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PID Controller Design for Ventilator

Started by Ricketty C August 15, 2020
On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Aug 2020 08:13:04 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricketty C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<1dd215d5-ecd0-4314-a29b-f5aacbab0760o@googlegroups.com>:

>On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Aug 2020 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricketty >C >> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >> <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com>: >> >> > >> >He shows the only difference between patient triggered and machine triggered >> >>waveforms is the negative pressure from the patient trying to draw air in >> >>at the very start of the cycle. His diagrams are pretty poor with no registration >> >>between the various points on different parameters, but he gets across >> >the main points. You can do a Google search to find other much better >> >diagrams. I don't think there are any new concepts to an engineer. >> >> No experience with these things >> but from _my_ life I know breathing is related to oxygen level in the blood. >> >For example, when I try biking very fast I need deeper and more often breathing >> >than when I am pressing buttons on a mouse or keyboard and sitting still. >> In the 'overall loop' one should measure oxygen level in the blood >> and based on that pump more or less air, there is where your loop is. >> Compare it to those funny thermostats mounted outside that control the heating >inside >> I have seen those, never the correct temperature inside... >> Measure where you want it controlled, not somewhere else. >> I would not want to be on a machine that without the oxygen level feedback >was just pumping >> me, could be vary dangerous. >> Very important with people with covid-19 related changing lung damage. > >Your post is very confusing. > >If the heat comes on so hard it sets the house on fire, maybe you should have >a controller that prevents that even if the bedroom is not quite warm enough. > > >The vent is concerned with getting air into the lungs without causing damage >to the lungs. Setting the volume goals of the machine is up to the operator >who is monitoring the patient's O2 levels. > >If there is a problem with getting the O2 from the air in your lungs into your >blood stream, perhaps you would not want a person monitoring the machine >and just allow it to inflate your chest like a balloon causing embolisms and >death. The machine controls aspects that are appropriate for the machine >to control. More complex factors are controlled by a trained human. > >I appreciate that you have designed many control systems and I value your input. > But you don't understand the problem fully.
Well, OK, but I want the 'operator' out. An operator 24/7 is fatal if he does not pay attention. The amount of air and its oxygen percentage (assuming it can also mix in extra oxygen) is something that must be checked breath by breath, try it ! It is not as simple as a pumping in - out . That said with over 20,000 fatal medical mistakes made in Germany alone each year https://www.thelocal.de/20140121/more-die-from-hospital-mistakes-than-on-roads automating what counts is interesting. Best of luck with it.
On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:53:41 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
<0873449a-f166-4870-8f42-ab58457963a2o@googlegroups.com>:

>s=C3=B8ndag den 16. august 2020 kl. 16.31.14 UTC+2 skrev Jan Panteltje: >> On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Aug 2020 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricketty >C >> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >> <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com>: >> >> > >> >He shows the only difference between patient triggered and machine triggered >> >>waveforms is the negative pressure from the patient trying to draw air in >> >>at the very start of the cycle. His diagrams are pretty poor with no registration >> >>between the various points on different parameters, but he gets across >> >the main points. You can do a Google search to find other much better >> >diagrams. I don't think there are any new concepts to an engineer. >> >> No experience with these things >> but from _my_ life I know breathing is related to oxygen level in the blood. > >not >really, your breathing is mostly related to the amount of CO2 in your lungs >that's >why breathing something like pure nitrogen will kill you without you >even >noticing
OK, measure that then!
On 8/16/2020 10:30 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Aug 2020 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricketty C > <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in > <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com>: > >> >> He shows the only difference between patient triggered and machine triggered >> waveforms is the negative pressure from the patient trying to draw air in >> at the very start of the cycle. His diagrams are pretty poor with no registration >> between the various points on different parameters, but he gets across >> the main points. You can do a Google search to find other much better >> diagrams. I don't think there are any new concepts to an engineer. > > No experience with these things > but from _my_ life I know breathing is related to oxygen level in the blood. > For example, when I try biking very fast I need deeper and more often breathing > than when I am pressing buttons on a mouse or keyboard and sitting still. > In the 'overall loop' one should measure oxygen level in the blood > and based on that pump more or less air, there is where your loop is. > Compare it to those funny thermostats mounted outside that control the heating inside > I have seen those, never the correct temperature inside... > Measure where you want it controlled, not somewhere else. > I would not want to be on a machine that without the oxygen level feedback was just pumping > me, could be vary dangerous. > Very important with people with covid-19 related changing lung damage. > > >
In supportive ventilation the patient triggers the inhale, the autonomic nervous system is still working 100% and knows when to take a breath. I don't think you'd do forced ventilation in a covid-19 illness situation, that's for when the patient is in a coma or deeply sedated or something.
