Grid and Electric Vehicles

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 10:49:58 AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2023 21:29:49 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman 
> <bill....@ieee.org> wrote: 
> > 
> >Except that sometimes you can. Modular nuclear reactors aren't items of commerce yet, and probably never will be - the power they produce seems to be just as expensive as that produced by regular nuclear reactors, and nowhere near as cheap as that produced by renewable sources (even if you can't bring yourself to accept this).
> Big nuclear reactors need an active emergency cooling system and hence 
> you avoid building such reactors near large cities. The emergency 
> cooling systems failed in Fukushima, because all the emergency diesels 
> became wet due to the tsunami. 
> 
> In big reactors about 40 % of the reactor thermal power is used for 
> electricity, 60 % is lost in the sea or air. 
> 
> Those smaller modular reactors do not need active emergency cooling, 
> passive emergency cooling is sufficient, thus it can be built closer 
> to cities.The shorter distances make it possible to use the extra heat 
> for district heating and/or cooling.

Ok, once we have small, modular reactors ready to be sited, we can discuss them.  But, until they are actually available and not just an idea on a Wikipedia page, we can ignore them as options for now. 

If you want to discuss "the future", we can talk about $0.01 per kWh batteries and total renewable energy costs (including storage) of $0.10 per kWh.  

-- 

  Rick C.

  ---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  ---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 08:52:01 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

>
>> Of course power lines could be used to send  power into this area. However not very practical with current  technology. Reasonably priced room temperature super conductive cables would be required, but no such wonders exist today.
>
>The local hydrogen generating venture capitalists were contemplating an undersea cable from Northern Australia to Singapore.
>
>Nord Link is the current record holder at 625 km, but that scheme cotemplated a 4,500 km undersea cable. No super-conductors involved.

A 1 m long 1 mm2 copper wire has a resistance of 17 mOhm, thus 1 km
has 17 ohm resistance and the total loop resistance 4500 km (x2) cable
is 150 kOhm. Running the ordinary 1 A/mm2 current density through the
loop and 150 KV is lost. Using 0,5 A/mm2 current density the total
voltage loss will drop to 75 kV, which would be bearable for a 1000 kV
system.

If you would like to run 1 GW through the system, the current needs to
be 1000 A, so each cable needs to have a 2000 mm2 cross section at 0.5
A/mm2 (50 mm diameter)

The copper density is 9 kg/dm3 thus 18 kg/m or 160000 toms for the
whole system. Assuming 5 euros/kg, the total cost of raw copper would
be 800 million euros. Making HV cables of it would multiply the price
several times.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 10:49:58?AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 Sep 2023 21:29:49 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman 
>> <bill....@ieee.org> wrote: 
>> > 
>> >Except that sometimes you can. Modular nuclear reactors aren't items of commerce yet, and probably never will be - the power they produce seems to be just as expensive as that produced by regular nuclear reactors, and nowhere near as cheap as that produced by renewable sources (even if you can't bring yourself to accept this).
>> Big nuclear reactors need an active emergency cooling system and hence 
>> you avoid building such reactors near large cities. The emergency 
>> cooling systems failed in Fukushima, because all the emergency diesels 
>> became wet due to the tsunami. 
>> 
>> In big reactors about 40 % of the reactor thermal power is used for 
>> electricity, 60 % is lost in the sea or air. 
>> 
>> Those smaller modular reactors do not need active emergency cooling, 
>> passive emergency cooling is sufficient, thus it can be built closer 
>> to cities.The shorter distances make it possible to use the extra heat 
>> for district heating and/or cooling.
>
>Ok, once we have small, modular reactors ready to be sited, we can discuss them.  But, until they are actually available and not just an idea on a Wikipedia page, we can ignore them as options for now. 

Actually two KLT-40 icebreaker reactors are mounted on the Academik
Lomonosov barge, which is currently parked at some town on a Siberian
river.

>If you want to discuss "the future", we can talk about $0.01 per kWh batteries and total renewable energy costs (including storage) of $0.10 per kWh.  

In article <33dmfi5fh5t6l10jmcfqd3rh82u1k6cg7c@4ax.com>, 
upsidedown@downunder.com says...
> 
> A 1 m long 1 mm2 copper wire has a resistance of 17 mOhm, thus 1 km
> has 17 ohm resistance and the total loop resistance 4500 km (x2) cable
> is 150 kOhm. Running the ordinary 1 A/mm2 current density through the
> loop and 150 KV is lost. Using 0,5 A/mm2 current density the total
> voltage loss will drop to 75 kV, which would be bearable for a 1000 kV
> system.
> 
> If you would like to run 1 GW through the system, the current needs to
> be 1000 A, so each cable needs to have a 2000 mm2 cross section at 0.5
> A/mm2 (50 mm diameter)
> 
> The copper density is 9 kg/dm3 thus 18 kg/m or 160000 toms for the
> whole system. Assuming 5 euros/kg, the total cost of raw copper would
> be 800 million euros. Making HV cables of it would multiply the price
> several times.
> 
> 
> 

There is a lot off math involved there.

