I have a trick on-topic question, looking for possibilities for candidates for a 16-pin SMD device that has these pin outs identified so far: 1 & 16 - RC oscillator 4 - ground 7 & 8 - drivers for a "H" style MOSFet set of four transistors that between them generate a modified sine wave running at 60Hz and 120V. So it is NOT a TI SG3524/3525 chip. The MOSFets generate the power from the output of a small 12V to 120VAC switching transformer which generates the raw 120VDC or so source for the modified sine wave output. The transformer also appears to be driven by the IC in question above via another pair of MOSFets. Or it may simply be a relaxation oscillator with feedback whose job is simply to keep the output at 120VDC load or no load. If overloaded I expect is simply shuts down. Why am I doing this you may ask? I want to identify the IC so I can make the output frequency adjustable without changing the output voltage - this has applications in my jukebox field you see... Why not simply make my own adjustable inverter? Well, this unit is cheap, already in a package with a fan, and is rather common I suspect - so easy for me to buy up a few to see if there actually is a market for my idea. If there isn't I'm only out a few hours of time and a few hundred dollars at most in parts. If this works then I'll go the design route and make something chat I can scrape the numbers off... Thanks for any suggestions of ICs to consider, John :-#)#
Trying to identify SMD with label scrubbed off - PWM, inverter, 100W 12VDC to 120VAC modified sine wave
Started by ●August 5, 2021
Reply by ●August 6, 20212021-08-06
On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 18:05:45 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> wrote:> >I have a trick on-topic question, looking for possibilities for >candidates for a 16-pin SMD device that has these pin outs identified so >far: > >1 & 16 - RC oscillator > >4 - ground > >7 & 8 - drivers for a "H" style MOSFet set of four transistors that >between them generate a modified sine wave running at 60Hz and 120V. > >So it is NOT a TI SG3524/3525 chip. > >The MOSFets generate the power from the output of a small 12V to 120VAC >switching transformer which generates the raw 120VDC or so source for >the modified sine wave output. The transformer also appears to be driven >by the IC in question above via another pair of MOSFets. Or it may >simply be a relaxation oscillator with feedback whose job is simply to >keep the output at 120VDC load or no load. If overloaded I expect is >simply shuts down. > >Why am I doing this you may ask? > >I want to identify the IC so I can make the output frequency adjustable >without changing the output voltage - this has applications in my >jukebox field you see... > >Why not simply make my own adjustable inverter? Well, this unit is >cheap, already in a package with a fan, and is rather common I suspect - >so easy for me to buy up a few to see if there actually is a market for >my idea. If there isn't I'm only out a few hours of time and a few >hundred dollars at most in parts. If this works then I'll go the design >route and make something chat I can scrape the numbers off... > >Thanks for any suggestions of ICs to consider, > >John :-#)#Freescale has 16-pin PICs with two-pin oscillators hanging around that end of the package. Usually 15-16, though. What's the surrounding unit's branding/model number? RL
Reply by ●August 6, 20212021-08-06
On 2021/08/05 9:25 p.m., legg wrote:> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 18:05:45 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> > wrote: > >> >> I have a trick on-topic question, looking for possibilities for >> candidates for a 16-pin SMD device that has these pin outs identified so >> far: >> >> 1 & 16 - RC oscillator >> >> 4 - ground >> >> 7 & 8 - drivers for a "H" style MOSFet set of four transistors that >> between them generate a modified sine wave running at 60Hz and 120V. >> >> So it is NOT a TI SG3524/3525 chip. >> >> The MOSFets generate the power from the output of a small 12V to 120VAC >> switching transformer which generates the raw 120VDC or so source for >> the modified sine wave output. The transformer also appears to be driven >> by the IC in question above via another pair of MOSFets. Or it may >> simply be a relaxation oscillator with feedback whose job is simply to >> keep the output at 120VDC load or no load. If overloaded I expect is >> simply shuts down. >> >> Why am I doing this you may ask? >> >> I want to identify the IC so I can make the output frequency adjustable >> without changing the output voltage - this has applications in my >> jukebox field you see... >> >> Why not simply make my own adjustable inverter? Well, this unit is >> cheap, already in a package with a fan, and is rather common I suspect - >> so easy for me to buy up a few to see if there actually is a market for >> my idea. If there isn't I'm