Translation services/strategies/costs

On 12/24/2021 4:45 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 23/12/2021 10:35, Don Y wrote:
>> On 12/23/2021 2:39 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> 
>>> Alexa can't manage for example Tyne & Wear  (tine and weir), dialect
>>> Chop Gate (chop yat) and Cholmondeley (Chumlee) catch out most non-native 
>>> English speakers in fact most non-locals. For that reason the latter was a 
>>> location for sensitive military intelligence during WWII.
>>
>> Worcester (WUSS-ter), Billerica (bill-RICK-a), Berlin (BURR-lin, not burr-LIN),
>> etc.  Or, words that folks often mispronounce (almond, salmon).
>>
>> I can identify folks who are from my home *town* (not "state"!) by their
>> speech habits -- highly localized.
> 
> I can recognise a fair number of British accents but I have all but lost mine 
> from time spent away from my home town at university and overseas.

*Regional* accents tend to be easy to identify -- New York vs. Boston
vs. West Virginia, etc.

But, in this case, the accent is much more localized -- to a particular
city, not the region containing it.  Add to that, local vocabulary
and speech customs and, for a tuned ear, its a dead giveaway.

I met a guy, here, some 2000+ miles from home.  Within minutes, I
asked him if he was from my home town.  He was stunned at the
unexpectedness of the question.  And, that I was able to pick up
on those subtleties in his speech (he'd lived many other places
in the intervening years).

I had a similar experience when introduced to the CEO's wife at
a cocktail party many decades ago.  He was actually "put out" by
the apparent instant bond I shared with her (and likely wasn't
keen on his wife taking an interest in a "young man"!).

>> A neighbor claimed her firstname to be "Lara" -- though she spelled it
>> L-A-U-R-A ("Isn't that Laura??").
>>
>> [BTW, I'm still waiting for a pointer to the code you want compiled...]
> 
> If you are willing to give it a go I'll email you a copy (about 150k main file 
> plus a couple of tiny header file stubs to satisfy includes).

gzipped tarball?  ZIP/RAR archive?

> I don't seem to have your email contact details. My own peculiar looking 
> reply-to address is valid provided that you do not alter it in any way.

I will make a point of dropping you a line a bit later.  I'm presently
waiting on the last (6th!) cheesecake to come out of the oven.  It's
a rather time critical process to ensure it cools without cracking, etc.

> First time around just throw it at the Intel compiler and send me the error 
> messages (or if by some happenstance it compiles and links OK the output of 
> running it with no parameters - also about 100-200k).

OK.  I will try to plan on doing so over the weekend.  By then, I'll have
cleared all of my XMAS chores (and can start on those remaining for New Years).

> If you have any nice fast series 10 or 11 Intel CPU's I'd be interested in the 
> output from running an MSC 2019 compiled executable on them too. I'm looking 
> for SSE architectural differences affecting out of order and speculative 
> execution (and how they have changed with time).

That's harder.  I'd have to go to the warehouse and see what's
lying around.  And, once there, I'd surely get roped into lending a
hand on something *else* (forklift driver quit so I tend to have
to fill in; and, I'm sure there's lots of stuff backed up that
will need to be moved/reshuffled at this time of year)

> I thought you were tied up until the year end.

I am.  But, I am finding that I can let the machines do much
of the work while I shift my attention to other tasks.
E.g., one doing "make world", another rendering 3D models,
another rendering animations... and, me sitting at this one
pushing files onto the server!  :>

Otherwise, I never would have managed to get *any* of my baking
done.  (Though I still have 250 dozen cookies to bake -- plus
a batch of biscotti for SWMBO.)

And, I've got to remember to make a XMAS card for SWMBO in
the next few hours (I came up with a great idea, for this year!
Sadly, you can't reuse ideas from one year to the next...)

> I know how pressured year end shipment deadlines can be. Good luck!

Well, it's self-imposed so not as intense.  But, getting it done
SOONER is still better than having it linger on the ToDo list.
It looks like I'll get 4 designs released, for sure, by year
end.  The fifth may take a back seat due to the baking requirements
(I got distracted helping a disabled neighbor string XMAS lights
on his property and lost half a work-day).  The sixth I'd previously
resigned myself to leaving until after New Years.

I figure most folks aren't actively *waiting* for this stuff
as they are enduring the holidays, as well!  So, the deadline is
largely symbolic.

> Have a super Christmas!

Ditto.

And I still have to make the cavatelli (though I neglected to pick up
any chestnut flour so they won't be as "special").

