On 9/21/2021 3:51 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:> 21.09.21 08:32, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Mon, 20 Sep 2021 17:45:12 -0400) it happened bitrex >> <user@example.net> wrote in <Jh72J.114246$Kv2.67276@fx47.iad>: >> >>> Is it possible to take your standard Baxandall and tap the capacitor, >>> take an aux winding off the secondary and feed a somewhat higher DC >>> voltage to the cap (through the usual two-diode supply handoff >>> arrangement), and use it to feed the gate drive to the transistors as >>> well, which would be clocked rather than self-oscillating. >>> >>> The goal would be to have a quiet step-up converter that could do say >>> 5 to ~150 in one step, or maybe with a single multiplier stage. That >>> seems hard to do with anything off the shelf as compact pulse >>> transformers with the appropriate turns ratio don't seem to be really >>> available, you get into CFL-type transformers whose ratios are too >>> large, but there might be something appropriate with a third winding >>> to bootstrap the primary swing >> >> High ratio transformers are easy with UI or E cores >> I wind the small ones with thin seundary on the dremel... >> Just count... >> http://panteltje.com/pub/home_made_1_to_33_hv_transformer_img_3096.jpg >> >> 12V DC to approx 440 Vpp 20 to 44 kHz: >> http://panteltje.com/pub/ultrasonic_antifouling_bigger_transformer_IMG_5179.JPG >> >> http://panteltje.com/pub/ultrasonic_anti_fouling_test_board_IMG_5135.JPG >> >> Not to mention all the TV high voltage flyback stuff.. >> and what a little BC107 or so can do: >> http://panteltje.com/pub/new_transformer_test_setup_img_3153.jpg >> >> Have no fear of transformers.... >> http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_supply_with_regulator_img_3175.jpg >> http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_supply_componet_side_img_3180.jpg >> >> This uses a standard 1:10 audio? transformer flyback to power a GMtube: >> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/ >> seems quiet.... Even has GPS >> >> so many projects with transformers... >> > It seems a Halfbridge converter would be a good fit > > With 5V it's easy to drive, with high frequency the number of turns will > be low. Increase efficiency by splitting the winding, maybe add external > inductor for resonant LLC operation > > Drive it from a microcontroller with 50 duty to avoid output inductor or > do a phase shifted Halfbridge to be able to regulate the voltage if needed > -- > KlausI prefer that idea, these one and two transistor circuits are cute but pretty crude
Turbo Royer/Baxandall in boost configuration
Started by ●September 20, 2021
Reply by ●September 21, 20212021-09-21
Reply by ●September 21, 20212021-09-21
On 9/21/2021 3:51 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:> 21.09.21 08:32, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Mon, 20 Sep 2021 17:45:12 -0400) it happened bitrex >> <user@example.net> wrote in <Jh72J.114246$Kv2.67276@fx47.iad>: >> >>> Is it possible to take your standard Baxandall and tap the capacitor, >>> take an aux winding off the secondary and feed a somewhat higher DC >>> voltage to the cap (through the usual two-diode supply handoff >>> arrangement), and use it to feed the gate drive to the transistors as >>> well, which would be clocked rather than self-oscillating. >>> >>> The goal would be to have a quiet step-up converter that could do say >>> 5 to ~150 in one step, or maybe with a single multiplier stage. That >>> seems hard to do with anything off the shelf as compact pulse >>> transformers with the appropriate turns ratio don't seem to be really >>> available, you get into CFL-type transformers whose ratios are too >>> large, but there might be something appropriate with a third winding >>> to bootstrap the primary swing >> >> High ratio transformers are easy with UI or E cores >> I wind the small ones with thin seundary on the dremel... >> Just count... >> http://panteltje.com/pub/home_made_1_to_33_hv_transformer_img_3096.jpg >> >> 12V DC to approx 440 Vpp 20 to 44 kHz: >> http://panteltje.com/pub/ultrasonic_antifouling_bigger_transformer_IMG_5179.JPG >> >> http://panteltje.com/pub/ultrasonic_anti_fouling_test_board_IMG_5135.JPG >> >> Not to mention all the TV high voltage flyback stuff.. >> and what a little BC107 or so can do: >> http://panteltje.com/pub/new_transformer_test_setup_img_3153.jpg >> >> Have no fear of transformers.... >> http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_supply_with_regulator_img_3175.jpg >> http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_supply_componet_side_img_3180.jpg >> >> This uses a standard 1:10 audio? transformer flyback to power a GMtube: >> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/ >> seems quiet.... Even has GPS >> >> so many projects with transformers... >> > It seems a Halfbridge converter would be a good fit > > With 5V it's easy to drive, with high frequency the number of turns will > be low. Increase efficiency by splitting the winding, maybe add external > inductor for resonant LLC operation > > Drive it from a microcontroller with 50 duty to avoid output inductor or > do a phase shifted Halfbridge to be able to regulate the voltage if needed > -- > KlausSomething like this is actually probably good enough, there won't be large load variations: <https://sound-au.com/articles/smps-f15.gif> The nice thing about some GreenPAK devices is they have two sets of output pins, one rated to +5.5 and one rated to +12, with independent Vccs. So the thing can start up off +5 and then an aux winding can feed the +12 rail to drive the high-side transistor.