only out a few hours of time and a few >> hundred dollars at most in parts. If this works then I'll go the design >> route and make something chat I can scrape the numbers off... >> >> Thanks for any suggestions of ICs to consider, >> >> John :-#)# > > Freescale has 16-pin PICs with two-pin oscillators hanging > around that end of the package. Usually 15-16, though. > > What's the surrounding unit's branding/model number? > > RL >I've posted a photo of the board here: https://www.flippers.com/images/delete/Unknown_IC_Inverter.jpg https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i2/549707315/O1CN01CJTBv023uJnP9GHP1_!!549707315.jpg Turns out to be Feihong's logo. Never heard of them...but lets find an English product line to see if they make 16 pin SMD inverter ICs... Thanks, John :-#)#
Reply by ●August 6, 20212021-08-06
On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:19:47 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> wrote:> >On 2021/08/05 9:25 p.m., legg wrote: >> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 18:05:45 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> I have a trick on-topic question, looking for possibilities for >>> candidates for a 16-pin SMD device that has these pin outs identified so >>> far: >>> >>> 1 & 16 - RC oscillator >>> >>> 4 - ground >>> >>> 7 & 8 - drivers for a "H" style MOSFet set of four transistors that >>> between them generate a modified sine wave running at 60Hz and 120V. >>> >>> So it is NOT a TI SG3524/3525 chip. >>> >>> The MOSFets generate the power from the output of a small 12V to 120VAC >>> switching transformer which generates the raw 120VDC or so source for >>> the modified sine wave output. The transformer also appears to be driven >>> by the IC in question above via another pair of MOSFets. Or it may >>> simply be a relaxation oscillator with feedback whose job is simply to >>> keep the output at 120VDC load or no load. If overloaded I expect is >>> simply shuts down. >>> >>> Why am I doing this you may ask? >>> >>> I want to identify the IC so I can make the output frequency adjustable >>> without changing the output voltage - this has applications in my >>> jukebox field you see... >>> >>> Why not simply make my own adjustable inverter? Well, this unit is >>> cheap, already in a package with a fan, and is rather common I suspect - >>> so easy for me to buy up a few to see if there actually is a market for >>> my idea. If there isn't I'm only out a few hours of time and a few >>> hundred dollars at most in parts. If this works then I'll go the design >>> route and make something chat I can scrape the numbers off... >>> >>> Thanks for any suggestions of ICs to consider, >>> >>> John :-#)# >> >> Freescale has 16-pin PICs with two-pin oscillators hanging >> around that end of the package. Usually 15-16, though. >> >> What's the surrounding unit's branding/model number? >> >> RL >> > >I've posted a photo of the board here: > >https://www.flippers.com/images/delete/Unknown_IC_Inverter.jpg > >https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i2/549707315/O1CN01CJTBv023uJnP9GHP1_!!549707315.jpg > >Turns out to be Feihong's logo. Never heard of them...but lets find an >English product line to see if they make 16 pin SMD inverter ICs... > >Thanks, > >John :-#)#'Modified' sine wave output ? 2step, 4step or full pwm? Logo on the box? The unregulated DC-DC, 12-120v section can survive without any energy storage, except for capacitors and leakage, but I see no attempt to filter the full bridge output. EG Microelectronics offers a demo board (1" x 2") that includes hv gate drivers to produce dedicated low frequency full bridge sine power. Anything higher is aimed at an audio market. There are many variable frequency motor drivers that don't depend on sinusoidal waveforms. RL
Reply by ●August 6, 20212021-08-06
On 2021/08/06 1:56 p.m., legg wrote:> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:19:47 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> > wrote: > >> >> On 2021/08/05 9:25 p.m., legg wrote: >>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 18:05:45 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> I have a trick on-topic question, looking for possibilities for >>>> candidates for a 16-pin SMD device that has these pin outs identified so >>>> far: >>>> >>>> 1 & 16 - RC oscillator >>>> >>>> 4 - ground >>>> >>>> 7 & 8 - drivers for a "H" style MOSFet set of four transistors that >>>> between them generate a modified sine wave running at 60Hz and 120V. >>>> >>>> So it is NOT a TI SG3524/3525 chip. >>>> >>>> The MOSFets generate the power from the output of a small 12V to 120VAC >>>> switching transformer which generates the raw 120VDC or so source for >>>> the modified sine wave output. The transformer also appears to be driven >>>> by the IC in question above via another pair of MOSFets. Or it may >>>> simply be a relaxation oscillator with