And, harvest the lemons (which are probably WAY too sweet, by now!)

Did I mention that I hate the holidays?  (sigh)

On 2021-12-24 20:24, Jan Frank wrote:
> Arie de Muijnck <noreply@ademu.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-12-24 16:24, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> Here in the Netherlands they started teaching French in kindergarten.
>>> Maybe that is why I have few problems with the language when in France.
>>> They did not start with German and English until highschool.
>>
>> Oh, these memories... French started when I was 11, English at 12,
>> German at 13. Had exams in all 4 languages.
>>
>>       Papa fume une pipe.
>>       Maman coupe le pain.
>>       Le soldat sur la mur.
>>            etc...
>>
>> But it still really helps on holydays in France  :-}
>>
>> Arie
>
> I am Canadian and married my wife while I was with NATO in Metz, France.
> Our first child was a boy, and by the time he was 4, he could speak fluent
> French and English. He knew which was which, and never got them confused.
>
> It never ceased to amaze me how quickly children pick up languages.[...]

A myth, incessantly repeated. Adults can pick up a new language in
much less time, provided they are motivated and completely immersed.
It took me, as an adult, less than a year to become fluent in French.

Jeroen Belleman

On 12/24/2021 2:56 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 2021-12-24 20:24, Jan Frank wrote:

>> It never ceased to amaze me how quickly children pick up languages.[...]
> 
> A myth, incessantly repeated. Adults can pick up a new language in
> much less time, provided they are motivated and completely immersed.
> It took me, as an adult, less than a year to become fluent in French.

It's relatively uncommon (in the US) for folks to *need* such
immersion as most folks are willing to converse in English, even if
it is not their native tongue.

But, do you *think* in French?  Or, do you *translate* into French
(in your head)?

Aside from common interactions, I find I have to *consciously*
map English into the language I want to utter (and vice versa).

And, time away from a language causes it (proficiency) to fade,
rather quickly.  (and reading/writing vs. speaking vs. listening)

On 2021-12-24 23:10, Don Y wrote:
> On 12/24/2021 2:56 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>> On 2021-12-24 20:24, Jan Frank wrote:
>
>>> It never ceased to amaze me how quickly children pick up languages.[...]
>>
>> A myth, incessantly repeated. Adults can pick up a new language in
>> much less time, provided they are motivated and completely immersed.
>> It took me, as an adult, less than a year to become fluent in French.
>
> It's relatively uncommon (in the US) for folks to *need* such
> immersion as most folks are willing to converse in English, even if
> it is not their native tongue.
>
> But, do you *think* in French?  Or, do you *translate* into French
> (in your head)?
>
> Aside from common interactions, I find I have to *consciously*
> map English into the language I want to utter (and vice versa).
>
> And, time away from a language causes it (proficiency) to fade,
> rather quickly.  (and reading/writing vs. speaking vs. listening)

I have no need to translate. I really think in the target language,
be it Dutch, English or French. In fact, I find translating accurately
from one to another considerably harder than just expressing myself
in the target language ab initio.

I'm born Dutch, use lots of English professionally and live in
France since 1981. I've had plenty of time to learn. The first
few months were very tiring, is true. It got easier after that.

Jeroen Belleman

On 12/24/2021 3:39 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 2021-12-24 23:10, Don Y wrote:
>> On 12/24/2021 2:56 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-24 20:24, Jan Frank wrote:
>>
>>>> It never ceased to amaze me how quickly children pick up languages.[...]
>>>
>>> A myth, incessantly repeated. Adults can pick up a new language in
>>> much less time, provided they are motivated and completely immersed.
>>> It took me, as an adult, less than a year to become fluent in French.
>>
>> It's relatively uncommon (in the US) for folks to *need* such
>> immersion as most folks are willing to converse in English, even if
>> it is not their native tongue.
>>
>> But, do you *think* in French?  Or, do you *translate* into French
>> (in your head)?
>>
>> Aside from common interactions, I find I have to *consciously*
>> map English into the language I want to utter (and vice versa).
>>
>> And, time away from a language causes it (proficiency) to fade,
>> rather quickly.  (and reading/writing vs. speaking vs. listening)
> 
> I have no need to translate. I really think in the target language,
> be it Dutch, English or French. In fact, I find translating accurately
> from one to another considerably harder than just expressing myself
> in the target language ab initio.

For anything other than "common interchanges", I find myself mentally
pausing as I've translated the *heard* language into english, adjusting
for colloquialisms, etc. formulating my reply, adjusting for idiosyncracies
of the target language and *then* translating into the spoken language.