Reply by ●September 21, 20212021-09-21
tirsdag den 21. september 2021 kl. 23.06.29 UTC+2 skrev bitrex:> On 9/21/2021 3:51 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > 21.09.21 08:32, Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> On a sunny day (Mon, 20 Sep 2021 17:45:12 -0400) it happened bitrex > >> <us...@example.net> wrote in <Jh72J.114246$Kv2....@fx47.iad>: > >> > >>> Is it possible to take your standard Baxandall and tap the capacitor, > >>> take an aux winding off the secondary and feed a somewhat higher DC > >>> voltage to the cap (through the usual two-diode supply handoff > >>> arrangement), and use it to feed the gate drive to the transistors as > >>> well, which would be clocked rather than self-oscillating. > >>> > >>> The goal would be to have a quiet step-up converter that could do say > >>> 5 to ~150 in one step, or maybe with a single multiplier stage. That > >>> seems hard to do with anything off the shelf as compact pulse > >>> transformers with the appropriate turns ratio don't seem to be really > >>> available, you get into CFL-type transformers whose ratios are too > >>> large, but there might be something appropriate with a third winding > >>> to bootstrap the primary swing > >> > >> High ratio transformers are easy with UI or E cores > >> I wind the small ones with thin seundary on the dremel... > >> Just count... > >> http://panteltje.com/pub/home_made_1_to_33_hv_transformer_img_3096.jpg > >> > >> 12V DC to approx 440 Vpp 20 to 44 kHz: > >> http://panteltje.com/pub/ultrasonic_antifouling_bigger_transformer_IMG_5179.JPG > >> > >> http://panteltje.com/pub/ultrasonic_anti_fouling_test_board_IMG_5135.JPG > >> > >> Not to mention all the TV high voltage flyback stuff.. > >> and what a little BC107 or so can do: > >> http://panteltje.com/pub/new_transformer_test_setup_img_3153.jpg > >> > >> Have no fear of transformers.... > >> http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_supply_with_regulator_img_3175.jpg > >> http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_supply_componet_side_img_3180.jpg > >> > >> This uses a standard 1:10 audio? transformer flyback to power a GMtube: > >> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/ > >> seems quiet.... Even has GPS > >> > >> so many projects with transformers... > >> > > It seems a Halfbridge converter would be a good fit > > > > With 5V it's easy to drive, with high frequency the number of turns will > > be low. Increase efficiency by splitting the winding, maybe add external > > inductor for resonant LLC operation > > > > Drive it from a microcontroller with 50 duty to avoid output inductor or > > do a phase shifted Halfbridge to be able to regulate the voltage if needed > > -- > > Klaus > Something like this is actually probably good enough, there won't be > large load variations: > > <https://sound-au.com/articles/smps-f15.gif> > > The nice thing about some GreenPAK devices is they have two sets of > output pins, one rated to +5.5 and one rated to +12, with independent > Vccs. So the thing can start up off +5 and then an aux winding can feed > the +12 rail to drive the high-side transistor.if you have 12V, IR2153 ?
