Anyone is free to answer, I just wanted Bill look at it.
Running tests on the 2"x2"x 34" glass vessel with aluminum tape electrodes on two sides. The emulsion is 23% water and 77% soybean oil.
The first test the water was clean, we drain the unit shake the oil to get a new emulsion and repeat the test with some small change and run again, every subsequent test we get nearly the same separation in the same time, but the water is now cloudy/darker. My son said he has noticed the phenomenon before.
Why would a first test have clean water and repeats
with the same solution have cloudy/darker water?
Thanks All.
Electrostatic emulsion separation [Bill Sloman]
Started by ●August 16, 2023
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
Lamont Cranston <amdx62@gmail.com> wrote:> Anyone is free to answer, I just wanted Bill look at it. > Running tests on the 2"x2"x 34" glass vessel with aluminum tape > electrodes on two sides. The emulsion is 23% water and 77% soybean oil. > The first test the water was clean, we drain the unit shake the oil to > get a new emulsion and repeat the test with some small change and run > again, every subsequent test we get nearly the same separation in the > same time, but the water is now cloudy/darker. My son said he has > noticed the phenomenon before. > Why would a first test have clean water and repeats > with the same solution have cloudy/darker water? > Thanks All. >If smaller oil droplets are slower to coalesce, you’d expect their concentration to increase with the number of cycles, unless you allowed enough time for the smallest ones. Since the dielectric force goes like the volume, and the drag goes like the area, that’s not too surprising. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Reply by ●August 16, 20232023-08-16
> If smaller oil droplets are slower to coalesce, you’d expect their > concentration to increase with the number of cycles, unless you allowed > enough time for the smallest ones. > > Since the dielectric force goes like the volume, and the drag goes like the > area, that’s not too surprising. > > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs > > -- > Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / > Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog ElectronicsHmm, Maybe, I'll save a portion of the next drain and let the water evaporate to see if there is an oil left. I may also run a much longer test to see if it clears, the level of water in the vessel is real close to the proper percentage at 10 minutes, I have let it run 20 minutes though. More fun! Thanks for the input, Mikek
Reply by ●August 17, 20232023-08-17
On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 10:06:46 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:> Lamont Cranston <amd...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Anyone is free to answer, I just wanted Bill look at it. > > Running tests on the 2"x2"x 34" glass vessel with aluminum tape > > electrodes on two sides. The emulsion is 23% water and 77% soybean oil. > > The first test the water was clean, we drain the unit shake the oil to > > get a new emulsion and repeat the test with some small change and run > > again, every subsequent test we get nearly the same separation in the > > same time, but the water is now cloudy/darker. My son said he has > > noticed the phenomenon before. > > Why would a first test have clean water and repeats > > with the same solution have cloudy/darker water? > > Thanks All. > > > If smaller oil droplets are slower to coalesce, you’d expect their > concentration to increase with the number of cycles, unless you allowed > enough time for the smallest ones. > > Since the dielectric force goes like the volume, and the drag goes like the > area, that’s not too surprising.What more needs to be said? I certainly can't think of anything to add. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●August 17, 20232023-08-17
On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 2:16:12 AM UTC-5, Anthony William Sloman wrote:> On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 10:06:46 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote: > > Lamont Cranston <amd...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Anyone is free to answer, I just wanted Bill look at it. > > > Running tests on the 2"x2"x 34" glass vessel with aluminum tape > > > electrodes on two sides. The emulsion is 23% water and 77% soybean oil. > > > The first test the water was clean, we drain the unit shake the oil to > > > get a new emulsion and repeat the test with some small change and run > > > again, every subsequent test we get nearly the same separation in the > > > same time, but the water is now cloudy/darker. My son said he has > > > noticed the phenomenon before. > > > Why would a first test have clean water and repeats > > > with the same solution have cloudy/darker water? > > > Thanks All. > > > > > If smaller oil droplets are slower to coalesce, you’d expect their > > concentration to increase with the number of cycles, unless you allowed > > enough time for the smallest ones. > > > > Since the dielectric force goes like the volume, and the drag goes like the > > area, that’s not too surprising.