On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 6:14:23 PM UTC-8, palli...@gmail.com wrote:> > > PT1000/PT100 is ~0.4%/C > > > > Oh, that's just about true for all classical metals; getting a non-PTAT (proportional > > to absolute temperature) resistor is a notable materials-science achievement. > > > > At 20 C, proportional to absolute temperature means about 0.0034 per kelvin; for > > copper, resistance goes 0.00386, for tungsten 0.0045, for aluminum 0.00429, > > for platinum 0.0039 ... > > > >The impure (alloyed) metals used for low tempco have very non-ideal metallic nature. > > > ** " very non- ideal metallic nature" ??????? > > Could you please be bit more ambiguous ??The simple ideal metal doesn't expand or contract with temperature changes, hasn't any crystal defects, no bandgap changes, no magnetism, Einstein model phonon spectrum, and all resistance is the consequence of electron-phonon scattering. Then, if you know the thermal phonon population, THAT determines the resistivity. Alloys for low tempco have various deviations from these behaviors, so the thermal phonon population statistic is not dominant.
Low coefficient NTC resistors?
Started by ●December 10, 2021
Reply by ●December 10, 20212021-12-10
Reply by ●December 11, 20212021-12-11
The biggest Fuckwit on Usenet posts as whit3rd =======================================> > > > >The impure (alloyed) metals used for low tempco have very non-ideal metallic nature. > > > > > ** " very non- ideal metallic nature" ??????? > > > > Could you please be bit more ambiguous ?? >> Cos some fuckheads here will imagine it makes sense.<> > The simple ideal metal doesn't expand or contract with temperature changes, hasn't > any crystal defects, no bandgap changes, no magnetism, Einstein model phonon > spectrum, and all resistance is the consequence of electron-phonon scattering. > Then, if you know the thermal phonon population, THAT determines the resistivity. > Alloys for low tempco have various deviations from these behaviors, so the thermal phonon > population statistic is not dominant. >** Jesus FUCKING CHRIST ALMIGHTY !!! The whitless fucktard troll does not not just live on another planet - it posts direct from another universe !!!!! ..... Phil
Reply by ●December 11, 20212021-12-11
On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 2:22:11 PM UTC+11, palli...@gmail.com wrote:> IEEE Bill ....@ieee.org wrote: > > =========================== > > > The biggest Fuckwit on Usenet posts as whit3rd > > > ==================================== > > > > > > > > > PT1000/PT100 is ~0.4%/C > > > > > > > > Oh, that's just about true for all classical metals; getting a non-PTAT (proportional > > > > to absolute temperature) resistor is a notable materials-science achievement. > > > > > > > > At 20 C, proportional to absolute temperature means about 0.0034 per kelvin; for > > > > copper, resistance goes 0.00386, for tungsten 0.0045, for aluminum 0.00429, > > > > for platinum 0.0039 ... > > > > > > > >The impure (alloyed) metals used for low tempco have very non-ideal metallic nature. > > > > > > > ** " very non- ideal metallic nature" ??????? > > > > > > Could you please be bit more ambiguous ?? > > > > > > Cos some fuckheads here will imagine it makes sense. > > Back when I was in paid work we got a marketing talk from Vishay on their very low temperature coefficient resistors which could get below +/-5ppm per degree > Celcius, if you were willing to buy their most expensive parts (which we were, if not all that often). > > > They not only mucked about with the composition of the materials they laid down in their thin films, > > but they also figured in temperature generated strain by laying down material with one cofficient > > of thermal expansion on a substrate with a a different one. > > This is a longer way of saying that they got non-ideal behaviour. > > ** The witless moron posted about PURE METALS & low tempco metal alloys.Phil doesn't understand what is being talked about, and feels hurt about it . He''s the witless moron in this context. <snipped his characteristic statement of his bewilderment> -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●December 11, 20212021-12-11