On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Aug 2020 13:18:50 -0400) it happened bitrex
<user@example.net> wrote in <YTd_G.54136$Ml5.8963@fx24.iad>:

>On 8/16/2020 10:30 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Aug 2020 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricketty C >> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >> <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com>: >> >>> >>> He shows the only difference between patient triggered and machine triggered >>> waveforms is the negative pressure from the patient trying to draw air in >>> at the very start of the cycle. His diagrams are pretty poor with no registration >>> between the various points on different parameters, but he gets across >>> the main points. You can do a Google search to find other much better >>> diagrams. I don't think there are any new concepts to an engineer. >> >> No experience with these things >> but from _my_ life I know breathing is related to oxygen level in the blood. >> For example, when I try biking very fast I need deeper and more often breathing >> than when I am pressing buttons on a mouse or keyboard and sitting still. >> In the 'overall loop' one should measure oxygen level in the blood >> and based on that pump more or less air, there is where your loop is. >> Compare it to those funny thermostats mounted outside that control the heating inside >> I have seen those, never the correct temperature inside... >> Measure where you want it controlled, not somewhere else. >> I would not want to be on a machine that without the oxygen level feedback was just pumping >> me, could be vary dangerous. >> Very important with people with covid-19 related changing lung damage. >> >> >> > >In supportive ventilation the patient triggers the inhale, the autonomic >nervous system is still working 100% and knows when to take a breath. > >I don't think you'd do forced ventilation in a covid-19 illness >situation, that's for when the patient is in a coma or deeply sedated or >something.
May well be they do that if the patient is in a really bad conditiuon due ot lung damage?
Flagrant troll...

-- 
bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail > Subject: Re: PID Controller Design for Ventilator > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > References: <bf481c40-1e60-47b5-8f23-cc7ecf85cf74o@googlegroups.com> <Ku2_G.176842$575.70404@fx38.iad> <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com> <rhbfv9$1uir$1@gioia.aioe.org> <0873449a-f166-4870-8f42-ab58457963a2o@googlegroups.com> <v7jijf9m4ilgeava2mr5oouoi3nd4qei1t@4ax.com> <2d7e3449-b06a-4d4e-a6c9-927bebc29747o@googlegroups.com> <evkijf591qvmeh6mq2ps62ltkcibmld0u7@4ax.com> > From: bitrex <user@example.net> > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > In-Reply-To: <evkijf591qvmeh6mq2ps62ltkcibmld0u7@4ax.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > Content-Language: en-US > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Lines: 41 > Message-ID: <7gd_G.48895$tL.17666@fx15.iad> > X-Complaints-To: abuse@frugalusenet.com > NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 16:36:19 UTC > Organization: frugalusenet - www.frugalusenet.com > Bytes: 3048 > Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:36:20 -0400 > X-Received-Bytes: 3099 > X-Received-Body-CRC: 2568028508 > > On 8/16/2020 11:48 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 08:33:12 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen >> <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: >> >>> s&#2013265927;&#2013266167;ndag den 16. august 2020 kl. 17.14.22 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com: >>>> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:53:41 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen >>>> <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> s?ndag den 16. august 2020 kl. 16.31.14 UTC+2 skrev Jan Panteltje: >>>>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Aug 2020 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricketty C >>>>>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >>>>>> <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> He shows the only difference between patient triggered and machine triggered >>>>>>> waveforms is the negative pressure from the patient trying to draw air in >>>>>>> at the very start of the cycle. His diagrams are pretty poor with no registration >>>>>>> between the various points on different parameters, but he gets across >>>>>>> the main points. You can do a Google search to find other much better >>>>>>> diagrams. I don't think there are any new concepts to an engineer. >>>>>> >>>>>> No experience with these things >>>>>> but from _my_ life I know breathing is related to oxygen level in the blood. >>>>> >>>>> not really, your breathing is mostly related to the amount of CO2 in your lungs >>>>> that's why breathing something like pure nitrogen will kill you without you >>>>> even noticing >>>> >>>> I wonder how many old ladies ricky's team plans to kill, trying to >>>> learn PIDs and stuff. >>>> >>> >>> I very much doubt they'll be allowed to hook anything living up to a ventilator hacked together by amateurs, no matter how well-meaning they are >>> >>> seems like an exercise in feeling like they are "doing something" >> >> Exactly. I've seen this sort of thing before, a bunch of amateurs who >> plan to Save The World. >> > > Me too. and they always seem to make Jared Kushner the team lead. > >
