tirsdag den 25. juli 2023 kl. 18.17.29 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:> On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 6:41:33 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > > https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/40slcbgbngggdcwwt95vi/Relay_Drivers.jpg?rlkey=gfai2trx0n6bnja2yl4hber7i&raw=1 > > > > I like C1, with just a high-enough-voltage mosfet that it survives the > > max flyback voltage. > > > > C2 would use some exotic avalanche-rated thing. > > > > Everthing else needs more parts. > > > > Any more? > Is that a 200mW coil? So at 5V they have Rc = 25/0.2= 125R. But the abbreviated data sheet says it's Rc of 720R, which makes no sense whatsoever,..> TE says some of that PCJ series are pending obsolescence.they come in difference version with different coil voltages, 5V coil is 125R, 12V coil is 720R
many relay drivers
Started by ●July 24, 2023
Reply by ●July 25, 20232023-07-25
Reply by ●July 25, 20232023-07-25
On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 12:46:56 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> tirsdag den 25. juli 2023 kl. 18.17.29 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs: > > On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 6:41:33 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > > > https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/40slcbgbngggdcwwt95vi/Relay_Drivers.jpg?rlkey=gfai2trx0n6bnja2yl4hber7i&raw=1 > > > > > > I like C1, with just a high-enough-voltage mosfet that it survives the > > > max flyback voltage. > > > > > > C2 would use some exotic avalanche-rated thing. > > > > > > Everthing else needs more parts. > > > > > > Any more? > > Is that a 200mW coil? So at 5V they have Rc = 25/0.2= 125R. But the abbreviated data sheet says it's Rc of 720R, which makes no sense whatsoever, > .. > > TE says some of that PCJ series are pending obsolescence. > they come in difference version with different coil voltages, 5V coil is 125R, 12V coil is 720RThe one 3V/5V I looked at said 200mW and 720R coil.
Reply by ●July 25, 20232023-07-25
tirsdag den 25. juli 2023 kl. 18.49.22 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 12:46:56 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > tirsdag den 25. juli 2023 kl. 18.17.29 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs: > > > On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 6:41:33 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > > > > https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/40slcbgbngggdcwwt95vi/Relay_Drivers.jpg?rlkey=gfai2trx0n6bnja2yl4hber7i&raw=1 > > > > > > > > I like C1, with just a high-enough-voltage mosfet that it survives the > > > > max flyback voltage. > > > > > > > > C2 would use some exotic avalanche-rated thing. > > > > > > > > Everthing else needs more parts. > > > > > > > > Any more? > > > Is that a 200mW coil? So at 5V they have Rc = 25/0.2= 125R. But the abbreviated data sheet says it's Rc of 720R, which makes no sense whatsoever, > > .. > > > TE says some of that PCJ series are pending obsolescence. > > they come in difference version with different coil voltages, 5V coil is 125R, 12V coil is 720R > The one 3V/5V I looked at said 200mW and 720R coil.https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1717899.pdf
Reply by ●July 26, 20232023-07-26
On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Jul 2023 09:01:31 -0700) it happened John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in <hcsvbi5qh32b4fm3go7mlkitktphr2qr8c@4ax.com>:>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 05:20:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >wrote: > >>On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Jul 2023 15:41:16 -0700) it happened John Larkin >><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >><m9vtbidjnfs514s4s26nhj59m1ojp8q2m1@4ax.com>: >> >>> >>>https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/40slcbgbngggdcwwt95vi/Relay_Drivers.jpg?rlkey=gfai2trx0n6bnja2yl4hber7i&raw=1 >>> >>>I like C1, with just a high-enough-voltage mosfet that it survives the >>>max flyback voltage. >>> >>>C2 would use some exotic avalanche-rated thing. >>> >>>Everthing else needs more parts. >>> >>>Any more? >> >>I would use A to be safe, pevents RF oscillations and delivers power back into the supply ;-) > >That's no fun. Everybody does that. > >The stored energy is dissipated in the diode and the coil resistance.You could use it to make some high voltage rail on the flyback if the relays work often enough... :-) As to no fun: No lack of RF noise is important (you may need to pass some standards perhaps). Driving on the right side of the road may seem dull but it is safer. The diode thing has worked OK in millions of equipment for as long as there have been relay drivers.