On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 3:03:19 PM UTC+11, palli...@gmail.com wrote:> The biggest Fuckwit on Usenet posts as whit3rd > ======================================= > > > > > > >The impure (alloyed) metals used for low tempco have very non-ideal metallic nature. > > > > > > > ** " very non- ideal metallic nature" ??????? > > > > > > Could you please be bit more ambiguous ?? > >> Cos some fuckheads here will imagine it makes sense. > < > > > > The simple ideal metal doesn't expand or contract with temperature changes, hasn't > > any crystal defects, no bandgap changes, no magnetism, Einstein model phonon > > spectrum, and all resistance is the consequence of electron-phonon scattering. > > Then, if you know the thermal phonon population, THAT determines the resistivity. > > Alloys for low tempco have various deviations from these behaviors, so the thermal phonon > > population statistic is not dominant. > > > ** Jesus FUCKING CHRIST ALMIGHTY !!! > > The whitless fucktard troll does not not just live on another planet - it posts direct from another universe !!!!!Or so witless Phil likes to think. If he doesn't know about it, it's something he imagines happens on another planet. He does seem to post from Planet Under-informed. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●December 14, 20212021-12-14
On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:33:18 -0800, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:16:46 -0500, Spehro Pefhany ><speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: > >>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 05:43:39 -0800 (PST), Anthony William Sloman >><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote: >> >>>On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 11:43:16 PM UTC+11, Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 22:50:31 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >Anyone aware of such a thing? >>>> > >>>> >Clearly, one can achieve that just by putting a thermistor in series >>>> >with an ordinary resistor, but my UPS seems to contain a single >>>> >component that behaves that way - perhaps less than 1% at 20 Celcius - >>>> >it's in the circuit that controls the battery charging float voltage. >>>> > >>>> >Did they perhaps exist 20 years ago (when my UPS was made), for some reason? >>>> >>>> Yes, I have purchased custom positive temperature coefficient >>>> resistors in relatively small lots (10K, if memory serves). >>>> >>>> They're usually in around the tempco of metals and alloys. (a few >>>> thousand ppm per degree C, positive and fairly linear. >>>> >>>> You can find a few values of nickel thin film resistors on Digikey >>>> that have a similar tempco. >>>> >>>> Putting a resistor in series with a conventional NTC does not work so >>>> well over a wide temperature range because of the nonlinearity of the >>>> thermistor. >>> >>>My impression was that nickel thin film resistors were the poor man's platinum resistance sensor. They had around the same temperature coefficient - the resistance was more or less proportional to absolute temperature around room temperature. They weren't as good as platinum resistance sensors - for one thing they oxidise if they get too hot. Wikipedia says that they go non-linear about about 300 Celcius. >>> >>>https://www.prelectronics.com/the-fundamentals-of-rtd-temperature-sensors/ >>> >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_thermometer >> >>Propietary nickel alloy base metal sensors are used in HVAC >>applications by folks like Honeywell. >> >>Ni120 sensors (wound and now thin film) are traditionally used in some >>applications like bearing and motor stator winding temperature >>(sometimes they use Cu RTDs for the latter). >> >>The SMT 0603 etc. Vishay ones I was mentioning are pretty awful for >>sensors, almost a 10% tolerance on Tempco and a max temperature of >>150�C minus self-heating so their applications would be limited. The >>ones I sourced from a Japanese factory had much tighter tolerance on >>tempco. > >The ZNI1000 nickel RTD is a cool part. It can be linearized with one >resistor. > >Of course, ic temp sensors are cheap and can be had analog or SPI.-- Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
Reply by ●December 14, 20212021-12-14
On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:33:18 -0800, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:16:46 -0500, Spehro Pefhany ><speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: > >>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 05:43:39 -0800 (PST), Anthony William Sloman >><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote: >> >>>On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 11:43:16 PM UTC+11, Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 22:50:31 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >Anyone aware of such a thing? >>>> > >>>> >Clearly, one can achieve that just by putting a thermistor in series >>>> >with an ordinary resistor, but my UPS seems to contain a single >>>> >component that behaves that way - perhaps less than 1% at 20 Celcius - >>>> >it's in the circuit that controls the battery charging float voltage. >>>> > >>>> >Did they perhaps exist 20 years ago (when my