I do not know how it will change things but if 60 HZ or some other AC 
frequency is used on very long wires the lines act like a radio 
frequency transmission line and other factors may need to be added in.

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 12:38:54 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <33dmfi5fh5t6l10jm...@4ax.com>, 
> upsid...@downunder.com says...
> > 
> > A 1 m long 1 mm2 copper wire has a resistance of 17 mOhm, thus 1 km 
> > has 17 ohm resistance and the total loop resistance 4500 km (x2) cable 
> > is 150 kOhm. Running the ordinary 1 A/mm2 current density through the 
> > loop and 150 KV is lost. Using 0,5 A/mm2 current density the total 
> > voltage loss will drop to 75 kV, which would be bearable for a 1000 kV 
> > system. 
> > 
> > If you would like to run 1 GW through the system, the current needs to 
> > be 1000 A, so each cable needs to have a 2000 mm2 cross section at 0.5 
> > A/mm2 (50 mm diameter) 
> > 
> > The copper density is 9 kg/dm3 thus 18 kg/m or 160000 toms for the 
> > whole system. Assuming 5 euros/kg, the total cost of raw copper would 
> > be 800 million euros. Making HV cables of it would multiply the price 
> > several times. 
> > 
> > 
> >
> There is a lot off math involved there. 
> 
> I do not know how it will change things but if 60 HZ or some other AC 
> frequency is used on very long wires the lines act like a radio 
> frequency transmission line and other factors may need to be added in.

It's not that the wires become radio antenna.  Rather there is an effect called the skin effect, where the current is concentrated near the surface of the conductor.  The work around, is to split the single fat cable into multiple smaller diameter cables.  If you look at high voltage power lines, you will often see each of the three phase conductors spread by triangular spacers with three wires.  The three smaller wires carry more current than a single wire with the same copper, because of the skin effect. 

-- 

  Rick C.

  --+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

fredag den 8. september 2023 kl. 19.54.14 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 12:38:54 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: 
> > In article <33dmfi5fh5t6l10jm...@4ax.com>, 
> > upsid...@downunder.com says... 
> > > 
> > > A 1 m long 1 mm2 copper wire has a resistance of 17 mOhm, thus 1 km 
> > > has 17 ohm resistance and the total loop resistance 4500 km (x2) cable 
> > > is 150 kOhm. Running the ordinary 1 A/mm2 current density through the 
> > > loop and 150 KV is lost. Using 0,5 A/mm2 current density the total 
> > > voltage loss will drop to 75 kV, which would be bearable for a 1000 kV 
> > > system. 
> > > 
> > > If you would like to run 1 GW through the system, the current needs to 
> > > be 1000 A, so each cable needs to have a 2000 mm2 cross section at 0.5 
> > > A/mm2 (50 mm diameter) 
> > > 
> > > The copper density is 9 kg/dm3 thus 18 kg/m or 160000 toms for the 
> > > whole system. Assuming 5 euros/kg, the total cost of raw copper would 
> > > be 800 million euros. Making HV cables of it would multiply the price 
> > > several times. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > There is a lot off math involved there. 
> > 
> > I do not know how it will change things but if 60 HZ or some other AC 
> > frequency is used on very long wires the lines act like a radio 
> > frequency transmission line and other factors may need to be added in.
> It's not that the wires become radio antenna. Rather there is an effect called the skin effect, where the current is concentrated near the surface of the conductor. The work around, is to split the single fat cable into multiple smaller diameter cables. If you look at high voltage power lines, you will often see each of the three phase conductors spread by triangular spacers with three wires. The three smaller wires carry more current than a single wire with the same copper, because of the skin effect. 
> 

afaik the big overhead lines are usually aluminium, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-conductor_steel-reinforced_cable

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

> alled the skin effect, where the current is concentrated near the
> surface o f the conductor. The work around, is to split the single fat
> cable into multiple smaller diameter cables. If you look at high voltage
> power lines, you will often see each of the three phase conductors
> spread by triangular spacers with three wires. The three smaller wires
> carry more current than a single wire with the same copper, because of
> the skin effect. 
>> 
> 
> afaik the big overhead lines are usually aluminium,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-conductor_steel-reinforced_cable 

Long distance and undersea cables are usually DC. For example

"A large portion of the power generated by Hydro-Qu&#4294967295;bec is transmitted 
using 735-kV lines. Without these high-voltage lines, the landscape would 
be cluttered with towers. One 735-kV line is equal to four 315-kV lines, 
the next voltage level down."

