Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote: >> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman >> wrote: >>> On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote: >>>> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything >>>> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. The narrator >>>> claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. >>>> It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the >>>> first computer? >>> It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type >>> of computer?! >>> >>> It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps >>> most would use the term - was Colossus: >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer> >> As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about. >> >> "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is >> how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program >> computer, being programmed by switches and plugs. >> >> Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another >> branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding >> targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a >> computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I >> can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and >> used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not. > > The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized > bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady > and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making > the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought > anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there > would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude > drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at > least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and > money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron.The pre-war doctrine was that B17s in combat box formation were self-defending, and so could be used for daylight precision bombing. 'T'weren't so, but it wasn't the Sperry or Norden folks' fault. The Sperry in particular was a beautiful piece of kit for its day. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
First Computer
Started by ●January 24, 2023
Reply by ●January 24, 20232023-01-24
Reply by ●January 24, 20232023-01-24
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:24:38 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:> Jeff Layman wrote: > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote: > >> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything > >> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. > >> The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS > >> Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as > >> the first computer? > > > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of > > computer?! > > > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most > > would use the term - was Colossus: > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer> > > > Gunlaying analog computers go back to WW1. One of the reasons that the > Battle of Jutland was a more even affair than expected was that more of > the German ships had director gun laying than the British.Excuses, excuses. All the German ships were outfitted with multiple high resolution coincident image optical range finders. Only a few of the British ships had them. The Germans also used a technique called the "ladder" which was a method of firing a salvo of slightly offset projectiles to get a bracket on the target before they let loose the death blow. The British had never seen that before and started using it themselves later in the war.> > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs > > -- > Dr Philip C D Hobbs > Principal Consultant > ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics > Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics > Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 > > http://electrooptical.net > http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●January 24, 20232023-01-24
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:27 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:> Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote: > >> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman > >> wrote: > >>> On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote: > >>>> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything > >>>> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. The narrator > >>>> claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. > >>>> It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the > >>>> first computer? > >>> It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type > >>> of computer?! > >>> > >>> It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps > >>> most would use the term - was Colossus: > >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer> > >> As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about. > >> > >> "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is > >> how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program > >> computer, being programmed by switches and plugs. > >> > >> Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another > >> branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding > >> targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a > >> computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I > >> can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and > >> used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not. > > > > The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized > > bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady > > and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making > > the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought > > anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there > > would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude > > drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at > > least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and > > money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron. > The pre-war doctrine was that B17s in combat box formation were > self-defending, and so could be used for daylight precision bombing. > > 'T'weren't so, but it wasn't the Sperry or Norden folks' fault. The > Sperry in particular was a beautiful piece of kit for its day.That has nothing to do with the horrendously poor accuracy of the bombsight even under ideal conditions. They were lucky to get within miles of the target. They used the bombsight for the A-bomb drops, and both were off target by 2-3 miles. The CEP for raids over Europe was something like 10 miles. The AA guns shot down more bombers than fighters IIRC.> Cheers > > Phil Hobbs > > > -- > Dr Philip C D Hobbs > Principal Consultant > ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics > Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics > Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 > > http://electrooptical.net > http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●January 24, 20232023-01-24
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:42:40 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman wrote: > > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote: > > > > I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. > > > > The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer? > > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of > > > computer?! > > > > > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most > > > would use the term - was Colossus: > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer> > > As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about. > > > > "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program computer, being programmed by switches and plugs. > > > > Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not. > The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron.Yes, and it takes one to know one. God, you are such a downer. They won the f**king war. Why don't you use technology from the time and design one better. -- Rick C. + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●January 24, 20232023-01-24
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:59:34 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:24:38 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote: > > Jeff Layman wrote: > > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote: > > >> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything > > >> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. > > >> The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS > > >> Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as > > >> the first computer? > > > > > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of > > > computer?! > > > > > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most > > > would use the term - was Colossus: > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer> > > > > > Gunlaying analog computers go back to WW1. One of the reasons that the > > Battle of Jutland was a more even affair than expected was that more of > > the German ships had director gun laying than the British. > Excuses, excuses. All the German ships were outfitted with multiple high resolution coincident image optical range finders. Only a few of the British ships had them.What's the saying? Don't bring an optical range finder to a RADAR fight. -- Rick C. -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●January 24, 20232023-01-24
On 25/01/23 02:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:> Is there such a thing as the first computer?Not sure that single-purpose things like gun-laying or Colossus qualified. The Egyptians must have had devices for computing geometry, too. I think "computer" should be reserved for things that are equivalent to a Universal Turing Machine. That rules out Colossus.
