Forums

PIN diode

Started by Unknown October 19, 2021
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:46:14 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

>On 2021-10-21 18:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:16:02 +0200, Jeroen Belleman >> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >> >>> On 2021-10-21 13:32, Clifford Heath wrote: >>>> On 21/10/21 8:23 pm, John S wrote: >>>>> On 10/20/2021 4:41 PM, Clifford Heath wrote: >>>>>> On 21/10/21 3:00 am, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>>>> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 18:42:53 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 10/20/2021 5:20, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> I want to inject a 100 ps test pulse into a 50 ohm transmission line, >>>>>>>>> tee-wise, sometimes, from a 25 ohm source. So I need a series switch. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd never paid much attention to PIN diodes... they are RF stuff. But >>>>>>>>> this one is shocking: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/249/MADP_008120_12790T-1921620.pdf >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2 ohms on, 0.14 pF off. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And that's packaged. Chip and beam-lead parts are even better. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course, in the long-honored RF tradition, there are no DC specs. No >>>>>>>>> hint of the forward conduction curve. A tiny note suggests that 10 mA, >>>>>>>>> 1 volt might happen. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for posting this John. I had been looking for something like >>>>>>>> that for a pulse generator I might want to build one day (after >>>>>>>> nearly 30 years this day may be coming closer...) and so far I >>>>>>>> had seen only parts with 1-2 V reverse voltage ability; this one >>>>>>>> seems to handle way more than I need. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah, the specs shocked me, after struggling to do this with a >>>>>>> schottky. The carrier lifetime could be a problem with long pulses. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I love pulse generators. Let me know if I can help. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are all sorts of cheap fungens and scopes and such, but pulse >>>>>>> generators are generally still mediocre and expensive. I want to do >>>>>>> one myself some day, a really fast version of our DDG. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is plenty of excitement around the NanoVNA and the TinySA. >>>>>> It's time to do a TinyTDR. Bet you'd sell many thousands. If you do the pulse gen and the sampler I'll do the rest. >>>>>> >>>>>> Clifford Heath >>>>> >>>>> The NanoVNA does TDR. >>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9thbTC8-JtA> >>>> >>>> Badly, by transforming the frequency/impedance response. >>>> Nothing like a real TDR. >>> >>> I wonder. I haven't looked at this device in particular, but >>> when I use the FT feature on my HP8753D VNA, the TDR trace is >>> _much_ cleaner than the trace from my Tek S6 sampler and S52 >>> pulser combination. You can't beat a VNA for S/N. >>> >>> Granted, you don't expect HP8753-class quality from a NanoVNA. >>> >>> Jeroen Belleman >> >> Later generation Tek TDR is much better. And you can smooth and signal >> average to improve s/n if you really need to. >> >> A dual-channel SD24 TDR head is a nice combination pulse generator and >> scope, DC to 20 GHz. >> >> Is a VNA tdr realtime? I like to run my finger along a trace and >> follow the TDR, to locate vias and corners and such. >> >> I can also touch things with a pencil and instantly see exactly where >> features are. > >No, the HP8753 has a pretty wimpy processor, so updates are slow. >A real TDR clearly wins out there. > >It's not so long ago that I realized I can drive the 7T11 sampler >time base plug-in with a DAC to control the sweep and read-out the >7S11 sampling head plug-in with an ADC. So I can now read, filter >and average TDR traces to my heart's content with a 50 year-old >instrument. > >Jeroen Belleman
At a trade show, Tek demo'd a little box that accepted SD-series sampling heads and had a computer interface, but they never offered it for sale. The heads are cheapish on ebay, so someone could make such a box. The SD heads are really good, -- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:25:49 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 16:41:57 -0700, John Larkin ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 18:30:45 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:09:01 -0700, John Larkin >>><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:50:53 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:20:04 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>I want to inject a 100 ps test pulse into a 50 ohm transmission line, >>>>>>tee-wise, sometimes, from a 25 ohm source. So I need a series switch. >>>>>> >>>>>>I'd never paid much attention to PIN diodes... they are RF stuff. But >>>>>>this one is shocking: >>>>>> >>>>>>https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/249/MADP_008120_12790T-1921620.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>>2 ohms on, 0.14 pF off. >>>>>> >>>>>>And that's packaged. Chip and beam-lead parts are even better. >>>>>> >>>>>>Of course, in the long-honored RF tradition, there are no DC specs. No >>>>>>hint of the forward conduction curve. A tiny note suggests that 10 mA, >>>>>>1 volt might happen. >>>>> >>>>>What's so special? >>>>> >>>>>A simple re-sort of smd marking files by function, voltage and >>>>>current, pulls up quite a few similar or superior devices. >>>>> >>>>>http://ve3ute.ca/query/smd_PIN_V_A_210810E.zip >>>>> >>>>>RL >>>> >>>>The amps and volts numbers appear to be abs max, forward current and >>>>reverse voltage. That tells nothing about the conduction curve. >>>> >>>>RF! >>> >>>You mean the 'R' values . . . ? >> >>What is the hfe column? Some values seem to be ohms (RF resistance?) >>and some are volts and some are in RT's and one is RfT! >> >>RF! >> >>> >>>I'd assumed you were praising C and R specs. You can sort for >>>those. They're a start. For a nominal V/I plot, you'd have to >>>get the datasheet. >> >>That was my point. PIN diode data sheets don't seem to have V/I data. >> >>> >>>Nominal plots aren't much use in design, where every part used >>>has to work. >> >>No data at all is better? That's all over RF data sheets. > >I don't think a standard PIN data sheet (or diode, for that matter) >is going to help you much, if you intend to use <5V as bias. > >You must be anticipating mV signal levels . . . then why a PIN? > >RL
I want to inject a fast pulse, 1 volt or so, into a transmission line. 25 ohm source, 25 ohm load. And I want to really disconnect when we're not injecting this pulse. A 0.25 pF schottky would have its diode drop and an extra 10 ohms of series resistance. The PIN is just 2 ohms. -- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon
On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 9:45:08 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:25:49 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > > >On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 16:41:57 -0700, John Larkin > ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > >>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 18:30:45 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > >> > >>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:09:01 -0700, John Larkin > >>><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:50:53 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:20:04 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com
<snip>
> I want to inject a fast pulse, 1 volt or so, into a transmission line. > 25 ohm source, 25 ohm load. > > And I want to really disconnect when we're not injecting this pulse. > > A 0.25 pF schottky would have its diode drop and an extra 10 ohms of > series resistance. The PIN is just 2 ohms.
Sounds more like a case for cascode. If you use a transistor - bipolar, FET or MOSFET - it looks like the collector/drain capacitance when it is off, and like a current source when it is on. 1V into a 25 ohm transmission line is 40mA, which you could get out of a BFR96 - the BFR92 won't do more than 25mA. Some of those funny FETs you have been boasting about might do as well. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
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-- 
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

