On 1/8/2022 21:17, legg wrote:> On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 08:56:33 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen > <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: > >> lørdag den 8. januar 2022 kl. 16.33.18 UTC+1 skrev legg: >>> On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 14:18:24 +0100, Jeroen Belleman >>> <jer...@nospam.please> wrote: >>> >>>> For years, interaction with the internet worked through a >>>> universal browser. Lately, every service, gadget or whatnot >>>> wants you to download their special-purpose app. Why?? >>>> What's the deal? It seems like a huge step backwards to me. >>>> >>>> Jeroen Belleman >>> Have been trying to get an Android OS running on a PC, >>> just in order to communicate with hardware using a >>> bluetooth link - which is what mfr app provides. >>> >>> Android cannot recognize, access or use most of >>> PC hardware, to do this. Complete flop. >>> >>> Android not ready for anything other than use as toy. >> >> there are 3 billion active Android devices ... >> > > The option of buying an android tablet and setting it > up to run the app seems the only current alternative. > > Why? because Google doesn't want to do the work of > creating a real OS. Revenue from toys id apparently > enough. > > RLIt is not just a matter of wanting. Once you are deeply involved with and OS - as they are with linux, android is just a colourful packaging for it - it is just about impossible to move away.
Why apps?
Started by ●January 8, 2022
Reply by ●January 8, 20222022-01-08
Reply by ●January 8, 20222022-01-08
08.01.22 14:18, Jeroen Belleman wrote:>For years, interaction with the internet worked through a >universal browser. Lately, every service, gadget or whatnot >wants you to download their special-purpose app. Why?? >What's the deal? It seems like a huge step backwards to me. > >An app is a lot more responsive and not dependent on an internet connection Also, browsers are not created equal and take up resources (just look up how much RAM is used on a desktop browser) -- Klaus
Reply by ●January 8, 20222022-01-08
On a sunny day (Sat, 08 Jan 2022 14:18:24 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <src2v1$a58$1@gioia.aioe.org>:>For years, interaction with the internet worked through a >universal browser. Lately, every service, gadget or whatnot >wants you to download their special-purpose app. Why?? >What's the deal? It seems like a huge step backwards to me. > >Jeroen BellemanThe governments want more and more control where you are, who you talk to, what you do, what you say and your opinion is. Phones and apps give it to them, for people there is no way to see what code is in those apps. crypto currencies now also in China on your phone. Access ... QR codes... Now wait till you get chipped, like your pet dog. It is dark times and it must end Once the nukes fly and the big EMP silences all phones then freedom surfaces again If there will be anyone left to feel free is of course a valid question. But wildlife at Tjernobyl thrives. I have my smartest phone in airplane mode... There was a lot to do about Israeli spy software used by many countries that could even start the phone's camera and watch you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware) Of course they monitor you anyways.... I feel better on my laptop, wrote most relevant clients email, irc, usenet, what not, and have the internet monitoring tools. And I do not want to let go of my real keyboard, those rubbing screens do not do it for me. I do have a real gasmask for when I have to go demonstrate. :-) Seems you need a bullet proof vest and anti dog spray too these days here, ... everything censored.. I have no facebook account, do have a twitter one, no idea if it still works, never use it. Seriously think about leaving youtube, already moved to posting stuff on my own website.>bitrexNo, www will not go away, wikipedia is cool, there are a zillion sites with a zillion very interesting projects. A much bigger danger is the greens, kids grown up with Al Gore's polar bear crap now have power and shutdown nuclear - and oil based power plants, have no clue about electrickety or anything else as far as I can see and soon will force people to live in grass huts again.