Reply by ●September 21, 20212021-09-21
On 21/09/2021 23.22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> tirsdag den 21. september 2021 kl. 23.06.29 UTC+2 skrev bitrex: >> On 9/21/2021 3:51 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote: >>> 21.09.21 08:32, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 20 Sep 2021 17:45:12 -0400) it happened bitrex >>>> <us...@example.net> wrote in <Jh72J.114246$Kv2....@fx47.iad>: >>>> >>>>> Is it possible to take your standard Baxandall and tap the capacitor, >>>>> take an aux winding off the secondary and feed a somewhat higher DC >>>>> voltage to the cap (through the usual two-diode supply handoff >>>>> arrangement), and use it to feed the gate drive to the transistors as >>>>> well, which would be clocked rather than self-oscillating. >>>>> >>>>> The goal would be to have a quiet step-up converter that could do say >>>>> 5 to ~150 in one step, or maybe with a single multiplier stage. That >>>>> seems hard to do with anything off the shelf as compact pulse >>>>> transformers with the appropriate turns ratio don't seem to be really >>>>> available, you get into CFL-type transformers whose ratios are too >>>>> large, but there might be something appropriate with a third winding >>>>> to bootstrap the primary swing >>>> >>>> High ratio transformers are easy with UI or E cores >>>> I wind the small ones with thin seundary on the dremel... >>>> Just count... >>>> http://panteltje.com/pub/home_made_1_to_33_hv_transformer_img_3096.jpg >>>> >>>> 12V DC to approx 440 Vpp 20 to 44 kHz: >>>> http://panteltje.com/pub/ultrasonic_antifouling_bigger_transformer_IMG_5179.JPG >>>> >>>> http://panteltje.com/pub/ultrasonic_anti_fouling_test_board_IMG_5135.JPG >>>> >>>> Not to mention all the TV high voltage flyback stuff.. >>>> and what a little BC107 or so can do: >>>> http://panteltje.com/pub/new_transformer_test_setup_img_3153.jpg >>>> >>>> Have no fear of transformers.... >>>> http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_supply_with_regulator_img_3175.jpg >>>> http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_supply_componet_side_img_3180.jpg >>>> >>>> This uses a standard 1:10 audio? transformer flyback to power a GMtube: >>>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/ >>>> seems quiet.... Even has GPS >>>> >>>> so many projects with transformers... >>>> >>> It seems a Halfbridge converter would be a good fit >>> >>> With 5V it's easy to drive, with high frequency the number of turns will >>> be low. Increase efficiency by splitting the winding, maybe add external >>> inductor for resonant LLC operation >>> >>> Drive it from a microcontroller with 50 duty to avoid output inductor or >>> do a phase shifted Halfbridge to be able to regulate the voltage if needed >>> -- >>> Klaus >> Something like this is actually probably good enough, there won't be >> large load variations: >> >> <https://sound-au.com/articles/smps-f15.gif> >> >> The nice thing about some GreenPAK devices is they have two sets of >> output pins, one rated to +5.5 and one rated to +12, with independent >> Vccs. So the thing can start up off +5 and then an aux winding can feed >> the +12 rail to drive the high-side transistor. > > if you have 12V, IR2153 ? >Yes, that is self-running. But not easy to trim if you need to
Reply by ●September 21, 20212021-09-21
On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 2:16:41 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 17:45:12 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > >Is it possible to take your standard Baxandall and tap the capacitor, > >take an aux winding off the secondary and feed a somewhat higher DC > >voltage to the cap (through the usual two-diode supply handoff > >arrangement), and use it to feed the gate drive to the transistors as > >well, which would be clocked rather than self-oscillating. > > > >The goal would be to have a quiet step-up converter that could do say 5 > >to ~150 in one step, or maybe with a single multiplier stage. That seems > >hard to do with anything off the shelf as compact pulse transformers > >with the appropriate turns ratio don't seem to be really available, you > >get into CFL-type transformers whose ratios are too large, but there > >might be something appropriate with a third winding to bootstrap the > >primary swing > Here is a sine oscillator. > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/wqygdxrcr2egxsv/AGC_Sine_Osc.jpg?raw-1 > > The output amplitude is very stable with time and temperature. The > voltage at the collector is reliably 2xV+ p-p. > > I invented this when I was a kid, still in college. It was used in the > Boresight Alignment Kit for the C5A.For a rather undemanding understanding of "very stable". None of Vbe, saturation Vce, and current gain aren't all that stable. Seriously stable stuff demodulates the output - carefully - compares it with a good quality voltage reference and twiddles the loop gain to keep the output amplitude where you want it -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●September 21, 20212021-09-21
On 9/21/2021 9:10 PM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 2:16:41 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 17:45:12 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>> Is it possible to take your standard Baxandall and tap the capacitor, >>> take an aux winding off the secondary and feed a somewhat higher DC >>> voltage to the cap (through the usual two-diode supply handoff >>> arrangement), and use it to feed the gate drive to the transistors as >>> well, which would be clocked rather than self-oscillating. >>> >>> The goal would be to have a quiet step-up converter that could do say 5 >>> to ~150 in one step, or maybe with a single multiplier stage. That seems >>> hard to do with anything off the shelf as compact pulse transformers >>> with the appropriate turns ratio don't seem to be really available, you >>> get into CFL-type transformers whose ratios are too large, but there >>> might be something appropriate with a third winding to bootstrap the >>> primary swing >> Here is a sine oscillator. >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/wqygdxrcr2egxsv/AGC_Sine_Osc.jpg?raw-1 >> >> The output amplitude is very stable with time and temperature. The >> voltage at the collector is reliably 2xV+ p-p. >> >> I invented this when I was a kid, still in college. It was used in the >> Boresight Alignment Kit for the C5A. > > For a rather undemanding understanding of "very stable". None of Vbe, saturation Vce, and current gain aren't all that stable. > > Seriously stable stuff demodulates the output - carefully - compares it with a good quality voltage reference and twiddles the loop gain to keep the output amplitude where you want it >For high step-ups at low powers with isolation I like the idea of an isolated Cuk too. Not as quiet as driving sines, but has the benefit of a continuous input current. And the transformer turns ratio doesn't need to be large to get a large step-up so off-the-shelf components should be easy to find. Lots of variations of the non-isolated Cuk online but seemingly not as much about the isolated kind.