feedback whose job is simply to >>>> keep the output at 120VDC load or no load. If overloaded I expect is >>>> simply shuts down. >>>> >>>> Why am I doing this you may ask? >>>> >>>> I want to identify the IC so I can make the output frequency adjustable >>>> without changing the output voltage - this has applications in my >>>> jukebox field you see... >>>> >>>> Why not simply make my own adjustable inverter? Well, this unit is >>>> cheap, already in a package with a fan, and is rather common I suspect - >>>> so easy for me to buy up a few to see if there actually is a market for >>>> my idea. If there isn't I'm only out a few hours of time and a few >>>> hundred dollars at most in parts. If this works then I'll go the design >>>> route and make something chat I can scrape the numbers off... >>>> >>>> Thanks for any suggestions of ICs to consider, >>>> >>>> John :-#)# >>> >>> Freescale has 16-pin PICs with two-pin oscillators hanging >>> around that end of the package. Usually 15-16, though. >>> >>> What's the surrounding unit's branding/model number? >>> >>> RL >>> >> >> I've posted a photo of the board here: >> >> https://www.flippers.com/images/delete/Unknown_IC_Inverter.jpg >> >> https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i2/549707315/O1CN01CJTBv023uJnP9GHP1_!!549707315.jpg >> >> Turns out to be Feihong's logo. Never heard of them...but lets find an >> English product line to see if they make 16 pin SMD inverter ICs... >> >> Thanks, >> >> John :-#)# > > 'Modified' sine wave output ?Square wave output, but spaced apart - the cheapest modified sine wave using a H-Bridge.> > 2step, 4step or full pwm?2 step I guess. Something not unlike this YT video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rl7LgiZpqs Scoping the output gives something like this: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wGxI0UGy_DM/UZiOJEf4UeI/AAAAAAAAEJ4/7Ei7qCfW5vQ/s1600/expected+modified+waveform.png> > Logo on the box?Bapdas Model MT-MX150W> > The unregulated DC-DC, 12-120v section can survive without > any energy storage, except for capacitors and leakage, but I > see no attempt to filter the full bridge output.The output has a PTC to reduce inrush current, that is the only protection or filter. The output MOSFets instead of driving a transformer, drive the 110V output directly in alternating pairs, and I assume the on time is> > EG Microelectronics offers a demo board (1" x 2") > that includes hv gate drivers to produce dedicated > low frequency full bridge sine power. > > Anything higher is aimed at an audio market. > > There are many variable frequency motor drivers that > don't depend on sinusoidal waveforms. > > RL >As I said I'd much rather take something already built and modify it for small runs, rather than have to design and build - which may be more fun, but isn't cost effective. John :-#)#
Reply by ●August 7, 20212021-08-07
On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:05:40 AM UTC+10, John Robertson wrote:> On 2021/08/06 1:56 p.m., legg wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:19:47 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> > > wrote: > > > >> > >> On 2021/08/05 9:25 p.m., legg wrote: > >>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 18:05:45 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> > >>> wrote:<snip>> > 'Modified' sine wave output ? > Square wave output, but spaced apart - the cheapest modified sine wave > using a H-Bridge. > > > > 2step, 4step or full pwm? > 2 step I guess. > > Something not unlike this YT video: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rl7LgiZpqsModified sine has intervals of zero current between the positive current and the negative current, so not like that.> Scoping the output gives something like this: > > https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wGxI0UGy_DM/UZiOJEf4UeI/AAAAAAAAEJ4/7Ei7qCfW5vQ/s1600/expected+modified+waveform.pngLike that. The point is that if the current is zero for one third of the time, positive for one third of the time and negative for one third of the time, the third harmonic content of the waveform will be zero and the fifth and - to a lesser extent - the seventh harmonic content is relatively small. Higher harmonics aren't reduced much at all I'd call it a three step waveform. It's high for one third of the period, low for one third of the period and zero between them for one sixth of the period, twice per period. It's well known. You can do better - Don Lancaster's magic sine waves - but it gets messy. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●August 7, 20212021-08-07
The Slowman fool puked: =====================>> > The point is that if the current is zero for one third of the time, > positive for one third of the time and negative for one third of the time,** Not how real "mod sine" inverters operate. There are two requirements on such devices: 1. Output the normal supply peak voltage. 2. Output the normal supply RMS voltage. Using these two, the "off" time must be 50%. Using only 33% would result in incandescent lamps failing in seconds. .... Phil
