TIA/EIA 568 A vs. B

On Saturday, 5 November 2022 at 10:44:41 UTC, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/5/2022 2:15 AM, John Walliker wrote: 
> 
> > High-frequency attenuation is 
> > also better on the higher-numbered types which typically use slightly thicker wire.
> That's an understatement! Running CAT6 is tedious compared to CAT5. 
> It's far less flexible and has a larger bend radius. 
> 
> It's the modern day equivalent of orange hose, in that sense! :-/

I meant that the copper conductors are normally slightly thicker. CAT6 and 6A seem
to use 23AWG whereas CAT5e often uses 24AWG.  I agree that the overall cable
diameter is much greater, especially for those variants with the cross-shaped spacer
which is a real pain.
My own preference is to use either CAT5e or if higher performance is needed a CAT6A
variant with shielding on each pair but no cross-shaped spacer or overall shield.  That gives
the minimum stiffness while getting good performance for 10Gbit/s ethernet.

The thing to avoid at all costs is copper clad aluminium which has higher dc resistance
which is bad for PoE, can corrode much faster in humid environments and is more likely
to break when it is being terminated.

John

On 11/5/2022 4:40 AM, John Walliker wrote:
> On Saturday, 5 November 2022 at 10:44:41 UTC, Don Y wrote:
>> On 11/5/2022 2:15 AM, John Walliker wrote:
>>
>>> High-frequency attenuation is
>>> also better on the higher-numbered types which typically use slightly thicker wire.
>> That's an understatement! Running CAT6 is tedious compared to CAT5.
>> It's far less flexible and has a larger bend radius.
>>
>> It's the modern day equivalent of orange hose, in that sense! :-/
> 
> I meant that the copper conductors are normally slightly thicker. CAT6 and 6A seem
> to use 23AWG whereas CAT5e often uses 24AWG.  I agree that the overall cable
> diameter is much greater, especially for those variants with the cross-shaped spacer
> which is a real pain.

Yup.  It is a "surprise" when you are used to CAT5!

> My own preference is to use either CAT5e or if higher performance is needed a CAT6A
> variant with shielding on each pair but no cross-shaped spacer or overall shield.  That gives
> the minimum stiffness while getting good performance for 10Gbit/s ethernet.

I use CAT5 everywhere and don't expect anything faster then Gbe.
That's fast enough for video or a 10K disk, sustained.

Sometimes optical drops to connect, e.g., a SAN to a server.
Or, multiple ethernet drops, aggregated.

> The thing to avoid at all costs is copper clad aluminium which has higher dc resistance
> which is bad for PoE, can corrode much faster in humid environments and is more likely
> to break when it is being terminated.

I find CAT6 really hard to terminate inside a Jbox due to the larger
bend radius.  Almost as bad as RG6 in that regard.

On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 18:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

>I was looking up the wiring diagrams for Ethernet cables and found TIA/EIA 568A and TIA/EIA 568B wiring diagrams.  They seem to be wired the same, but for the colors used.  They swap green and orange.  At first I thought I was looking at a crossover cable, but no, they clearly say they should be connected the same at each end.  One uses orange and green pairs, while the other uses green and orange pairs for half the signals. 
>
>This reminds me of the Star Trek episode where the Black/White guy was fighting the White/Black guy.  
>
>Anyone know what's going on with TIA/EIA 568 A vs. B? 

Well, one can always read the cited standard:

.<http://www.ense.be/PDF/2030.pdf>

.<https://innovave.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/tia-569-c.pdf>

And so on.  It appears that the A, B, and now C is simply a revision.

Joe Gwinn

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 6:42:11 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/4/2022 11:24 PM, whit3rd wrote: 
> > All 'normal' patch cables are 568B, so that's the only spec I'd ever want to use.
> +42 
> 
> You also want to be sure to be buying connector terminations that carry the 
> matching color code, lest folks get even MORE confused.