Reply by ●September 22, 20212021-09-22
On a sunny day (Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:00:03 -0700) it happened John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in <jndkkgh4hgtrjf8tpe0ontrbrjuhk1kl6j@4ax.com>:>And this is a heat-sunk air core inductor, wound on a Sharpie pen. > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/o2hz6oi08agzdy8/T850_Inductor.JPG?raw=1That soldering has me a bit worried...
Reply by ●September 22, 20212021-09-22
On Wednesday, 22 September 2021 at 07:35:07 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:00:03 -0700) it happened John Larkin > <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in > <jndkkgh4hgtrjf8tp...@4ax.com>: > >And this is a heat-sunk air core inductor, wound on a Sharpie pen. > > > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/o2hz6oi08agzdy8/T850_Inductor.JPG?raw=1 > That soldering has me a bit worried...The pad looks like a lot of thickness for heat to go through. Soldering it at a few points to pads would heatsink it and make it more robust.
Reply by ●September 22, 20212021-09-22
On Tuesday, 21 September 2021 at 10:31:52 UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:05:03 -0700 (PDT), "ke...@ > <ke...@...> wrote: > > >... > >> Here is a sine oscillator. > >> > >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/wqygdxrcr2egxsv/AGC_Sine_Osc.jpg?raw-1 > >> > >> The output amplitude is very stable with time and temperature. The > >> voltage at the collector is reliably 2xV+ p-p. > >> > >> I invented this when I was a kid, still in college. It was used in the > >> Boresight Alignment Kit for the C5A. > >>... > > > >That configuration is usually known as a Reinartz oscillator. It has been commonly used as a self-oscillating mixer in transistor radios since the mid nineteen-fifties. > > > >In the common implementation the resonant tank is on the secondary rather than the collector to give some isolation from variation of transistor parameters and improve stability. > > > >https://www.electronics-notes.com/images/transistor-radio-self-oscillating-mixer-ferrite-rod-antenna.png > > > >kw > My circuit is clearly different. It's way simpler and has a built-in > AGC system that precisely controls oscillation amplitude.The circuit I linked is a complete front-end showing a common use. Most of the other components are related to that , not for the basic oscillator. The only fundamental difference is the placement of the tank on the primary rather than the better position on the secondary. The only way your circuit reduces the number of components is by scrimping on biasing components. Your circuit doesn't have any compensation for component variations or the operating current. It also does not have AGC, it relies upon saturation of the transistor to limit the oscillation amplitude. As Phil Hobbs mentions his book that is not the ideal way to control the amplitude of an oscillator and comes with side effects that reduce the quality of the output. kw ...
Reply by ●September 22, 20212021-09-22
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 06:33:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:>On a sunny day (Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:00:03 -0700) it happened John Larkin ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in ><jndkkgh4hgtrjf8tpe0ontrbrjuhk1kl6j@4ax.com>: > >>And this is a heat-sunk air core inductor, wound on a Sharpie pen. >> >>https://www.dropbox.com/s/o2hz6oi08agzdy8/T850_Inductor.JPG?raw=1 > >That soldering has me a bit worried...That's one of my iterations. Production units are prettier. But it's perfectly reliable. -- Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still; but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was always most valuable when he had lost it.