Reply by ●July 26, 20232023-07-26
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 05:03:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:>On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Jul 2023 09:01:31 -0700) it happened John Larkin ><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in ><hcsvbi5qh32b4fm3go7mlkitktphr2qr8c@4ax.com>: > >>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 05:20:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote: >> >>>On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Jul 2023 15:41:16 -0700) it happened John Larkin >>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >>><m9vtbidjnfs514s4s26nhj59m1ojp8q2m1@4ax.com>: >>> >>>> >>>>https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/40slcbgbngggdcwwt95vi/Relay_Drivers.jpg?rlkey=gfai2trx0n6bnja2yl4hber7i&raw=1 >>>> >>>>I like C1, with just a high-enough-voltage mosfet that it survives the >>>>max flyback voltage. >>>> >>>>C2 would use some exotic avalanche-rated thing. >>>> >>>>Everthing else needs more parts. >>>> >>>>Any more? >>> >>>I would use A to be safe, pevents RF oscillations and delivers power back into the supply ;-) >> >>That's no fun. Everybody does that. >> >>The stored energy is dissipated in the diode and the coil resistance. > >You could use it to make some high voltage rail on the flyback if the relays work often enough... :-) >As to no fun: No lack of RF noise is important (you may need to pass some standards perhaps). >Driving on the right side of the road may seem dull but it is safer. >The diode thing has worked OK in millions of equipment for as long as there have been relay drivers.Adding 120+ diodes might cost another PCB layer. I don't think a once-a-minute ringy thing would even show up on a spectrum analyzer.
Reply by ●July 26, 20232023-07-26
On a sunny day (Wed, 26 Jul 2023 06:42:07 -0700) it happened John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in <vh82ci91224q6qmmj9bcs2uuu4dsb24ago@4ax.com>:>On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 05:03:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >wrote: > >>On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Jul 2023 09:01:31 -0700) it happened John Larkin >><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >><hcsvbi5qh32b4fm3go7mlkitktphr2qr8c@4ax.com>: >> >>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 05:20:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Jul 2023 15:41:16 -0700) it happened John Larkin >>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >>>><m9vtbidjnfs514s4s26nhj59m1ojp8q2m1@4ax.com>: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/40slcbgbngggdcwwt95vi/Relay_Drivers.jpg?rlkey=gfai2trx0n6bnja2yl4hber7i&raw=1 >>>>> >>>>>I like C1, with just a high-enough-voltage mosfet that it survives the >>>>>max flyback voltage. >>>>> >>>>>C2 would use some exotic avalanche-rated thing. >>>>> >>>>>Everthing else needs more parts. >>>>> >>>>>Any more? >>>> >>>>I would use A to be safe, pevents RF oscillations and delivers power back into the supply ;-) >>> >>>That's no fun. Everybody does that. >>> >>>The stored energy is dissipated in the diode and the coil resistance. >> >>You could use it to make some high voltage rail on the flyback if the relays work often enough... :-) >>As to no fun: No lack of RF noise is important (you may need to pass some standards perhaps). >>Driving on the right side of the road may seem dull but it is safer. >>The diode thing has worked OK in millions of equipment for as long as there have been relay drivers. > >Adding 120+ diodes might cost another PCB layer.You have 120 relays on one board???>I don't think a once-a-minute ringy thing would even show up on a >spectrum analyzer.No but it would screw up your radio's music perhaps. Things happen, strange things.. 'Arte' TV channel had 'The Blues brothers' a movie last Sunday I watched it. Then I thought: 'should have recorded it (was in HD I have the lower resolution). So looked and repeat was next day during day time, set a timer. Thing started but aborted with 'USB error' after about 2 GB... sigh, buttons on remote no longer worked either... So.. well, finally unplugged it and all worked again.... Many GB in HD... all in 4 GB sections, but now I am missing a part. Looks like it was a mains dip.. 128 GB USB stick is behaving normal.. Now that movie, and driving on the wrong side of the road, .. I guess many here have seen it.. reminded me of that night with Jerry, he was driving, road with barrier in the middle for the other way he switched lanes and drove against the traffic .. now you have to know Jerry, there is a stones song 'paint it black' he was my neighbor and had his room painted black.. He asked me (while driving the wrong way) 'are you not afraid? Well not really, but told him survival chances were better if we moved back to the right side of the road, which he eventually did, pointed out the funeral place next to his parents house, did that make him do it? Jerry was OK, met an old friend of him years later (he had moved), he told me Jerry had become very aggressive. No idea if he is still around. But a nice movie, good music... no silly effects, real stuff.. Those days...