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:14:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:53:41 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse >Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in ><0873449a-f166-4870-8f42-ab58457963a2o@googlegroups.com>: > >>s=C3=B8ndag den 16. august 2020 kl. 16.31.14 UTC+2 skrev Jan Panteltje: >>> On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Aug 2020 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricketty >>C >>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >>> <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com>: >>> >>> > >>> >He shows the only difference between patient triggered and machine triggered >>> >>>waveforms is the negative pressure from the patient trying to draw air in >>> >>>at the very start of the cycle. His diagrams are pretty poor with no registration >>> >>>between the various points on different parameters, but he gets across >>> >the main points. You can do a Google search to find other much better >>> >diagrams. I don't think there are any new concepts to an engineer. >>> >>> No experience with these things >>> but from _my_ life I know breathing is related to oxygen level in the blood. >> >>not >>really, your breathing is mostly related to the amount of CO2 in your lungs >>that's >>why breathing something like pure nitrogen will kill you without you >>even >>noticing > >OK, measure that then!
I we are going to have capital punishment, nitrogen sounds like the way to do it to me. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc Science teaches us to doubt. Claude Bernard
s&oslash;ndag den 16. august 2020 kl. 20.03.34 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:14:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje > <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:53:41 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse > >Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in > ><0873449a-f166-4870-8f42-ab58457963a2o@googlegroups.com>: > > > >>s=C3=B8ndag den 16. august 2020 kl. 16.31.14 UTC+2 skrev Jan Panteltje: > >>> On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Aug 2020 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricketty > >>C > >>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in > >>> <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com>: > >>> > >>> > > >>> >He shows the only difference between patient triggered and machine triggered > >>> > >>>waveforms is the negative pressure from the patient trying to draw air in > >>> > >>>at the very start of the cycle. His diagrams are pretty poor with no registration > >>> > >>>between the various points on different parameters, but he gets across > >>> >the main points. You can do a Google search to find other much better > >>> >diagrams. I don't think there are any new concepts to an engineer. > >>> > >>> No experience with these things > >>> but from _my_ life I know breathing is related to oxygen level in the blood. > >> > >>not > >>really, your breathing is mostly related to the amount of CO2 in your lungs > >>that's > >>why breathing something like pure nitrogen will kill you without you > >>even > >>noticing > > > >OK, measure that then! > > I we are going to have capital punishment, nitrogen sounds like the > way to do it to me. >
there was a TV program about years ago, the hardliners did not like the idea of capital punishment being a quiet painless death possibly in euphoria
On 8/16/2020 1:32 PM, John Doe wrote:
> Flagrant troll... >
Sorry that there don't seem to be any other team-lead positions for team do-nothing available for you at the moment, I think they're full-up.
On 8/16/2020 2:37 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> s&oslash;ndag den 16. august 2020 kl. 20.03.34 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com: >> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:14:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje >> <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:53:41 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse >>> Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in >>> <0873449a-f166-4870-8f42-ab58457963a2o@googlegroups.com>: >>> >>>> s=C3=B8ndag den 16. august 2020 kl. 16.31.14 UTC+2 skrev Jan Panteltje: >>>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Aug 2020 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricketty >>>> C >>>>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >>>>> <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com>: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> He shows the only difference between patient triggered and machine triggered >>>>> >>>>> waveforms is the negative pressure from the patient trying to draw air in >>>>> >>>>> at the very start of the cycle. His diagrams are pretty poor with no registration >>>>> >>>>> between the various points on different parameters, but he gets across >>>>>> the main points. You can do a Google search to find other much better >>>>>> diagrams. I don't think there are any new concepts to an engineer. >>>>> >>>>> No experience with these things >>>>> but from _my_ life I know breathing is related to oxygen level in the blood. >>>> >>>> not >>>> really, your breathing is mostly related to the amount of CO2 in your lungs >>>> that's >>>> why breathing something like pure nitrogen will kill you without you >>>> even >>>> noticing >>> >>> OK, measure that then! >> >> I we are going to have capital punishment, nitrogen sounds like the >> way to do it to me. >> > > there was a TV program about years ago, the hardliners did not like > the idea of capital punishment being a quiet painless death possibly > in euphoria >
A "Christian Nation" that regularly uses capital punishment is an odd concept. In Singapore they just hang the condemned; it's quick and cheap and they don't worry too much about whether when they violate some Abrahamic commandment, which they don't have, that they should at least be nicer about breaking it, so they may go about their business afterwards secure in the knowledge they are still good Christians in the eyes of God. like the first Commandment actually says "Thou shalt not kill, except if..."