UPS was made), for some reason? >>>> >>>> Yes, I have purchased custom positive temperature coefficient >>>> resistors in relatively small lots (10K, if memory serves). >>>> >>>> They're usually in around the tempco of metals and alloys. (a few >>>> thousand ppm per degree C, positive and fairly linear. >>>> >>>> You can find a few values of nickel thin film resistors on Digikey >>>> that have a similar tempco. >>>> >>>> Putting a resistor in series with a conventional NTC does not work so >>>> well over a wide temperature range because of the nonlinearity of the >>>> thermistor. >>> >>>My impression was that nickel thin film resistors were the poor man's platinum resistance sensor. They had around the same temperature coefficient - the resistance was more or less proportional to absolute temperature around room temperature. They weren't as good as platinum resistance sensors - for one thing they oxidise if they get too hot. Wikipedia says that they go non-linear about about 300 Celcius. >>> >>>https://www.prelectronics.com/the-fundamentals-of-rtd-temperature-sensors/ >>> >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_thermometer >> >>Propietary nickel alloy base metal sensors are used in HVAC >>applications by folks like Honeywell. >> >>Ni120 sensors (wound and now thin film) are traditionally used in some >>applications like bearing and motor stator winding temperature >>(sometimes they use Cu RTDs for the latter). >> >>The SMT 0603 etc. Vishay ones I was mentioning are pretty awful for >>sensors, almost a 10% tolerance on Tempco and a max temperature of >>150�C minus self-heating so their applications would be limited. The >>ones I sourced from a Japanese factory had much tighter tolerance on >>tempco. > >The ZNI1000 nickel RTD is a cool part. It can be linearized with one >resistor.Interesting part, thanks. The accuracy is pretty good. These Pt guys are a bit more expensive but nice: https://www.vishay.com/docs/28762/ptsserie.pdf You can do the one resistor linearization trick with them too.>Of course, ic temp sensors are cheap and can be had analog or SPI.-- Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
Reply by ●December 14, 20212021-12-14
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 23:44:11 -0500, Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:33:18 -0800, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com >wrote: > >>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:16:46 -0500, Spehro Pefhany >><speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 05:43:39 -0800 (PST), Anthony William Sloman >>><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote: >>> >>>>On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 11:43:16 PM UTC+11, Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 22:50:31 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >Anyone aware of such a thing? >>>>> > >>>>> >Clearly, one can achieve that just by putting a thermistor in series >>>>> >with an ordinary resistor, but my UPS seems to contain a single >>>>> >component that behaves that way - perhaps less than 1% at 20 Celcius - >>>>> >it's in the circuit that controls the battery charging float voltage. >>>>> > >>>>> >Did they perhaps exist 20 years ago (when my UPS was made), for some reason? >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I have purchased custom positive temperature coefficient >>>>> resistors in relatively small lots (10K, if memory serves). >>>>> >>>>> They're usually in around the tempco of metals and alloys. (a few >>>>> thousand ppm per degree C, positive and fairly linear. >>>>> >>>>> You can find a few values of nickel thin film resistors on Digikey >>>>> that have a similar tempco. >>>>> >>>>> Putting a resistor in series with a conventional NTC does not work so >>>>> well over a wide temperature range because of the nonlinearity of the >>>>> thermistor. >>>> >>>>My impression was that nickel thin film resistors were the poor man's platinum resistance sensor. They had around the same temperature coefficient - the resistance was more or less proportional to absolute temperature around room temperature. They weren't as good as platinum resistance sensors - for one thing they oxidise if they get too hot. Wikipedia says that they go non-linear about about 300 Celcius. >>>> >>>>https://www.prelectronics.com/the-fundamentals-of-rtd-temperature-sensors/ >>>> >>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_thermometer >>> >>>Propietary nickel alloy base metal sensors are used in HVAC >>>applications by folks like Honeywell. >>> >>>Ni120 sensors (wound and now thin film) are traditionally used in some >>>applications like bearing and motor stator winding temperature >>>(sometimes they use Cu