Reply by ●August 7, 20212021-08-07
On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 1:56:14 PM UTC+10, palli...@gmail.com wrote:> The Slowman fool puked: > ===================== > >> > > The point is that if the current is zero for one third of the time, > > positive for one third of the time and negative for one third of the time, > ** Not how real "mod sine" inverters operate. > There are two requirements on such devices: > > 1. Output the normal supply peak voltage. > > 2. Output the normal supply RMS voltage. > > Using these two, the "off" time must be 50%. > > Using only 33% would result in incandescent lamps failing in seconds.The standard modified sine wave has an off time of 33% and doesn't blow up incandescent lamps. A regular 240V rms sine wave has a peak voltage of 377V. A modified sine wave would produce 240V rms if the "on" voltages were +/-294 volts. If you want to rectify the output (which would be an odd thing to with an inverter) you might set the "on" voltages as high +/-377V. I don't know what kind of half-wits you have been dealing with, but you clearly haven't done much thinking about how this gear is used. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●August 7, 20212021-08-07
On 2021/08/06 8:28 p.m., Anthony William Sloman wrote:> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:05:40 AM UTC+10, John Robertson wrote: >> On 2021/08/06 1:56 p.m., legg wrote: >>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:19:47 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 2021/08/05 9:25 p.m., legg wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 18:05:45 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> >>>>> wrote: > > <snip> >>> 'Modified' sine wave output ? >> Square wave output, but spaced apart - the cheapest modified sine wave >> using a H-Bridge. >>> >>> 2step, 4step or full pwm? >> 2 step I guess. >> >> Something not unlike this YT video: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rl7LgiZpqs > > Modified sine has intervals of zero current between the positive current and the negative current, so not like that. > >> Scoping the output gives something like this: >> >> https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wGxI0UGy_DM/UZiOJEf4UeI/AAAAAAAAEJ4/7Ei7qCfW5vQ/s1600/expected+modified+waveform.png > > Like that. The point is that if the current is zero for one third of the time, positive for one third of the time and negative for one third of the time, the third harmonic content of the waveform will be zero and the fifth and - to a lesser extent - the seventh harmonic content is relatively small. Higher harmonics aren't reduced much at all > > I'd call it a three step waveform. It's high for one third of the period, low for one third of the period and zero between them for one sixth of the period, twice per period. > > It's well known. You can do better - Don Lancaster's magic sine waves - but it gets messy. >Yes, I'm sure I could do better, but this may be very low volume so I figured just modify an existing design. The idea here is to modify the frequency to change the speed of a synchronous motor perhaps 10 to 15% at most. I see Don Lancaster's name all over the place. Have his TTL and CMOS Cookbooks - a great help when I was starting out - clever guy who writes clearly. If the device proves popular then I will design something appropriate and make a cute box, etc. John :-#)#
Reply by ●August 7, 20212021-08-07
The Slowman fuckwit PUKED : =========================> > > > > The point is that if the current is zero for one third of the time, > > > positive for one third of the time and negative for one third of the time, > > ** Not how real "mod sine" inverters operate. > > There are two requirements on such devices: > > > > 1. Output the normal supply peak voltage. > > > > 2. Output the normal supply RMS voltage. > > > > Using these two, the "off" time must be 50%. > > > > Using only 33% would result in incandescent lamps failing in seconds. > The standard modified sine wave has an off time of 33% and doesn't blow up incandescent lamps. > > A regular 240V rms sine wave has a peak voltage of 377V.** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!> A modified sine wave would produce 240V rms if the "on" voltages were +/-294 volts.** Absurd & insane crap.> If you want to rectify the output (which would be an odd thing to with an inverter) you might set the "on" voltages as high +/-377V.** Same INSANE error.> I don't know what kind of half-wits you have been dealing with,** I'm dealing with a FUCKING MASSIVE one right now !! FYI : you raving NUT CASE 240V rms sine = 340 V peak 340 V continuous = double power with a resistive load. 340 V at 50% duty cycle = same as 240 V rms sine Fucking Chemistry Freak. ..... Phil