Part of this is a deficiency in hearing (not a deafness but almost
the equivalent of astigmatism in the ears).  So, I have to *see*
the text that I think I've heard and "read" it, in my mind.  Then,
"write" the reply and, finally, speak it to get the correct sounds.

It's "work".  But, something I rarely have to do, now (as most
of my interactions are in english for the past several decades,
dropping into other languages only occasionally for "pleasantries").

Growing up, it as much easier to slip in and out of other languages
as interactions were more common and unplanned.  But, also, typically
not very "deep" (I'd never try arguing a fine technical point in
anything other than english out of fear my focus on the translation
*process* would lead me to overlook some nuanced meaning)

> I'm born Dutch, use lots of English professionally and live in
> France since 1981. I've had plenty of time to learn. The first
> few months were very tiring, is true. It got easier after that.

You are most likely *very* immersed.  And, would have to *seek* out
dutch speakers in your day-to-day if that was a desire of yours.

Am 24.12.21 um 22:56 schrieb Jeroen Belleman:
> On 2021-12-24 20:24, Jan Frank wrote:
>> Arie de Muijnck <noreply@ademu.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-12-24 16:24, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> Here in the Netherlands they started teaching French in kindergarten.
>>>> Maybe that is why I have few problems with the language when in France.
>>>> They did not start with German and English until highschool.

>> I am Canadian and married my wife while I was with NATO in Metz, France.
>> Our first child was a boy, and by the time he was 4, he could speak 
>> fluent
>> French and English. He knew which was which, and never got them confused.
>>
>> It never ceased to amaze me how quickly children pick up languages.[...]
> 
> A myth, incessantly repeated. Adults can pick up a new language in
> much less time, provided they are motivated and completely immersed.
> It took me, as an adult, less than a year to become fluent in French.
> 
> Jeroen Belleman

I started with Latin, then French and then English.
Really good pupils would have chosen Old-Greek instead of
English. Thanks Goddess I was bad enough.

BTW Metz is 65 Km away from where I live.

But there IS more to it to learn a language as a child.
We once were near Ulm in the valley of the Blau river (to be
somewhat on-topic: that's where the Gauss family still lives)
and we (my Ex and me) met an English-speaking couple; the
conversation was in English. After some 20 min the woman
asked if my SO was Russian. That came to a huge surprise
to me as my SO's English sounded maybe somewhat German to my
ears, not even Saxonian ( which she CAN speak if asked for,
she's from Dresden). Her German is absolutely pure normally.

But she has spent her first 3 years in the "stars town" near
Moscow because her father was there as a kosmonaut-to-be and
she speaks Russian good enough to buy Bolschoi tickets for
non-tourists.

According to a customer of mine who is a Russian-German
medical doctor (you can discuss dielectric resonators with him)
the fine pronounciation is lost unless you learn it as a small
child. There are differences in R and L among others. I cannot
hear that.

And Bodmer in his book "Languages Of The World" writes
clearly: "You want to learn really good Russian? Wait until
your next re-incarnation".

BTW, when in Nepals I tried to learn Nepali, and I had a
language guide with lots of drawings of tigers, flies,
butterflies and such. We used to stay for the night at local
farmers and their kids soon found out about my language guide.
The kids pointed to the butterfly and shouted "putali". These
are the Nepalese words I did never ever forget. Maybe the
children are somehow contagious.

Gerhard

Am 25.12.21 um 00:50 schrieb Gerhard Hoffmann:

> BTW, when in Nepals I tried to learn Nepali, and I had a
> language guide with lots of drawings of tigers, flies,
> butterflies and such. We used to stay for the night at local
> farmers and their kids soon found out about my language guide.
> The kids pointed to the butterfly and shouted "putali". These
> are the Nepalese words I did never ever forget. Maybe the
> children are somehow contagious.

The first guy I tried my Nepali on was a porter.
He understood nothing. Zilch. It later turned out
that he was Tibetan and did not know a single word
of Nepali. That's probably why he was a porter
and not a guide. :-)

Gerhard

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

> On 2021-12-24 20:24, Jan Frank wrote:

[...]