Confused about what???  The color of the wires in the cable are totally irrelevant to anything done using cables with RJ-45 connectors on each end.  What is important is that the cable be straight through if that's what you need, or crossover, if that's what you need.  I will never see the colors in the cables. 


> > POE, I'm not sure of.
> When power is delivered over the data pairs (Orange/Green), polarity is 
> important. So, you want to know whether you've adopted 568A or B. 
> Unless you are always probing an 8P8C by pin number (and never actual 
> conductors). 

Again, the only difference is the color of the wires in the cables.  You can use either type of cable and they are identically the same unless you cut one open and look at the colors. 


> The "spare pairs" (Blue/Brown) feed diode bridges so don't really care about 
> polarity (unless you're a stickler for standards). 
> 
> But, 8P8C's are shit connectors. Even shrouded, the damn latches seem 
> to find a way to snap off ("plastic fatigue"?) 

Who cares?  The vast majority of my uses are static.  It was plugged in five years ago and is still working.  Or in this case, the 6 inch cable will be plugged and unplugged once a day.  Being so short, there's little chance of a tangle which is how the latches get damaged. 


> And, its too easy to encounter something with an 8P8C (or 4P4C, 6P6C) that 
> will mechanically mate yet "misbehave" electrically (to the detriment of 
> one or the other halves of the mated circuit -- witness the pains 
> PoE goes to to safeguard against a *phone* being plugged into an 8P8C 
> PoE drop!)

Again,, not a concern, since this will only be used by the technicians who have been instructed in the operation of the unit.  No phone jacks in the lab anyway. 

-- 

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 11:23:03 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 18:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Ricky 
> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> >I was looking up the wiring diagrams for Ethernet cables and found TIA/EIA 568A and TIA/EIA 568B wiring diagrams. They seem to be wired the same, but for the colors used. They swap green and orange. At first I thought I was looking at a crossover cable, but no, they clearly say they should be connected the same at each end. One uses orange and green pairs, while the other uses green and orange pairs for half the signals. 
> > 
> >This reminds me of the Star Trek episode where the Black/White guy was fighting the White/Black guy. 
> > 
> >Anyone know what's going on with TIA/EIA 568 A vs. B?
> Well, one can always read the cited standard: 
> 
> .<http://www.ense.be/PDF/2030.pdf> 
> 
> .<https://innovave.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/tia-569-c.pdf> 
> 
> And so on. It appears that the A, B, and now C is simply a revision. 

Are you confusing 569 with 568? 

-- 

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 11/5/2022 5:28 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/5/2022 4:40 AM, John Walliker wrote:
>> On Saturday, 5 November 2022 at 10:44:41 UTC, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 11/5/2022 2:15 AM, John Walliker wrote:
>>>
>>>> High-frequency attenuation is
>>>> also better on the higher-numbered types which typically use slightly 
>>>> thicker wire.
>>> That's an understatement! Running CAT6 is tedious compared to CAT5.
>>> It's far less flexible and has a larger bend radius.
>>>
>>> It's the modern day equivalent of orange hose, in that sense! :-/
>>
>> I meant that the copper conductors are normally slightly thicker. CAT6 and 6A 
>> seem
>> to use 23AWG whereas CAT5e often uses 24AWG.  I agree that the overall cable
>> diameter is much greater, especially for those variants with the cross-shaped 
>> spacer
>> which is a real pain.
> 
> Yup.  It is a "surprise" when you are used to CAT5!

And you usually need different connector terminations for CAT6;
the ones I've seen have longer (deeper) keystones to accommodate the
stiffer wire.  I've not explored whether or not a different
tool is required for installation.  CAT5 is relatively easy to
terminate (without untwisting long lengths) to these and
clamp in place.

As an aside, note that most keystones are color coded for 568B
(though some have dual color-coding -- which just makes it more
confusing on such a tiny surface).  Patch panels often have both
color codes (more space to annotate them) but I've seen many where
the punchdowns bore the coloring (as if painted on) so effectively
only 568B.