Reply by ●July 26, 20232023-07-26
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:43:38 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:>On a sunny day (Wed, 26 Jul 2023 06:42:07 -0700) it happened John Larkin ><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in ><vh82ci91224q6qmmj9bcs2uuu4dsb24ago@4ax.com>: > >>On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 05:03:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote: >> >>>On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Jul 2023 09:01:31 -0700) it happened John Larkin >>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >>><hcsvbi5qh32b4fm3go7mlkitktphr2qr8c@4ax.com>: >>> >>>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 05:20:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Jul 2023 15:41:16 -0700) it happened John Larkin >>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >>>>><m9vtbidjnfs514s4s26nhj59m1ojp8q2m1@4ax.com>: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/40slcbgbngggdcwwt95vi/Relay_Drivers.jpg?rlkey=gfai2trx0n6bnja2yl4hber7i&raw=1 >>>>>> >>>>>>I like C1, with just a high-enough-voltage mosfet that it survives the >>>>>>max flyback voltage. >>>>>> >>>>>>C2 would use some exotic avalanche-rated thing. >>>>>> >>>>>>Everthing else needs more parts. >>>>>> >>>>>>Any more? >>>>> >>>>>I would use A to be safe, pevents RF oscillations and delivers power back into the supply ;-) >>>> >>>>That's no fun. Everybody does that. >>>> >>>>The stored energy is dissipated in the diode and the coil resistance. >>> >>>You could use it to make some high voltage rail on the flyback if the relays work often enough... :-) >>>As to no fun: No lack of RF noise is important (you may need to pass some standards perhaps). >>>Driving on the right side of the road may seem dull but it is safer. >>>The diode thing has worked OK in millions of equipment for as long as there have been relay drivers. >> >>Adding 120+ diodes might cost another PCB layer. > >You have 120 relays on one board???Yes. Brickwalled. And we need to get a lot of very fat traces deep into the array. If I add the 48 polyfuses, so the customer doesn't fry my traces, there's even less room. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/x8ily46c4igji6tlkjnrg/P948_polyfuses_5.jpg?rlkey=fot52eisaxq9g8l0hbmbt2gsc&raw=1 The mosfet relay drivers can go on the bottom, between the thru-hole relay pins, but will block traces. Diodes would block more. My customer designed a box to do this function, many years ago, back when aerospace companies designed their own test gear. Nowadays, the old engineers and techs retire and aren't replaced, and they can't build or maintain their stuff any more. This is our version.
