June 3, 20132013-06-03
Reply by ●June 3, 20132013-06-03
On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 09:35:49 -0400, Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:>John Larkin wrote: > >> On Sun, 2 Jun 2013 20:11:22 -0700 (PDT), bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >>>On Saturday, June 1, 2013 1:52:53 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >>> >>>That's amateurish. See the write-up for Figure 10 and use a cheap $0.17 78L12 that gets you where you need to be. >>>http://www.ixys.com/Documents/AppNotes/IXAN0063.pdf >> >> >> >> That's OK, but it probably doesn't guarantee the 78L12 dropout voltage. >> >> >The gate being connected directly to the output with HV on the other >side of the fet, does not give ma a warm and fuzzy feeling with >fast transients with all that miller, hope the caps don't fail. > > I think that circuit needs a crowbar if that was ever seriously put in >use. Maybe plant some 1.5k or better type TVSes on those nodes. > > I don't know if sims would reveal enough collateral damage, the models >in Ltspice seem to think they can operate beyond infinity. > >Just my opinon, don't pay no mind to me, just a foot hill hick. > >JamieIf Fred had bothered to check the part data sheets, and not just swallow appnotes intact, he would have seen that the Supertex thing is flakey. It has another big problem, two actually, but I'll, as fatheads Fred and Jim like to say, "leave it to the student" to figure out. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply by ●June 3, 20132013-06-03
On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 07:03:42 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:>On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 16:16:02 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 14:01:07 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> >>wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 08:44:28 -0700, John Larkin >>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 08:22:45 -0700, Fred Abse <excretatauris@invalid.invalid> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 11:37:50 -0700, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 13:34:22 -0500, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 10:52:53 -0700, John Larkin >>>>>>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>--- >>>>>>><Snipped LTspice circuit list.> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>And the elusive supertex.lib file, which LTspice declares is nowhere >>>>>>>to be found, is to be found, where??? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It's in plain sight, hardly elusive. >>>>>> >>>>>> Try Google. Or Supertex.com. >>>>> >>>>>It consists of .MODELs, but each ends in an .ENDS. Syntax error. .MODELS >>>>>don't take .ENDS, that's for SUBCKTS, >>>>> >>>>>Fills up the SPICE error log with warnings. Get rid of the .ENDS >>>>>statements. >>>> >>>>I just dumped the Supertex file into the LT Spice lib\sub folder and it worked >>>>fine. >>> >>>--- >>>Regardless, that's a dangerous protocol to follow because whatever you >>>"dump" into any LTspice folders over which Linear Tech exercises >>>control can be deleted at their convenience or, as a matter of course, >>>during synchronization. >> >>Then I'd put it back. > >--- >Yeah, sure. > >Then they'd wipe it out and you'd put it back in again, and they'd >wipe it out again and so on, ad infinitum? > >You're a childish hypocrite who'd bite off his nose to spite his face >when he's given good counsel. >--- > >>> >>>A much better approach is to upload all of the files to a single >>>directory, somewhere, and then have your readers download them all >>>into a single folder. >>> >>>The beauty in that is that all of the data needed to run that sim will >>>be local to that file, making it truly portable as long as the circuit >>>list *.asc file is associated with LTspice. >>> >>>Helmut has posted the procedure over and over again for those of us >>>who are slow to catch on. >> >>Quit whining and design something. > >--- >I notice you're starting to accuse everyone of whining lately; seems >like it's your favorite way of avoiding issues you can't deal with. > >Cheap trick, even for a curmudgeon like you. > >As far as designs go, I just did a little topology for panfilero and >posted a link to a data sheet where he could glean the information >required to finish the design and flesh out the circuit. > >You, on the other hand, posted not just one, but _three_ cockamamie >bullshit circuits using pass transistors for 1.5mA load currents and >no help for panfilero to go forward with the design. > >Laughable, to say the least, but it seems that in an effort to elicit >guffaws from your readers you actually specify _depletion_ mode >transistors!You don't understand depletion mosfets? They have some serious advantages in lots of situations. At least three people make them, so thay're not expensive or exotic. I just designed an active capacitor bleeder for a laser driver. Serious amounts of energy are stored, and I want to caps to be discharged to zero volts in a reasonable time. A depletion fet does it. Consider four ways to discharge a capacitor bank: 1. Pushbutton and resistor; requires manual action 2. Resistor: slow exponential decay 3. Constant-current: works great with a depletion fet 4. Constant-power: ideal, but messy to implement. Envision the four discharge curves. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply by ●June 3, 20132013-06-03