"Hydro-Qu&#4294967295;bec has a direct-current line (which goes from the Baie-James 
region to Sandy Pond, near Boston) as well as many direct-current 
interconnections with neighboring systems."

http://www.hydroquebec.com/learning/transport/grandes-distances.html

An underground DC cable is planned:

"In Qu&#4294967295;bec, the project involves the construction of a line that will span 
57.7 km (56.1 km underground and 1.6 km underwater). This 400-kV direct 
current line will connect Hertel substation in La Prairie to an 
interconnection point in the Rivi&#4294967295;re Richelieu at the Canada&#4294967295;United States 
border."

https://www.hydroquebec.com/projects/hertel-new-york-interconnection/


-- 
MRM

fredag den 8. september 2023 kl. 21.25.09 UTC+2 skrev Mike Monett VE3BTI:
> Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: 
> 
> > alled the skin effect, where the current is concentrated near the
> > surface o f the conductor. The work around, is to split the single fat
> > cable into multiple smaller diameter cables. If you look at high voltage 
> > power lines, you will often see each of the three phase conductors 
> > spread by triangular spacers with three wires. The three smaller wires 
> > carry more current than a single wire with the same copper, because of 
> > the skin effect. 
> >> 
> > 
> > afaik the big overhead lines are usually aluminium, 
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-conductor_steel-reinforced_cable
> Long distance and undersea cables are usually DC. For example 

yeh the losses are higher with AC and you often need conversion at the ends anyway 
because the grids aren't synchronized

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 2:18:11 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> fredag den 8. september 2023 kl. 19.54.14 UTC+2 skrev Ricky: 
> > On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 12:38:54 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: 
> > > In article <33dmfi5fh5t6l10jm...@4ax.com>, 
> > > upsid...@downunder.com says... 
> > > > 
> > > > A 1 m long 1 mm2 copper wire has a resistance of 17 mOhm, thus 1 km 
> > > > has 17 ohm resistance and the total loop resistance 4500 km (x2) cable 
> > > > is 150 kOhm. Running the ordinary 1 A/mm2 current density through the 
> > > > loop and 150 KV is lost. Using 0,5 A/mm2 current density the total 
> > > > voltage loss will drop to 75 kV, which would be bearable for a 1000 kV 
> > > > system. 
> > > > 
> > > > If you would like to run 1 GW through the system, the current needs to 
> > > > be 1000 A, so each cable needs to have a 2000 mm2 cross section at 0.5 
> > > > A/mm2 (50 mm diameter) 
> > > > 
> > > > The copper density is 9 kg/dm3 thus 18 kg/m or 160000 toms for the 
> > > > whole system. Assuming 5 euros/kg, the total cost of raw copper would 
> > > > be 800 million euros. Making HV cables of it would multiply the price 
> > > > several times. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > There is a lot off math involved there. 
> > > 
> > > I do not know how it will change things but if 60 HZ or some other AC 
> > > frequency is used on very long wires the lines act like a radio 
> > > frequency transmission line and other factors may need to be added in. 
> > It's not that the wires become radio antenna. Rather there is an effect called the skin effect, where the current is concentrated near the surface of the conductor. The work around, is to split the single fat cable into multiple smaller diameter cables. If you look at high voltage power lines, you will often see each of the three phase conductors spread by triangular spacers with three wires. The three smaller wires carry more current than a single wire with the same copper, because of the skin effect. 
> >
> afaik the big overhead lines are usually aluminium, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-conductor_steel-reinforced_cable

I stand corrected.  How is that relevant to what I was saying?  The same principles apply for the skin effect. 

-- 

  Rick C.

  --++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  --++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

fredag den 8. september 2023 kl. 21.59.43 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 2:18:11 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: 
> > fredag den 8. september 2023 kl. 19.54.14 UTC+2 skrev Ricky: 
> > > On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 12:38:54 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: 
> > > > In article <33dmfi5fh5t6l10jm...@4ax.com>, 
> > > > upsid...@downunder.com says... 
> > > > > 
> > > > > A 1 m long 1 mm2 copper wire has a resistance of 17 mOhm, thus 1 km 
> > > > > has 17 ohm resistance and the total loop resistance 4500 km (x2) cable 
> > > > > is 150 kOhm. Running the ordinary 1 A/mm2 current density through the 
> > > > > loop and 150 KV is lost. Using 0,5 A/mm2 current density the total 
> > > > > voltage loss will drop to 75 kV, which would be bearable for a 1000 kV 
> > > > > system. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > If you would like to run 1 GW through the system, the current needs to 
> > > > > be 1000 A, so each cable needs to have a 2000 mm2 cross section at 0.5 
> > > > > A/mm2 (50 mm diameter) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > The copper density is 9 kg/dm3 thus 18 kg/m or 160000 toms for the 
> > > > > whole system. Assuming 5 euros/kg, the total cost of raw copper would 
> > > > > be 800 million euros. Making HV cables of it would multiply the price 
> > > > > several times. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > There is a lot off math involved there. 
> > > > 
> > > > I do not know how it will change things but if 60 HZ or some other AC 
> > > > frequency is used on very long wires the lines act like a radio 
> > > > frequency transmission line and other factors may need to be added in. 
> > > It's not that the wires become radio antenna. Rather there is an effect called the skin effect, where the current is concentrated near the surface of the conductor. The work around, is to split the single fat cable into multiple smaller diameter cables. If you look at high voltage power lines, you will often see each of the three phase conductors spread by triangular spacers with three wires. The three smaller wires carry more current than a single wire with the same copper, because of the skin effect. 
> > > 
> > afaik the big overhead lines are usually aluminium, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-conductor_steel-reinforced_cable
> I stand corrected. How is that relevant to what I was saying? The same principles apply for the skin effect. 

as it say right there on the page, you see everything as an attack?