Reply by ●January 8, 20222022-01-08
On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 21:34:08 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote:>On 1/8/2022 21:17, legg wrote: >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 08:56:33 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen >> <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: >> >>> l�rdag den 8. januar 2022 kl. 16.33.18 UTC+1 skrev legg: >>>> On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 14:18:24 +0100, Jeroen Belleman >>>> <jer...@nospam.please> wrote: >>>> >>>>> For years, interaction with the internet worked through a >>>>> universal browser. Lately, every service, gadget or whatnot >>>>> wants you to download their special-purpose app. Why?? >>>>> What's the deal? It seems like a huge step backwards to me. >>>>> >>>>> Jeroen Belleman >>>> Have been trying to get an Android OS running on a PC, >>>> just in order to communicate with hardware using a >>>> bluetooth link - which is what mfr app provides. >>>> >>>> Android cannot recognize, access or use most of >>>> PC hardware, to do this. Complete flop. >>>> >>>> Android not ready for anything other than use as toy. >>> >>> there are 3 billion active Android devices ... >>> >> >> The option of buying an android tablet and setting it >> up to run the app seems the only current alternative. >> >> Why? because Google doesn't want to do the work of >> creating a real OS. Revenue from toys id apparently >> enough. >> >> RL > >It is not just a matter of wanting. Once you are deeply involved >with and OS - as they are with linux, android is just a colourful >packaging for it - it is just about impossible to move away.So why don't 'other' linux distros run android apps? RL
Reply by ●January 8, 20222022-01-08
On 1/8/2022 6:18 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:> For years, interaction with the internet worked through a > universal browser.... to a first-order approximation. Note that every browser has always had browser-specific extensions which "colored" the UX. And, that's not to mention the presence of evolving standards. Javascript began the trend away from the browser as a "dumb terminal". Apps just continue that trend.> Lately, every service, gadget or whatnot > wants you to download their special-purpose app. Why??An app is a lot more responsive than a round-trip to the server. An app doesn't *need* to rely on the accessibility/availability of the server. An app can more actively target the actual hardware that is supporting it. An app has greater control over how things are cached. An app can access bits of your device that a browser's sandbox prevents. "Branding" Browser interfaces have to tolerate a wider variety of devices (a user can choose to visit your site from a desktop PC *or* a tiny phone). This affects the output and input modalities that are effective. An app can constrain/expand on those. Browsers tend to be pigs -- because they have to support all sorts of extensions, etc. One *advantage* (from the user's PoV) of an app is that it can allow you to preserve a particular UI/UX without being at the mercy of the latest version of served pages (assuming the vendor allows this backwards compatibility). One downside with all web-based services is that you're never sure what you're going to be facing when you connect *now* (vs. 2 days *or* 10 minutes ago!). It's the epitome of forced updates (annoying when one of your PC apps "changes" due to an upgrade -- esp if you can't refuse the upgrade; web services don't even warn you that there is/was an upgrade!)> What's the deal? It seems like a huge step backwards to me.It's hard to design in a "generic" environment. Esp if you want to put your own spin on the UX. Layer your own UI on the target OS and develop for that, instead. (Why don't desktop developers design apps to run directly on the X intrinsics?)
Reply by ●January 8, 20222022-01-08
On 1/8/2022 11:52 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:> On 2022-01-08 19:00, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: >> lørdag den 8. januar 2022 kl. 18.37.19 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs: >>> Jeroen Belleman wrote: >>>> For years, interaction with the internet worked through a >>>> universal browser. Lately, every service, gadget or whatnot >>>> wants you to download their special-purpose app. Why?? >>>> What's the deal? It seems like a huge step backwards to me. >>>> >>>> Jeroen Belleman >>> The way they ask for ridiculously broad permissions should be a clue. >> >> I think sometimes it is just lazy developers that doesn't bother picking what >> they actually need >> >>> "Why does Walmart need access to my camera, phone, and messages?" >>> >>> One guess. >> >> if it scans barcodes it need access to the camera, it might need access to >> messages >> to read a message with something like a discount coupon >> > > You can trust them to purposely invent ways to make the broad > permissions seem legitimate, so that they can better spy on you as > a result.It is amusing that no one has developed a sandbox that you can interpose between any/every app and your actual resources. This would allow the user to see *which* resources are ACTUALLY being accessed as well as allowing you to "dummy up" some bogus resources to appease/confuse the app. "Yeah, my address book has just one contact in it -- and that happens to be the email address