[When I wired the house (~10 years ago), ANSI was recommending
568A for USOC compatibility.  I opted for 568B as I think of the
fabric as data-oriented instead of "comms".  Hopefully, the strict
adherence to the color coding on the keystones and panel punchdowns
will make it easy for future service folks to sort out what was done.
If "wire was just wire", this wouldn't be necessary.]

On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 11:23:03 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 18:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Ricky 
>> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> >I was looking up the wiring diagrams for Ethernet cables and found TIA/EIA 568A and TIA/EIA 568B wiring diagrams. They seem to be wired the same, but for the colors used. They swap green and orange. At first I thought I was looking at a crossover cable, but no, they clearly say they should be connected the same at each end. One uses orange and green pairs, while the other uses green and orange pairs for half the signals. 
>> > 
>> >This reminds me of the Star Trek episode where the Black/White guy was fighting the White/Black guy. 
>> > 
>> >Anyone know what's going on with TIA/EIA 568 A vs. B?
>> Well, one can always read the cited standard: 
>> 
>> .<http://www.ense.be/PDF/2030.pdf> 
>> 
>> .<https://innovave.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/tia-569-c.pdf> 
>> 
>> And so on. It appears that the A, B, and now C is simply a revision. 
>
>Are you confusing 569 with 568? 

Ahh, yes.  But the A, B, C pattern endures.  

Anyway:

.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI/TIA-568>

.<https://www.csd.uoc.gr/~hy435/material/TIA-EIA-568-B.2.pdf>

.<http://innovave.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/TIA-568-C.0.pdf>


Joe Gwinn

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:10:20 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 11:23:03 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote: 
> >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 18:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Ricky 
> >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> 
> >> >I was looking up the wiring diagrams for Ethernet cables and found TIA/EIA 568A and TIA/EIA 568B wiring diagrams. They seem to be wired the same, but for the colors used. They swap green and orange. At first I thought I was looking at a crossover cable, but no, they clearly say they should be connected the same at each end. One uses orange and green pairs, while the other uses green and orange pairs for half the signals. 
> >> > 
> >> >This reminds me of the Star Trek episode where the Black/White guy was fighting the White/Black guy. 
> >> > 
> >> >Anyone know what's going on with TIA/EIA 568 A vs. B? 
> >> Well, one can always read the cited standard: 
> >> 
> >> .<http://www.ense.be/PDF/2030.pdf> 
> >> 
> >> .<https://innovave.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/tia-569-c.pdf> 
> >> 
> >> And so on. It appears that the A, B, and now C is simply a revision. 
> > 
> >Are you confusing 569 with 568?
> Ahh, yes. But the A, B, C pattern endures. 
> 
> Anyway: 
> 
> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI/TIA-568> 
> 
> .<https://www.csd.uoc.gr/~hy435/material/TIA-EIA-568-B.2.pdf> 
> 
> .<http://innovave.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/TIA-568-C.0.pdf> 

You are confusing specification revisions indicator letters, with "pin and pair assignments" known as T568A and T568B.  They have nothing to do with one another.  The two pin/pair assignments (T568A and T568B) have to do with where circuit pairs 2 and 3 are on the connector.  T568A and T568B reverse them.  But this is only a matter of wire color inside the cable, so it has zero affect on the electrical performance.  If you aren't making the cables, you have no need to know, or care about those colors. 

Search your documents for T568A and T568B.  Also, the spec would appear to be up to D, according to Wikipedia.  It would seem TIA-568-B is very different from T568B. 