The definition of a hypocrite, preaching what it does not believe in...

-- 
bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail > Subject: Re: PID Controller Design for Ventilator > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > References: <bf481c40-1e60-47b5-8f23-cc7ecf85cf74o@googlegroups.com> <Ku2_G.176842$575.70404@fx38.iad> <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com> <rhbfv9$1uir$1@gioia.aioe.org> <0873449a-f166-4870-8f42-ab58457963a2o@googlegroups.com> <rhbpid$aim$1@gioia.aioe.org> <i4tijfpgmocd67d1b46sl6hmud35nurg74@4ax.com> <a679f353-5c4d-455c-b9ba-5d17a1b1a6f8o@googlegroups.com> > From: bitrex <user@example.net> > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > In-Reply-To: <a679f353-5c4d-455c-b9ba-5d17a1b1a6f8o@googlegroups.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > Content-Language: en-US > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Lines: 56 > Message-ID: <7Uf_G.131804$GQ4.50601@fx02.iad> > X-Complaints-To: abuse@frugalusenet.com > NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:35:31 UTC > Organization: frugalusenet - www.frugalusenet.com > Bytes: 3479 > Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:35:31 -0400 > X-Received-Bytes: 3530 > X-Received-Body-CRC: 3064816523 > > On 8/16/2020 2:37 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: >> s&#2013265927;&#2013266167;ndag den 16. august 2020 kl. 20.03.34 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com: >>> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:14:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje >>> <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:53:41 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse >>>> Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in >>>> <0873449a-f166-4870-8f42-ab58457963a2o@googlegroups.com>: >>>> >>>>> s=C3=B8ndag den 16. august 2020 kl. 16.31.14 UTC+2 skrev Jan Panteltje: >>>>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Aug 2020 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricketty >>>>> C >>>>>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >>>>>> <d2d879c1-cf13-42f8-9727-8ef27dc2dc65o@googlegroups.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> He shows the only difference between patient triggered and machine triggered >>>>>> >>>>>> waveforms is the negative pressure from the patient trying to draw air in >>>>>> >>>>>> at the very start of the cycle. His diagrams are pretty poor with no registration >>>>>> >>>>>> between the various points on different parameters, but he gets across >>>>>>> the main points. You can do a Google search to find other much better >>>>>>> diagrams. I don't think there are any new concepts to an engineer. >>>>>> >>>>>> No experience with these things >>>>>> but from _my_ life I know breathing is related to oxygen level in the blood. >>>>> >>>>> not >>>>> really, your breathing is mostly related to the amount of CO2 in your lungs >>>>> that's >>>>> why breathing something like pure nitrogen will kill you without you >>>>> even >>>>> noticing >>>> >>>> OK, measure that then! >>> >>> I we are going to have capital punishment, nitrogen sounds like the >>> way to do it to me. >>> >> >> there was a TV program about years ago, the hardliners did not like >> the idea of capital punishment being a quiet painless death possibly >> in euphoria >> > > A "Christian Nation" that regularly uses capital punishment is an odd > concept. > > In Singapore they just hang the condemned; it's quick and cheap and they > don't worry too much about whether when they violate some Abrahamic > commandment, which they don't have, that they should at least be nicer > about breaking it, so they may go about their business afterwards secure > in the knowledge they are still good Christians in the eyes of God. like > the first Commandment actually says "Thou shalt not kill, except if..." > >