On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 07:02:36 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 09:35:49 -0400, Jamie ><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote: > >>John Larkin wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 2 Jun 2013 20:11:22 -0700 (PDT), bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On Saturday, June 1, 2013 1:52:53 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >>>> >>>>That's amateurish. See the write-up for Figure 10 and use a cheap $0.17 78L12 that gets you where you need to be. >>>>http://www.ixys.com/Documents/AppNotes/IXAN0063.pdf >>> >>> >>> >>> That's OK, but it probably doesn't guarantee the 78L12 dropout voltage. >>> >>> >>The gate being connected directly to the output with HV on the other >>side of the fet, does not give ma a warm and fuzzy feeling with >>fast transients with all that miller, hope the caps don't fail. >> >> I think that circuit needs a crowbar if that was ever seriously put in >>use. Maybe plant some 1.5k or better type TVSes on those nodes. >> >> I don't know if sims would reveal enough collateral damage, the models >>in Ltspice seem to think they can operate beyond infinity. >> >>Just my opinon, don't pay no mind to me, just a foot hill hick. >> >>Jamie > >If Fred had bothered to check the part data sheets, and not just swallow >appnotes intact, he would have seen that the Supertex thing is flakey. > >It has another big problem, two actually, but I'll, as fatheads Fred and Jim >like to say, "leave it to the student" to figure out.Explain to us "fatheads" just how is it flakey [sic]? (You misspelled "flaky" :-) Which request you will ignore, because you fit the mantra, "Stupid is as stupid does". I keep saying, and you, and many others, keep ignoring... the models provided by LTspice are "more perfect than nature", and I've provided examples. If you want some assurance of circuit performance, seek out models provided by the manufacturer, or a private source. And also apply some mental reality checks. Simulations are only as valid as the quality of the models. Fortunately, for me, I/C foundries provide very accurate models, with a large support team to validate their accuracy. Jelly bean discrete part manufacturers rarely do. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85140 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●June 3, 20132013-06-03
On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 08:41:02 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 07:02:36 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > >>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 09:35:49 -0400, Jamie >><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote: >> >>>John Larkin wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, 2 Jun 2013 20:11:22 -0700 (PDT), bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>On Saturday, June 1, 2013 1:52:53 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>That's amateurish. See the write-up for Figure 10 and use a cheap $0.17 78L12 that gets you where you need to be. >>>>>http://www.ixys.com/Documents/AppNotes/IXAN0063.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's OK, but it probably doesn't guarantee the 78L12 dropout voltage. >>>> >>>> >>>The gate being connected directly to the output with HV on the other >>>side of the fet, does not give ma a warm and fuzzy feeling with >>>fast transients with all that miller, hope the caps don't fail. >>> >>> I think that circuit needs a crowbar if that was ever seriously put in >>>use. Maybe plant some 1.5k or better type TVSes on those nodes. >>> >>> I don't know if sims would reveal enough collateral damage, the models >>>in Ltspice seem to think they can operate beyond infinity. >>> >>>Just my opinon, don't pay no mind to me, just a foot hill hick. >>> >>>Jamie >> >>If Fred had bothered to check the part data sheets, and not just swallow >>appnotes intact, he would have seen that the Supertex thing is flakey. >> >>It has another big problem, two actually, but I'll, as fatheads Fred and Jim >>like to say, "leave it to the student" to figure out. > >Explain to us "fatheads" just how is it flakey [sic]? (You misspelled >"flaky" :-) > >Which request you will ignore, because you fit the mantra, "Stupid is >as stupid does". > >I keep saying, and you, and many others, keep ignoring... the models >provided by LTspice are "more perfect than nature", and I've provided >examples. If you want some assurance of circuit performance, seek out >models provided by the manufacturer, or a private source. > >And also apply some mental reality checks. Simulations are only as >valid as the quality of the models. Fortunately, for me, I/C >foundries provide very accurate models, with a large support team to >validate their accuracy. Jelly bean discrete part manufacturers >rarely do. > > ...Jim ThompsonSterling lecture. Now get practical and find the two additional problems (I've pointed out one already) with the Supertex 78L12 bootstrap. Hmmm, there could even be one more! -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply by ●June 3, 20132013-06-03