Reply by ●July 27, 20232023-07-27
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 12:28:30 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:>On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:43:38 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >wrote: > >>On a sunny day (Wed, 26 Jul 2023 06:42:07 -0700) it happened John Larkin >><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >><vh82ci91224q6qmmj9bcs2uuu4dsb24ago@4ax.com>: >> >>>On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 05:03:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Jul 2023 09:01:31 -0700) it happened John Larkin >>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >>>><hcsvbi5qh32b4fm3go7mlkitktphr2qr8c@4ax.com>: >>>> >>>>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 05:20:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Jul 2023 15:41:16 -0700) it happened John Larkin >>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >>>>>><m9vtbidjnfs514s4s26nhj59m1ojp8q2m1@4ax.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/40slcbgbngggdcwwt95vi/Relay_Drivers.jpg?rlkey=gfai2trx0n6bnja2yl4hber7i&raw=1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I like C1, with just a high-enough-voltage mosfet that it survives the >>>>>>>max flyback voltage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>C2 would use some exotic avalanche-rated thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Everthing else needs more parts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Any more? >>>>>> >>>>>>I would use A to be safe, pevents RF oscillations and delivers power back into the supply ;-) >>>>> >>>>>That's no fun. Everybody does that. >>>>> >>>>>The stored energy is dissipated in the diode and the coil resistance. >>>> >>>>You could use it to make some high voltage rail on the flyback if the relays work often enough... :-) >>>>As to no fun: No lack of RF noise is important (you may need to pass some standards perhaps). >>>>Driving on the right side of the road may seem dull but it is safer. >>>>The diode thing has worked OK in millions of equipment for as long as there have been relay drivers. >>> >>>Adding 120+ diodes might cost another PCB layer. >> >>You have 120 relays on one board??? > >Yes. Brickwalled. And we need to get a lot of very fat traces deep >into the array. > >If I add the 48 polyfuses, so the customer doesn't fry my traces, >there's even less room. > >https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/x8ily46c4igji6tlkjnrg/P948_polyfuses_5.jpg?rlkey=fot52eisaxq9g8l0hbmbt2gsc&raw=1 > >The mosfet relay drivers can go on the bottom, between the thru-hole >relay pins, but will block traces. Diodes would block more. > >My customer designed a box to do this function, many years ago, back >when aerospace companies designed their own test gear. Nowadays, the >old engineers and techs retire and aren't replaced, and they can't >build or maintain their stuff any more. This is our version.Looks great ! BUT I hope that those are Through-Hole and not SMT in case you need to change one. boB
Reply by ●July 27, 20232023-07-27
torsdag den 27. juli 2023 kl. 05.10.38 UTC+2 skrev boB:> On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 12:28:30 -0700, John Larkin > <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote: > > >On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:43:38 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> > >wrote: > > > >>On a sunny day (Wed, 26 Jul 2023 06:42:07 -0700) it happened John Larkin > >><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in > >><vh82ci91224q6qmmj...@4ax.com>: > >> > >>>On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 05:03:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> > >>>wrote: > >>> > >>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Jul 2023 09:01:31 -0700) it happened John Larkin > >>>><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in > >>>><hcsvbi5qh32b4fm3g...@4ax.com>: > >>>> > >>>>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 05:20:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> > >>>>>wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Jul 2023 15:41:16 -0700) it happened John Larkin > >>>>>><jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in > >>>>>><m9vtbidjnfs514s4s...@4ax.com>: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/40slcbgbngggdcwwt95vi/Relay_Drivers.jpg?rlkey=gfai2trx0n6bnja2yl4hber7i&raw=1 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>I like C1, with just a high-enough-voltage mosfet that it survives the > >>>>>>>max flyback voltage. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>C2 would use some exotic avalanche-rated thing. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Everthing else needs more parts. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Any more? > >>>>>> > >>>>>>I would use A to be safe, pevents RF oscillations and delivers power back into the supply ;-) > >>>>> > >>>>>That's no fun. Everybody does that. > >>>>> > >>>>>The stored energy is dissipated in the diode and the coil resistance. > >>>> > >>>>You could use it to make some high voltage rail on the flyback if the relays work often enough... :-) > >>>>As to no fun: No lack of RF noise is important (you may need to pass some standards perhaps). > >>>>Driving on the right side of the road may seem dull but it is safer. > >>>>The diode thing has worked OK in millions of equipment for as long as there have been relay drivers. > >>> > >>>Adding 120+ diodes might cost another PCB layer. > >> > >>You have 120 relays on one board??? > > > >Yes. Brickwalled. And we need to get a lot of very fat traces deep > >into the array. > > > >If I add the 48 polyfuses, so the customer doesn't fry my traces, > >there's even less room. > > > >https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/x8ily46c4igji6tlkjnrg/P948_polyfuses_5.jpg?rlkey=fot52eisaxq9g8l0hbmbt2gsc&raw=1 > > > >The mosfet relay drivers can go on the bottom, between the thru-hole > >relay pins, but will block traces. Diodes would block more. > > > >My customer designed a box to do this function, many years ago, back > >when aerospace companies designed their own test gear. Nowadays, the > >old engineers and techs retire and aren't replaced, and they can't > >build or maintain their stuff any more. This is our version. > Looks great ! > > BUT I hope that those are Through-Hole and not SMT in case you need to > change one.SMD would take up quite a bit more space
Reply by ●July 27, 20232023-07-27
On a sunny day (Wed, 26 Jul 2023 12:28:30 -0700) it happened John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in <68s2cihg5o9vsu5lmjj7e3nv0io1u9vf7d@4ax.com>:>On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:43:38 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >wrote: > >>On a sunny day (Wed, 26 Jul 2023 06:42:07 -0700) it happened John Larkin >><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >><vh82ci91224q6qmmj9bcs2uuu4dsb24ago@4ax.com>: >> >>>On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 05:03:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 25 Jul 2023 09:01:31 -0700) it happened John Larkin >>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >>>><hcsvbi5qh32b4fm3go7mlkitktphr2qr8c@4ax.com>: >>>> >>>>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 05:20:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 24 Jul 2023 15:41:16 -0700) it happened John Larkin >>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in >>>>>><m9vtbidjnfs514s4s26nhj59m1ojp8q2m1@4ax.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/40slcbgbngggdcwwt95vi/Relay_Drivers.jpg?rlkey=gfai2trx0n6bnja2yl4hber7i&raw=1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I like C1, with just a high-enough-voltage mosfet that it survives the >>>>>>>max flyback voltage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>C2 would use some exotic avalanche-rated thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Everthing else needs more parts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Any more? >>>>>> >>>>>>I would use A to be safe, pevents RF oscillations and delivers power back into the supply ;-) >>>>> >>>>>That's no fun. Everybody does that. >>>>> >>>>>The stored energy is dissipated in the diode and the coil resistance. >>>> >>>>You could use it to make some high voltage rail on the flyback if the relays work often enough... :-) >>>>As to no fun: No lack of RF noise is important (you may need to pass some standards perhaps). >>>>Driving on the right side of the road may seem dull but it is safer. >>>>The diode thing has worked OK in millions of equipment for as long as there have been relay drivers. >>> >>>Adding 120+ diodes might cost another PCB layer. >> >>You have 120 relays on one board??? > >Yes. Brickwalled. And we need to get a lot of very fat traces deep >into the array. > >If I add the 48 polyfuses, so the customer doesn't fry my traces, >there's even less room. > >https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/x8ily46c4igji6tlkjnrg/P948_polyfuses_5.jpg?rlkey=fot52eisaxq9g8l0hbmbt2gsc&raw=1Impressive!>The mosfet relay drivers can go on the bottom, between the thru-hole >relay pins, but will block traces. Diodes would block more. > >My customer designed a box to do this function, many years ago, back >when aerospace companies designed their own test gear. Nowadays, the >old engineers and techs retire and aren't replaced, and they can't >build or maintain their stuff any more. This is our version.What about relay wear out, is it possible to replace one?