RTDs for the latter). >>> >>>The SMT 0603 etc. Vishay ones I was mentioning are pretty awful for >>>sensors, almost a 10% tolerance on Tempco and a max temperature of >>>150�C minus self-heating so their applications would be limited. The >>>ones I sourced from a Japanese factory had much tighter tolerance on >>>tempco. >> >>The ZNI1000 nickel RTD is a cool part. It can be linearized with one >>resistor. > >Interesting part, thanks. The accuracy is pretty good. > >These Pt guys are a bit more expensive but nice: > >https://www.vishay.com/docs/28762/ptsserie.pdf > >You can do the one resistor linearization trick with them too. > > >>Of course, ic temp sensors are cheap and can be had analog or SPI.1206 and 0805 thinfilm platinum RTDs are nice and have the virtue of being multi-sourced. There's a cute one-opamp conditioning and linearizing circuit for platinum RTDs, assuming you don't want to do it in software. -- I yam what I yam - Popeye
Reply by ●December 14, 20212021-12-14
On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 4:24:19 PM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 23:44:11 -0500, Spehro Pefhany > <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: > > >On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:33:18 -0800, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com > >wrote: > > > >>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:16:46 -0500, Spehro Pefhany > >><spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: > >> > >>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 05:43:39 -0800 (PST), Anthony William Sloman > >>><bill....@ieee.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>>On Friday, December 10, 2021 at 11:43:16 PM UTC+11, Spehro Pefhany wrote: > >>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 22:50:31 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> >Anyone aware of such a thing? > >>>>> > > >>>>> >Clearly, one can achieve that just by putting a thermistor in series > >>>>> >with an ordinary resistor, but my UPS seems to contain a single > >>>>> >component that behaves that way - perhaps less than 1% at 20 Celcius - > >>>>> >it's in the circuit that controls the battery charging float voltage. > >>>>> > > >>>>> >Did they perhaps exist 20 years ago (when my UPS was made), for some reason? > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, I have purchased custom positive temperature coefficient > >>>>> resistors in relatively small lots (10K, if memory serves). > >>>>> > >>>>> They're usually in around the tempco of metals and alloys. (a few > >>>>> thousand ppm per degree C, positive and fairly linear. > >>>>> > >>>>> You can find a few values of nickel thin film resistors on Digikey > >>>>> that have a similar tempco. > >>>>> > >>>>> Putting a resistor in series with a conventional NTC does not work so > >>>>> well over a wide temperature range because of the nonlinearity of the > >>>>> thermistor. > >>>> > >>>>My impression was that nickel thin film resistors were the poor man's platinum resistance sensor. They had around the same temperature coefficient - the resistance was more or less proportional to absolute temperature around room temperature. They weren't as good as platinum resistance sensors - for one thing they oxidise if they get too hot. Wikipedia says that they go non-linear about about 300 Celcius. > >>>> > >>>>https://www.prelectronics.com/the-fundamentals-of-rtd-temperature-sensors/ > >>>> > >>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_thermometer > >>> > >>>Propietary nickel alloy base metal sensors are used in HVAC > >>>applications by folks like Honeywell. > >>> > >>>Ni120 sensors (wound and now thin film) are traditionally used in some > >>>applications like bearing and motor stator winding temperature > >>>(sometimes they use Cu RTDs for the latter). > >>> > >>>The SMT 0603 etc. Vishay ones I was mentioning are pretty awful for > >>>sensors, almost a 10% tolerance on Tempco and a max temperature of > >>>150°C minus self-heating so their applications would be limited. The > >>>ones I sourced from a Japanese factory had much tighter tolerance on > >>>tempco. > >> > >>The ZNI1000 nickel RTD is a cool part. It can be linearized with one > >>resistor. > > > >Interesting part, thanks. The accuracy is pretty good. > > > >These Pt guys are a bit more expensive but nice: > > > >https://www.vishay.com/docs/28762/ptsserie.pdf > > > >You can do the one resistor linearization trick with them too. > > > > > >>Of course, ic temp sensors are cheap and can be had analog or SPI. > 1206 and 0805 thinfilm platinum RTDs are nice and have the virtue of > being multi-sourced. > > There's a cute one-opamp conditioning and linearizing circuit for > platinum RTDs, assuming you don't want to do it in software.Back when I did one, back in 1979, you needed a lot of gain in that one op amp. I ended up going with four - it made the low pass filtering a lot easier. My bosses got tetchy, so I had to draw the one, two and three op amp options. Electrotherm had a bulk deal on the uA715, so the one amplifier option wasn't all that expensive, but nothing else around at the time had that much gain. The linearising involved a smidgen of positive feedback which frightened the guy who took over the project, and nobody could make him see sense. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●December 14, 20212021-12-14