of the app's CEO! Please feel free to spam him." (of course, the next app has the email of THAT app's CEO in its place) I.e. turn every phone into a honeypot. But, sheeple aren't concerned with these issues. If you bring them (or "privacy", in general) to their attention, they will shrug and say "they have nothing to hide" or "no one would be interested in (pwning) me". Of course, when they get *bit*, they'll never think that it was their behavior that facilitated that! Even without letting an app peek into your "other stuff", it already discloses enough about you as soon as you turn it on (Yes, the visitor checking out at kiosk #23 is now identified -- from his charge card -- as John Doe. Prior to reaching the checkout, he visited the following departments, lingering at the following displays for these periods of time. We can now correlate length of time at a particular display with probability of making a purchase of those displayed items...) (Yes, the browser with fingerprint 0xFEEDABE was seen visiting this other site just a few minutes ago. We've seen this pattern, before, so we know to serve up THIS version of the web page to better hook them into a purchase than a cold visitor)
Reply by ●January 8, 20222022-01-08
On 9/1/22 5:52 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:> On 2022-01-08 19:00, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: >> lørdag den 8. januar 2022 kl. 18.37.19 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs: >>> Jeroen Belleman wrote: >>>> For years, interaction with the internet worked through a >>>> universal browser. Lately, every service, gadget or whatnot >>>> wants you to download their special-purpose app. Why?? >>>> What's the deal? It seems like a huge step backwards to me. >>>> >>>> Jeroen Belleman >>> The way they ask for ridiculously broad permissions should be a clue. >> >> I think sometimes it is just lazy developers that doesn't bother >> picking what they actually need >> >>> "Why does Walmart need access to my camera, phone, and messages?" >>> >>> One guess. >> >> if it scans barcodes it need access to the camera, it might need >> access to messages >> to read a message with something like a discount coupon >> > > You can trust them to purposely invent ways to make the broad > permissions seem legitimate, so that they can better spy on you as > a result.Apps can run continuously in the background too, they don't wait for you to visit the web page.
Reply by ●January 8, 20222022-01-08
On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 14:18:24 +0100, Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:>For years, interaction with the internet worked through a >universal browser. Lately, every service, gadget or whatnot >wants you to download their special-purpose app. Why?? >What's the deal? It seems like a huge step backwards to me. > >Jeroen BellemanThere's a rhetorical question if ever.
Reply by ●January 9, 20222022-01-09
Don Y wrote:> > It is amusing that no one has developed a sandbox that you can > interpose between any/every app and your actual resources. This > would allow the user to see *which* resources are ACTUALLY being > accessed as well > as allowing you to "dummy up" some bogus resources to appease/confuse > the app. > "Yeah, my address book has just one contact in it -- and that > happens to be the email address of the app's CEO! Please feel > free to spam him." > (of course, the next app has the email of THAT app's CEO in its place) > > I.e. turn every phone into a honeypot.Google's OS and Apple's OS probably wouldn't allow it. If more people had Linux phones it could be done, but they cost around $800 which gives an idea how much Google and Apple make from your phone. -- Defund the Thought Police Andiamo Brandon!
Reply by ●January 9, 20222022-01-09
On 1/8/2022 9:37 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:> Don Y wrote: >> >> It is amusing that no one has developed a sandbox that you can >> interpose between any/every app and your actual resources. This >> would allow the user to see *which* resources are ACTUALLY being >> accessed as well >> as allowing you to "dummy up" some bogus resources to appease/confuse >> the app. >> "Yeah, my address book has just one contact in it -- and that >> happens to be the email address of the app's CEO! Please feel >> free to spam him." >> (of course, the next app has the email of THAT app's CEO in its place) >> >> I.e. turn every phone into a honeypot. > > Google's OS and Apple's OS probably wouldn't allow it. If more people > had Linux phones it could be done, but they cost around $800 which gives > an idea how much Google and Apple make from your phone.Apple may not allow the app to be distributed via their stores (not sure if Google has a similar hold on "installables") but, in theory, such an app could underlay all other apps (if installed first) and *interpret* their code, as the worst case scenario. No idea as to the performance hit as I don't use a cell phone and can't speak to the nature/complexity of the apps hosted thereon (is there a "render 3D model" app? "perform DRC on PCB" app?) I support "applets" in my current design but they are intentionally high-level abstractions that rely on services offered by the underlying system. One could "hook" each of those services and run an applet in a sandbox "at processor speed" with very little effort (that was one of the design goals for the RTOS).