-- 

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 13:10:45 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:10:20 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
>> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 11:23:03 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote: 
>> >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 18:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Ricky 
>> >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> >> 
>> >> >I was looking up the wiring diagrams for Ethernet cables and found TIA/EIA 568A and TIA/EIA 568B wiring diagrams. They seem to be wired the same, but for the colors used. They swap green and orange. At first I thought I was looking at a crossover cable, but no, they clearly say they should be connected the same at each end. One uses orange and green pairs, while the other uses green and orange pairs for half the signals. 
>> >> > 
>> >> >This reminds me of the Star Trek episode where the Black/White guy was fighting the White/Black guy. 
>> >> > 
>> >> >Anyone know what's going on with TIA/EIA 568 A vs. B? 
>> >> Well, one can always read the cited standard: 
>> >> 
>> >> .<http://www.ense.be/PDF/2030.pdf> 
>> >> 
>> >> .<https://innovave.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/tia-569-c.pdf> 
>> >> 
>> >> And so on. It appears that the A, B, and now C is simply a revision. 
>> > 
>> >Are you confusing 569 with 568?
>> Ahh, yes. But the A, B, C pattern endures. 
>> 
>> Anyway: 
>> 
>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI/TIA-568> 
>> 
>> .<https://www.csd.uoc.gr/~hy435/material/TIA-EIA-568-B.2.pdf> 
>> 
>> .<http://innovave.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/TIA-568-C.0.pdf> 
>
>You are confusing specification revisions indicator letters, with "pin and pair assignments" known as T568A and T568B.  They have nothing to do with one another.  The two pin/pair assignments (T568A and T568B) have to do with where circuit pairs 2 and 3 are on the connector.  T568A and T568B reverse them.  But this is only a matter of wire color inside the cable, so it has zero affect on the electrical performance.  If you aren't making the cables, you have no need to know, or care about those colors. 
>
>Search your documents for T568A and T568B.  Also, the spec would appear to be up to D, according to Wikipedia.  It would seem TIA-568-B is very different from T568B. 

I have no idea if that's right or not, but you are on the correct path
to nail this issue down.  Keep us posted.

Joe Gwinn

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 6:28:09 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 13:10:45 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:10:20 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote: 
> >> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT), Ricky 
> >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> 
> >> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 11:23:03 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote: 
> >> >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 18:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Ricky 
> >> >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> >> 
> >> >> >I was looking up the wiring diagrams for Ethernet cables and found TIA/EIA 568A and TIA/EIA 568B wiring diagrams. They seem to be wired the same, but for the colors used. They swap green and orange. At first I thought I was looking at a crossover cable, but no, they clearly say they should be connected the same at each end. One uses orange and green pairs, while the other uses green and orange pairs for half the signals. 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> >This reminds me of the Star Trek episode where the Black/White guy was fighting the White/Black guy. 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> >Anyone know what's going on with TIA/EIA 568 A vs. B? 
> >> >> Well, one can always read the cited standard: 
> >> >> 
> >> >> .<http://www.ense.be/PDF/2030.pdf> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> .<https://innovave.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/tia-569-c.pdf> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> And so on. It appears that the A, B, and now C is simply a revision. 
> >> > 
> >> >Are you confusing 569 with 568? 
> >> Ahh, yes. But the A, B, C pattern endures. 
> >> 
> >> Anyway: 
> >> 
> >> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI/TIA-568> 
> >> 
> >> .<https://www.csd.uoc.gr/~hy435/material/TIA-EIA-568-B.2.pdf> 
> >> 
> >> .<http://innovave.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/TIA-568-C.0.pdf> 
> > 
> >You are confusing specification revisions indicator letters, with "pin and pair assignments" known as T568A and T568B. They have nothing to do with one another. The two pin/pair assignments (T568A and T568B) have to do with where circuit pairs 2 and 3 are on the connector. T568A and T568B reverse them. But this is only a matter of wire color inside the cable, so it has zero affect on the electrical performance. If you aren't making the cables, you have no need to know, or care about those colors. 
> > 
> >Search your documents for T568A and T568B. Also, the spec would appear to be up to D, according to Wikipedia. It would seem TIA-568-B is very different from T568B.
> I have no idea if that's right or not, but you are on the correct path 
> to nail this issue down. Keep us posted. 

It's in the documents you provided.  So it's done.  You are officially posted.  ;)

-- 

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209