"the concepts "male" and "female" are essentially social constructions" (Bill Sloman) "the Mueller investigation was about Trump only because Trump made it so" (Bozo paraphrased) Bozo Bill Sloman is a chronic liar who cannot be reasoned with... -- Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:> X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5b82:: with SMTP id a2mr31334720qta.519.1639190183362; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:36:23 -0800 (PST) > X-Received: by 2002:a25:d04d:: with SMTP id h74mr18812463ybg.266.1639190183076; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:36:23 -0800 (PST) > Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:36:22 -0800 (PST) > In-Reply-To: <0d6a94d9-e1e5-45c9-a353-41ba02182ff5n@googlegroups.com> > Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=203.213.69.109; posting-account=SJ46pgoAAABuUDuHc5uDiXN30ATE-zi- > NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.213.69.109 > References: <j1gt8aF63iuU1@mid.individual.net> <bc47ce70-539b-48dd-9469-9ad789009e31n@googlegroups.com> <2085e59f-c355-447e-be76-fc9b9b4c3604n@googlegroups.com> <0d6a94d9-e1e5-45c9-a353-41ba02182ff5n@googlegroups.com> > User-Agent: G2/1.0 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Message-ID: <54d7ef11-d692-4e27-b3d6-6dc820a380ean@googlegroups.com> > Subject: Re: Low coefficient NTC resistors? > From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> > Injection-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 02:36:23 +0000 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Lines: 42 > Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:654587 > > On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 1:14:23 PM UTC+11, palli...@gmail.com wrote: >> The biggest Fuckwit on Usenet posts as whit3rd >> ======================== > ===========> > >> > > PT1000/PT100 is ~0.4%/C >> > >> > Oh, that's just about true for all classical metals; getting a non-PTAT > (proportional >> > to absolute temperature) resistor is a notable materials-science achiev > ement. >> > >> > At 20 C, proportional to absolute temperature means about 0.0034 per ke > lvin; for >> > copper, resistance goes 0.00386, for tungsten 0.0045, for aluminum 0.00 > 429, >> > for platinum 0.0039 ... >> > >> >The impure (alloyed) metals used for low tempco have very non-ideal meta > llic nature. >> > >> ** " very non- ideal metallic nature" ??????? >> >> Could you please be bit more ambiguous ?? >> >> Cos some fuckheads here will imagine it makes sense. > > Back when I was in paid work we got a marketing talk from Vishay on their very low temperature coefficient resistors which could get below +/-5ppm per degree Celcius, if you were willing to buy their most expensive parts (which we were, if not all that often). > > They not only mucked about with the composition of the materials they laid down in their thin films, but they also figured in temperature generated strain by laying down material with one cofficient of thermal expansion on a substrate with a a different one. This is a longer way of saying that they got non-ideal behaviour. I can see whit3rd might have wanted to avoid testing your attention span (which isn't all that long). > > -- > Bill Sloman, Sydney > > >
Reply by ●December 14, 20212021-12-14
The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id <sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:> The troll doesn't even know how to format a USENET post...And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id <sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:> The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from > breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is > CLUELESS...And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Tue, 14 Dec 2021 06:40:44 -0000 (UTC) in message-id <sp9e9b$q3d$1@dont-email.me>. This posting is a public service announcement for any google groups readers who happen by to point out that the John Doe troll does not even follow it's own rules that it uses to troll other posters. mFpwbmxNA8bW