> X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:231:: with SMTP id u17mr7868451qkm.237.1634871687038; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:01:27 -0700 (PDT) > X-Received: by 2002:a25:690a:: with SMTP id e10mr5605029ybc.415.1634871686879; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:01:26 -0700 (PDT) > Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.mixmin.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:01:26 -0700 (PDT) > In-Reply-To: <t3r3ng9gtd9vntccfca1fdkqc51q8j8n78@4ax.com> > Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=14.202.25.252; posting-account=SJ46pgoAAABuUDuHc5uDiXN30ATE-zi- > NNTP-Posting-Host: 14.202.25.252 > References: <v9uumgdob2ot6qlll0bj256l5b6s8cuc3m@4ax.com> <p3p0nglnpaon91ecbinnlhob6an17v5ah4@4ax.com> <vlt0nghkttqk9rq9qjdg0k3d57o8sp8a4j@4ax.com> <aq51ng1qubapiskf0gmkljlib6qhs6otk4@4ax.com> <sr91ng9e2n5hmhtc1s07oha9pumg2s9f1r@4ax.com> <uef3ngh483p5ohl97fivk035mofkrnvt6o@4ax.com> <t3r3ng9gtd9vntccfca1fdkqc51q8j8n78@4ax.com> > User-Agent: G2/1.0 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Message-ID: <43ce3d1e-bd2c-4946-bbb2-beee00afe0c4n@googlegroups.com> > Subject: Re: PIN diode > From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> > Injection-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 03:01:27 +0000 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:649957 > > On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 9:45:08 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote: >> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:25:49 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: >> >> >On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 16:41:57 -0700, John Larkin >> ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> > >> >>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 18:30:45 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:09:01 -0700, John Larkin >> >>><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:50:53 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:20:04 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com > > <snip> > >> I want to inject a fast pulse, 1 volt or so, into a transmission line. >> 25 ohm source, 25 ohm load. >> >> And I want to really disconnect when we're not injecting this pulse. >> >> A 0.25 pF schottky would have its diode drop and an extra 10 ohms of >> series resistance. The PIN is just 2 ohms. > > Sounds more like a case for cascode. If you use a transistor - bipolar, FET or MOSFET - it looks like the collector/drain capacitance when it is off, and like a current source when it is on. > > 1V into a 25 ohm transmission line is 40mA, which you could get out of a BFR96 - the BFR92 won't do more than 25mA. Some of those funny FETs you have been boasting about might do as well. > > -- > Bill Sloman, Sydney >
On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 2:40:53 PM UTC+11, John Doe wrote:
> Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote: > > On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 9:45:08 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote: > >> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:25:49 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > >> >On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 16:41:57 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> >>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 18:30:45 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > >> >>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:09:01 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> >>>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:50:53 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > >> >>>>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:20:04 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com > > > > <snip> > > > >> I want to inject a fast pulse, 1 volt or so, into a transmission line. > >> 25 ohm source, 25 ohm load. > >> > >> And I want to really disconnect when we're not injecting this pulse. > >> > >> A 0.25 pF schottky would have its diode drop and an extra 10 ohms of > >> series resistance. The PIN is just 2 ohms. > > > > Sounds more like a case for cascode. If you use a transistor - bipolar, FET or MOSFET - it looks like the collector/drain capacitance when it is off, and like a current source when it is on. > > > > 1V into a 25 ohm transmission line is 40mA, which you could get out of a BFR96 - the BFR92 won't do more than 25mA. Some of those funny FETs you have been boasting about might do as well.