> What more needs to be said? I certainly can't think of anything to add. > > -- > Bill Sloman, SydneyI don't know, I have confusing results. I ran a two hour test and drained the water onto a paper towel and a piece of printer paper. I see no hint of any oil on either paper. I did see an ever so slight increase in the clarity of the water. So maybe 2 hrs is not enough time to remove tiny droplets, if they are there, or it is something else. Running the numbers going from 20 minutes to 2 hrs removed an extra 1.5% of water from the oil. At the facility their chemist can more accurately measure how much water is left in the oil. I went from 22.5% water at 20 minutes to 23.4% water at 2 hrs. Crude measurement using a ruler, but usable for estimates. Another item, there is a thin black line between the water and oil level they call a rag layer, I would use flock layer. What could this layer consist of? It does get thinner in the two hour run. Here's a picture of the layers at 20 Minutes and two hours, with an inset of the slight difference of clarity. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ay3upu11pwz0q52qko7fg/TV-20-Minute-vs-2Hr-Mark.jpg?rlkey=xfqhtgn356c38gsjbosqwo07m&dl=0 More fun today. Thanks, Mikek
Reply by ●August 19, 20232023-08-19
On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 7:24:39 AM UTC-5, Lamont Cranston wrote:> > > > The first test the water was clean, we drain the unit shake the oil to > > > > get a new emulsion and repeat the test with some small change and run > > > > again, every subsequent test we get nearly the same separation in the > > > > same time, but the water is now cloudy/darker. My son said he has > > > > noticed the phenomenon before. > > > > Why would a first test have clean water and repeats > > > > with the same solution have cloudy/darker water? > > > > Thanks All.A little explanation, I have an LED light on the back side of the vessel to help the camera see what is happening. I let the vessel drain over night, The first test with emulsion that has been treat several times, had a clear transparent water. The very next test the water was cloudy you could not see through it. It turns out to be a simple explanation. There is oil left on the glass after draining, making the water seem cloudy and opaque, it is the oil on the glass that make it opaque. When I left it over night most of the oil drained of the glass to the bottom. Mikek
Reply by ●August 22, 20232023-08-22
On 8/19/2023 4:31 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:> On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 7:24:39 AM UTC-5, Lamont Cranston wrote: > >>>>> The first test the water was clean, we drain the unit shake the oil to >>>>> get a new emulsion and repeat the test with some small change and run >>>>> again, every subsequent test we get nearly the same separation in the >>>>> same time, but the water is now cloudy/darker. My son said he has >>>>> noticed the phenomenon before. >>>>> Why would a first test have clean water and repeats >>>>> with the same solution have cloudy/darker water? >>>>> Thanks All. > > A little explanation, I have an LED light on the back side of the vessel to help the camera see > what is happening. > I let the vessel drain over night, The first test with emulsion that has been treat several times, had a clear transparent water. > The very next test the water was cloudy you could not see through it. It turns out to be a simple explanation. > There is oil left on the glass after draining, making the water seem cloudy and opaque, it is the oil on the glass that make it opaque. > When I left it over night most of the oil drained of the glass to the bottom. > MikekIs it safe to assume that the electrodes are on the outside, not in contact with your emulsion? Can you rinse the glass container with rubbing alcohol? It would have an affinity for the oil plus water. - John
Reply by ●August 22, 20232023-08-22
> > I let the vessel drain over night, The first test with emulsion that has been treat several times, had a clear transparent water. > > The very next test the water was cloudy you could not see through it. It turns out to be a simple explanation. > > There is oil left on the glass after draining, making the water seem cloudy and opaque, it is the oil on the glass that make it opaque. > > When I left it over night most of the oil drained of the glass to the bottom. > > Mikek > Is it safe to assume that the electrodes are on the outside, not in > contact with your emulsion? > > Can you rinse the glass container with rubbing alcohol? It would have an > affinity for the oil plus water. > > - JohnAt this point the clarity is not a problem, now that we know it is oil on the glass, until we figured that out we weren't sure why the water was milky. It wasn't milky, we were just looking through a layer oil. If you would like to see a short video, I put a dropbox link. At 10 seconds look at the top 2/3 of the tube to see all the globules of water falling. It gets very slow after 45 seconds. Start the video over and watch all the waves at the bottom of the tube. Without power it takes about an hour to get close to that amount of separation. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/15gcd0r1hq9p0cgev1zwn/9-TV-4KV-60-Hz-AC-transformer-8-19.mp4?rlkey=k0mwvklt6dng95l3pr9ksfpxh&dl=0 Mikek P.S. Starting to craft ideas for a stainless steel version.