>> I am Canadian and married my wife while I was with NATO in Metz, France.
>> Our first child was a boy, and by the time he was 4, he could speak fluent
>> French and English. He knew which was which, and never got them confused.
>>
>> It never ceased to amaze me how quickly children pick up languages.[...]
> 
> A myth, incessantly repeated. Adults can pick up a new language in
> much less time, provided they are motivated and completely immersed.
> It took me, as an adult, less than a year to become fluent in French.
> 
> Jeroen Belleman

I picked up a few phrases quickly (voulez-vous coucher avec moi, ein bier 
bitta), but it took years before I was able to think in French. Our son had 
no such trouble. Children simply inhale a language.

Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:

> Am 24.12.21 um 22:56 schrieb Jeroen Belleman:
>> On 2021-12-24 20:24, Jan Frank wrote:

[...]

>> A myth, incessantly repeated. Adults can pick up a new language in
>> much less time, provided they are motivated and completely immersed.
>> It took me, as an adult, less than a year to become fluent in French.
>> 
>> Jeroen Belleman
> 
> I started with Latin, then French and then English.
> Really good pupils would have chosen Old-Greek instead of
> English. Thanks Goddess I was bad enough.
> 
> BTW Metz is 65 Km away from where I live.

Saarbrucken? I didn't realize the border was that close. We used to take 
many trips to a US base nearby to get parts for our ford. One time we had a 
load of exhaust pipes and mufflers. We stopped at the border for customs.

When the agent asked if we had anything to declare, our son who was in the 
back seat, started screaming at the top of his lungs. The agent rolled his 
eyes and waved us through. Our son saved us a bit of trouble that day:)

[snip fascinating story]

> Gerhard

On 24/12/2021 22:56, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 2021-12-24 20:24, Jan Frank wrote:
>> Arie de Muijnck <noreply@ademu.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-12-24 16:24, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> Here in the Netherlands they started teaching French in kindergarten.
>>>> Maybe that is why I have few problems with the language when in France.
>>>> They did not start with German and English until highschool.
>>>
>>> Oh, these memories... French started when I was 11, English at 12,
>>> German at 13. Had exams in all 4 languages.
>>>
>>> &#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295; Papa fume une pipe.
>>> &#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295; Maman coupe le pain.
>>> &#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295; Le soldat sur la mur.
>>> &#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295;&#4294967295; etc...
>>>
>>> But it still really helps on holydays in France&#4294967295; :-}
>>>
>>> Arie
>>
>> I am Canadian and married my wife while I was with NATO in Metz, France.
>> Our first child was a boy, and by the time he was 4, he could speak
>> fluent
>> French and English. He knew which was which, and never got them confused.
>>
>> It never ceased to amaze me how quickly children pick up languages.[...]
> 
> A myth, incessantly repeated. Adults can pick up a new language in
> much less time, provided they are motivated and completely immersed.
> It took me, as an adult, less than a year to become fluent in French.
> 

It depends on many factors.  Immersion and dedication is certainly very
important to learning any language.  There's no doubt that most adults
/could/ learn another language fairly fluently if they are motivated,
spend the time and effort required, have suitable learning facilities,
and practice sufficiently outside of the learning environment.  (I
consider my mother-in-law's refusal to speak English to me, and
incredible patience, as significant to my learning Norwegian.)

However, there are many factors that differentiate learning a language
as an adult, and learning it as a child.

To start with, in the first two years of life (and especially the first
six months), a baby's ears and immediate auditory processing is
extremely malleable.  The system is trained and tuned to hear and
distinguish the phoneme of the language the baby hears around it.  There
are hundreds of phonemes used in languages around the world, but each
language only uses a subset.  Added to that, languages vary
significantly in how they handle tones, variations in volume, and other
factors.  Your hearing system is tuned and trained during this part of
your life, and while it can learn more throughout your life its
flexibility drops off sharply with age.

When you learn another language as an adult, but find that certain
sounds in the language are particularly difficult and you get them wrong
both when speaking and listening, it is because you simply cannot hear
the difference.

The effect of this is stronger the greater the difference between the
languages.  Being born and brought up in the Netherlands, you'll
probably have had early contact with several other languages in addition
to Dutch.  If you had heard enough French or English, you'd have some
familiarity with the few phonemes that you would otherwise be missing
when you learned French as an adult.  But if you had decided to learn,
say, Chinese or Thai as an adult, you'd have had a bigger challenge.

Another big effect is language learning at school.  Very few of us keep
much of the French, German or whatever that we "learned" at school.  But
like many subjects at school, the point is not to learn the subject but
to learn to learn.  I remember almost nothing of my French or German
from school, despite having got quite solid grades - but I have no doubt
that they made it far easier to learn Norwegian as an adult.