<snipped John Doe's usual non-contributions. He usually doesn't pay any attention to technical threads, and probably hasn't understood that this is a potentially useful technical contribution, not that John Larkin will pay any attention to it, so he seems to be feeling more than usual pressure to make himself heard. Is there some kind of trophy for being the most mindless anonymous troll? He might be posting more to raise his chance of winning.> -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
On 2021-10-22 00:44, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:25:49 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > >> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 16:41:57 -0700, John Larkin >> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 18:30:45 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:09:01 -0700, John Larkin >>>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:50:53 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:20:04 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I want to inject a 100 ps test pulse into a 50 ohm transmission line, >>>>>>> tee-wise, sometimes, from a 25 ohm source. So I need a series switch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd never paid much attention to PIN diodes... they are RF stuff. But >>>>>>> this one is shocking: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/249/MADP_008120_12790T-1921620.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2 ohms on, 0.14 pF off. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And that's packaged. Chip and beam-lead parts are even better. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, in the long-honored RF tradition, there are no DC specs. No >>>>>>> hint of the forward conduction curve. A tiny note suggests that 10 mA, >>>>>>> 1 volt might happen. >>>>>> >>>>>> What's so special? >>>>>> >>>>>> A simple re-sort of smd marking files by function, voltage and >>>>>> current, pulls up quite a few similar or superior devices. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://ve3ute.ca/query/smd_PIN_V_A_210810E.zip >>>>>> >>>>>> RL >>>>> >>>>> The amps and volts numbers appear to be abs max, forward current and >>>>> reverse voltage. That tells nothing about the conduction curve. >>>>> >>>>> RF! >>>> >>>> You mean the 'R' values . . . ? >>> >>> What is the hfe column? Some values seem to be ohms (RF resistance?) >>> and some are volts and some are in RT's and one is RfT! >>> >>> RF! >>> >>>> >>>> I'd assumed you were praising C and R specs. You can sort for >>>> those. They're a start. For a nominal V/I plot, you'd have to >>>> get the datasheet. >>> >>> That was my point. PIN diode data sheets don't seem to have V/I data. >>> >>>> >>>> Nominal plots aren't much use in design, where every part used >>>> has to work. >>> >>> No data at all is better? That's all over RF data sheets. >> >> I don't think a standard PIN data sheet (or diode, for that matter) >> is going to help you much, if you intend to use <5V as bias. >> >> You must be anticipating mV signal levels . . . then why a PIN? >> >> RL > > I want to inject a fast pulse, 1 volt or so, into a transmission line. > 25 ohm source, 25 ohm load. > > And I want to really disconnect when we're not injecting this pulse. > > A 0.25 pF schottky would have its diode drop and an extra 10 ohms of > series resistance. The PIN is just 2 ohms. >
What? The PIN has its diode drop too. The 2 ohms is the dynamic resistance. Jeroen Belleman
On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 5:16:31 PM UTC+11, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 2021-10-22 00:44, John Larkin wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:25:49 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > >> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 16:41:57 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >>> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 18:30:45 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > >>>> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:09:01 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >>>>> On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:50:53 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote: > >>>>>> On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:20:04 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
<snip>
> > A 0.25 pF schottky would have its diode drop and an extra 10 ohms of series resistance. The PIN is just 2 ohms. > > > What? The PIN has its diode drop too. The 2 ohms is the dynamic resistance.
"Impedance" please, John Larkin went to Tulane, so he probably doesn't know better, but you should. It is mostly capacitative. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id 
<sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