On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 09:16:11 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 08:41:02 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 07:02:36 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 09:35:49 -0400, Jamie >>><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote: >>> >>>>John Larkin wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sun, 2 Jun 2013 20:11:22 -0700 (PDT), bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On Saturday, June 1, 2013 1:52:53 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>That's amateurish. See the write-up for Figure 10 and use a cheap $0.17 78L12 that gets you where you need to be. >>>>>>http://www.ixys.com/Documents/AppNotes/IXAN0063.pdf >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's OK, but it probably doesn't guarantee the 78L12 dropout voltage. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>The gate being connected directly to the output with HV on the other >>>>side of the fet, does not give ma a warm and fuzzy feeling with >>>>fast transients with all that miller, hope the caps don't fail. >>>> >>>> I think that circuit needs a crowbar if that was ever seriously put in >>>>use. Maybe plant some 1.5k or better type TVSes on those nodes. >>>> >>>> I don't know if sims would reveal enough collateral damage, the models >>>>in Ltspice seem to think they can operate beyond infinity. >>>> >>>>Just my opinon, don't pay no mind to me, just a foot hill hick. >>>> >>>>Jamie >>> >>>If Fred had bothered to check the part data sheets, and not just swallow >>>appnotes intact, he would have seen that the Supertex thing is flakey. >>> >>>It has another big problem, two actually, but I'll, as fatheads Fred and Jim >>>like to say, "leave it to the student" to figure out. >> >>Explain to us "fatheads" just how is it flakey [sic]? (You misspelled >>"flaky" :-) >> >>Which request you will ignore, because you fit the mantra, "Stupid is >>as stupid does". >> >>I keep saying, and you, and many others, keep ignoring... the models >>provided by LTspice are "more perfect than nature", and I've provided >>examples. If you want some assurance of circuit performance, seek out >>models provided by the manufacturer, or a private source. >> >>And also apply some mental reality checks. Simulations are only as >>valid as the quality of the models. Fortunately, for me, I/C >>foundries provide very accurate models, with a large support team to >>validate their accuracy. Jelly bean discrete part manufacturers >>rarely do. >> >> ...Jim Thompson > >Sterling lecture. Now get practical and find the two additional problems (I've >pointed out one already) with the Supertex 78L12 bootstrap. > >Hmmm, there could even be one more!Well! As a start, Figure 10 says "78L05", NOT "78L12". Displaying, again, your deficiency in reading comprehension. But, if you see problems, what don't you spell them out, rather than bloviating? You criticize others for being vague, yet you are the most obtuse poster in this group. Maybe it's you who is the "senile old git", huh ?>:-} ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85140 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●June 3, 20132013-06-03
On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 09:29:10 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 09:16:11 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > >>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 08:41:02 -0700, Jim Thompson >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 07:02:36 -0700, John Larkin >>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 09:35:49 -0400, Jamie >>>><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>>John Larkin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 2 Jun 2013 20:11:22 -0700 (PDT), bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>On Saturday, June 1, 2013 1:52:53 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That's amateurish. See the write-up for Figure 10 and use a cheap $0.17 78L12 that gets you where you need to be. >>>>>>>http://www.ixys.com/Documents/AppNotes/IXAN0063.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> That's OK, but it probably doesn't guarantee the 78L12 dropout voltage. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>The gate being connected directly to the output with HV on the other >>>>>side of the fet, does not give ma a warm and fuzzy feeling with >>>>>fast transients with all that miller, hope the caps don't fail. >>>>> >>>>> I think that circuit needs a crowbar if that was ever seriously put in >>>>>use. Maybe plant some 1.5k or better type TVSes on those nodes. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know if sims would reveal enough collateral damage, the models >>>>>in Ltspice seem to think they can operate beyond infinity. >>>>> >>>>>Just my opinon, don't pay no mind to me, just a foot hill hick. >>>>> >>>>>Jamie >>>> >>>>If Fred had bothered to check the part data sheets, and not just swallow >>>>appnotes intact, he would have seen that the Supertex thing is flakey. >>>> >>>>It has another big problem, two actually, but I'll, as fatheads Fred and Jim >>>>like to say, "leave it to the student" to figure out. >>> >>>Explain to us "fatheads" just how is it flakey [sic]? (You misspelled >>>"flaky" :-) >>> >>>Which request you will ignore, because you fit the mantra, "Stupid is >>>as stupid does". >>> >>>I keep saying, and you, and many others, keep ignoring... the models >>>provided by LTspice are "more perfect than nature", and I've provided >>>examples. If you want some assurance of circuit performance, seek out >>>models provided by the manufacturer, or a private source. >>> >>>And also apply some mental reality checks. Simulations are only as >>>valid as the quality of the models. Fortunately, for me, I/C >>>foundries provide very accurate models, with a large support team to >>>validate their accuracy. Jelly bean discrete part manufacturers >>>rarely do. >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >>Sterling lecture. Now get practical and find the two additional problems (I've >>pointed out one already) with the Supertex 78L12 bootstrap. >> >>Hmmm, there could even be one more! > >Well! As a start, Figure 10 says "78L05", NOT "78L12". Displaying, >again, your deficiency in reading comprehension.Fred, not I, pointed to the Supertex figure and suggested using a 78L12. Interesting suggestion, coupled with a stupid insult. But that doesn't matter. The bootstrap, as shown, has several hazards with any 78Lxx.> >But, if you see problems, what don't you spell them out, rather than >bloviating? You criticize others for being vague, yet you are the >most obtuse poster in this group. Maybe it's you who is the "senile >old git", huh ?>:-} > > ...Jim ThompsonIt's incredible that you can't see even one of the problems. Electronic designers need imagination, not to just conceive circuits, but also to imagine all their hazards. -- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply by ●June 3, 20132013-06-03
On 06/02/2013 07:49 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: <snip>> http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/DepletionModeRegulatorWithBootstrap.pdfWhere does "BOOTSTRAP" come from? It looks like this is a startup circuit rather than a standalone regulator, since when BOOTSTRAP comes on, it appears as though it will turn off the FET. (The voltages and Zener types aren't marked, so it's hard to be sure, but it sure looks like that's the intent.) If the bootstrap were intended to improve the regulation of the MOSFET loop, it would be driving the top of ROFF1 rather than the output. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
Reply by ●June 3, 20132013-06-03
On Monday, June 3, 2013 12:29:10 PM UTC-4, Jim Thompson wrote:> >=20 >=20 > But, if you see problems, what don't you spell them out, rather than >=20 > bloviating? You criticize others for being vague, yet you are the >=20 > most obtuse poster in this group. Maybe it's you who is the "senile >=20 > old git", huh ?>:-} >=20 > =09 >=20 > ...Jim ThompsonLarkin is throwing the typical "not invented by me" hissy-fit, how childish= . There are any number of ways to make the Supertex circuit bullet-proof. T= his, or anything obviously equivalent to it, takes care of the "That's OK, = but it probably doesn't guarantee the 78L12 dropout voltage" problem. Please view in a fixed-width font such as Courier. . . HV+ . | . | . +----- . | | . | [Ra1] . | | . | | . | | + V - . |_|| | \ z . depletion ||--+-----|<|--- . FET >|| \ | . | | . | | . | V > V | . | + IO - z - | . | ------- | . | | | | . +----| 78LXX |----+----+--- . | | | | | . | ------- | | . =3D=3D=3D | =3D=3D=3D [Ra2] . | | | | . | | | | . ---+--------+--------+----+--- . . . .>=20 > --=20 >=20 > | James E.Thompson | mens | >=20 > | Analog Innovations | et | >=20 > | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | >=20 > | San Tan Valley, AZ 85140 Skype: Contacts Only | | >=20 > | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | >=20 > | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | >=20 > =20 >=20 > I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●June 3, 20132013-06-03
On 06/03/2013 12:42 PM, John Larkin wrote: <snip>> Electronic designers need imagination, not to just conceive circuits, but also > to imagine all their hazards.Well, sorry to introduce discussion into this wonderfully artistic pissing contest, but I'll take that invitation. 0. As you already mentioned, the IXYS FETs don't have a pinchoff voltage that's guaranteed to be high enough to accommodate the 78Lxx's dropout voltage. 1. The 78Lxx can't sink any significant current from its output, so as Jamie or somebody mentioned, C2 had better not open up, or the 78Lxx is liable to blow up when the HV is applied. 2. The usual 78xx vulnerability to shorting the input to ground, if C2 is too big. 3. No protection, and possible danger if the FET shorts. 4. No HV supply reversal protection. Did I miss any? Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