Reply by ●January 24, 20232023-01-24
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:32:15 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:59:34 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:24:38 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote: > > > Jeff Layman wrote: > > > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote: > > > >> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything > > > >> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. > > > >> The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS > > > >> Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as > > > >> the first computer? > > > > > > > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of > > > > computer?! > > > > > > > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most > > > > would use the term - was Colossus: > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer> > > > > > > > Gunlaying analog computers go back to WW1. One of the reasons that the > > > Battle of Jutland was a more even affair than expected was that more of > > > the German ships had director gun laying than the British. > > Excuses, excuses. All the German ships were outfitted with multiple high resolution coincident image optical range finders. Only a few of the British ships had them. > What's the saying? Don't bring an optical range finder to a RADAR fight.The earliest radars used on ships, actually at the very end of the 19th century, were used for collision avoidance in congested harbor settings. AFAIK there were no naval radars in ww1. The primary motivation for militaries to develop later radars was to detect air targets.> > -- > > Rick C. > > -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●January 24, 20232023-01-24
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:30:30 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:42:40 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote: > > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman wrote: > > > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote: > > > > > I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. > > > > > The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer? > > > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of > > > > computer?! > > > > > > > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most > > > > would use the term - was Colossus: > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer> > > > As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about. > > > > > > "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program computer, being programmed by switches and plugs. > > > > > > Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not. > > The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron. > Yes, and it takes one to know one. God, you are such a downer. They won the f**king war. Why don't you use technology from the time and design one better.There was a synthetic aperture radar navigation-/bomb-sight in development at the time, and demonstration prototypes were fitted into test bombers, but it never received the attention it needed to be made into something operational during war.> > -- > > Rick C. > > + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●January 24, 20232023-01-24
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 21:56:10 UTC, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:30:30 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:42:40 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman wrote: > > > > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote: > > > > > > I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. > > > > > > The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer? > > > > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of > > > > > computer?! > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most > > > > > would use the term - was Colossus: > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer> > > > > As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about. > > > > > > > > "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program computer, being programmed by switches and plugs. > > > > > > > > Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not. > > > The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron. > > Yes, and it takes one to know one. God, you are such a downer. They won the f**king war. Why don't you use technology from the time and design one better. > There was a synthetic aperture radar navigation-/bomb-sight in development at the time, and demonstration prototypes were fitted into test bombers, but it never received the attention it needed to be made into something operational during war.I do remember seeing a radar synthetic aperture airborne computer on the bench when I visited RSRE, Malvern in the late 1970s. What was striking about it was the relatively small size along with the hose connectors for the cooling water. John
Reply by ●January 24, 20232023-01-24
On January 24, bitrex wrote:> In WW2 there were electromechanical gun laying computers, the analog > computer could continually integrate the position from radar data to get > a target's velocity vector, and along with the range compute an > appropriate gun super elevation. > Here's a video series that shows how they worked, the mechanical > ball-integrator was an ingenious contraption: > <https://youtu.be/lr1uK24SND8>I recall reading about submarine warfare in the Pacific. The boat had a gizmo, the "is was", which somehow computed the aim of the torpedo barrel. "the triangle of sub tactics" The captain read the target's co-ordinates, through the periscope. Presumably the speed was simply dx/dt, probably timed with a wrist watch. Unclear how they estimated its range. -- Rich