> The troll doesn't even know how to format a USENET post...
And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id <sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:
> The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from > breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is > CLUELESS...
And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Fri, 22 Oct 2021 03:40:47 -0000 (UTC) in message-id <sktbrv$trh$2@dont-email.me>. aRXf2rK8xH4x
A nym-shifting stalker, usually "Corvid".
Spanked in (sci.electronics.repair)...

see also...
=?UTF-8?Q?C=c3=b6rvid?= <bl@ckbirds.org>
=?UTF-8?B?8J+QriBDb3dzIGFyZSBOaWNlIPCfkK4=?= <nice@cows.moo>
Banders <snap@mailchute.com>
Covid-19 <always.look@message.header>
Corvid <bl@ckbirds.net>
Corvid <bl@ckbirds.org>
Cows Are Nice <cows@nice.moo>
Cows are nice <moo@cows.org>
Cows are Nice <nice@cows.moo>
dogs <dogs@home.com>
Edward H. <dtgamer99@gmail.com>
Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com>
Great Pumpkin <pumpkin@patch.net>
Jose Curvo <jcurvo@mymail.com>
Local Favorite <how2recycle@palomar.info>
Peter Weiner <dtgamer99@gmail.com>
Sea <freshness@coast.org>
Standard Poodle <standard@poodle.com>
triangles <build@home.com>
and others...

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Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com> wrote:

> Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed7.news.xs4all.nl!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer01.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx02.ams4.POSTED!not-for-mail > From: Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: PIN diode > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design,free.spam > References: <v9uumgdob2ot6qlll0bj256l5b6s8cuc3m@4ax.com> <p3p0nglnpaon91ecbinnlhob6an17v5ah4@4ax.com> <vlt0nghkttqk9rq9qjdg0k3d57o8sp8a4j@4ax.com> <aq51ng1qubapiskf0gmkljlib6qhs6otk4@4ax.com> <sr91ng9e2n5hmhtc1s07oha9pumg2s9f1r@4ax.com> <uef3ngh483p5ohl97fivk035mofkrnvt6o@4ax.com> <t3r3ng9gtd9vntccfca1fdkqc51q8j8n78@4ax.com> <43ce3d1e-bd2c-4946-bbb2-beee00afe0c4n@googlegroups.com> <sktbrv$trh$2@dont-email.me> > Lines: 18 > Message-ID: <yYycJ.1472206$E24.678857@usenetxs.com> > X-Complaints-To: https://www.astraweb.com/aup > NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 13:24:46 UTC > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 13:24:46 GMT > X-Received-Bytes: 1481 > Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:649983 free.spam:16264 > > The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id > <sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>: > >> The troll doesn't even know how to format a USENET post... > > And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id > <sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>: > >> The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from >> breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is >> CLUELESS... > > And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another > incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Fri, 22 Oct 2021 03:40:47 -0000 > (UTC) in message-id <sktbrv$trh$2@dont-email.me>. > > aRXf2rK8xH4x > > >
The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id 
<sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

> The troll doesn't even know how to format a USENET post...
And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id <sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:
> The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from > breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is > CLUELESS...
And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Fri, 22 Oct 2021 17:55:44 -0000 (UTC) in message-id <skutuv$ij5$4@dont-email.me>. ieSCpFK4Lqyu