On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 12:05:35 AM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 14:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund > <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 8:26:08 PM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 19:53:10 +0200, Jeroen Belleman > >> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: > >> > >> >On 2020-06-20 18:28, John S wrote: > >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royer_oscillator.gif > >> >> > >> >> I think the transformer phasing dots are wrong. Or, am I wrong? > >> > > >> >What an awful schematic diagram. I think you are right, the > >> >phasing dots are wrong. > >> > > >> >Jeroen Belleman > >> > >> The base current has to come from the two (two? why?) resistors from > > > >Not correct. The resistors are only there for kick starting the royer. One branch will have lower Vbe, so that BJT is turned on first, positive feedback turns it on fully > > > >The base drive winding delivers all the base current needed after startup > > > >> the transformer ct. There are better ways. > >> > >Please show a better solution. I am willing to bet that you cannot find a better solution. > > Not in that circuit. The base current can only come from those > resistors to V+. >Most designs has a diode to GND to protect reverse bias of the diodes. But, it works anyway, during turn off of the other BJT, current is drawn out of the base which helps turn on of the other, aided by the resistors as you mention> A better design would center-tap the base winding, and only get a > little startup current from V+. Even better, use mosfets. >MOSFETs at high voltage are expensive for the same equivalent conduction voltage> This is my version, back in ancient times when I made CD ignitions for > sports cars and motorcycles. > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/iin7435mgrya5gy/CD_Ign_DCDC.JPG?dl=0 > > R1 supplies a little startup current, and R2 provides the serious base > drive. >That is copied from Billings book, figure 2.15.1 from 1989. No offense, but I am betting it is not your design. Nothing wrong with copying, getting inspired. I do that all the time, just don't pretend you dreamed it up Some times one comes up with the same circuits. I am doing Active EMI design right now, and got a circuit I was pleased with. Then a little later I found the same on IEEE> How much was that bet? >I do not see it is simpler in any way or better (less a diode to base/GND) Cheers Klaus
Royer oscillator - phasing dots
Started by ●June 20, 2020
Reply by ●June 20, 20202020-06-20
Reply by ●June 20, 20202020-06-20
On 6/20/2020 5:23 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 7:51:09 PM UTC+2, bitrex wrote: >> On 6/20/2020 12:28 PM, John S wrote: >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royer_oscillator.gif >>> >>> I think the transformer phasing dots are wrong. Or, am I wrong? >> >> Right transistor collector pulls down, right transistor base gets pushed >> up, the other vice-versa, looks like positive feedback to me? > > It has to be positive feedback. The royer works with collapsing magnetic field in saturationYes, that's what I was saying> This page is correct: > > https://www.smps.us/inverters.html > > Cheers > > Klaus >
Reply by ●June 20, 20202020-06-20
On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 16:20:30 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:>On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 12:05:35 AM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 14:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund >> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 8:26:08 PM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 19:53:10 +0200, Jeroen Belleman >> >> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >> >> >> >> >On 2020-06-20 18:28, John S wrote: >> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royer_oscillator.gif >> >> >> >> >> >> I think the transformer phasing dots are wrong. Or, am I wrong? >> >> > >> >> >What an awful schematic diagram. I think you are right, the >> >> >phasing dots are wrong. >> >> > >> >> >Jeroen Belleman >> >> >> >> The base current has to come from the two (two? why?) resistors from >> > >> >Not correct. The resistors are only there for kick starting the royer. One branch will have lower Vbe, so that BJT is turned on first, positive feedback turns it on fully >> > >> >The base drive winding delivers all the base current needed after startup >> > >> >> the transformer ct. There are better ways. >> >> >> >Please show a better solution. I am willing to bet that you cannot find a better solution. >> >> Not in that circuit. The base current can only come from those >> resistors to V+. >> >Most designs has a diode to GND to protect reverse bias of the diodes. But, it works anyway, during turn off of the other BJT, current is drawn out of the base which helps turn on of the other, aided by the resistors as you mention > >> A better design would center-tap the base winding, and only get a >> little startup current from V+. Even better, use mosfets. >> > >MOSFETs at high voltage are expensive for the same equivalent conduction voltage > >> This is my version, back in ancient times when I made CD ignitions for >> sports cars and motorcycles. >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/iin7435mgrya5gy/CD_Ign_DCDC.JPG?dl=0 >> >> R1 supplies a little startup current, and R2 provides the serious base >> drive. >> >That is copied from Billings book, figure 2.15.1 from 1989. No offense, but I am betting it is not your design. Nothing wrong with copying, getting inspired. I do that all the time, just don't pretend you dreamed it upI invented that myself, in about 1970. You are being offensive. And defensive. If the load is shorted, as can happen in an SCR-based CD ignition, it can be designed to beta limit, stop oscillating, and not fry the transistors. But once oscillation starts back up, there's tons of base drive. It's fairly subtle.> >Some times one comes up with the same circuits. I am doing Active EMI design right now, and got a circuit I was pleased with. Then a little later I found the same on IEEE > >> How much was that bet? >> > >I do not see it is simpler in any way or better (less a diode to base/GND)I suppose you don't see it. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc Science teaches us to doubt. Claude Bernard
Reply by ●June 20, 20202020-06-20
On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 1:37:59 AM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 16:20:30 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund > <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 12:05:35 AM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 14:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund > >> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> >On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 8:26:08 PM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 19:53:10 +0200, Jeroen Belleman > >> >> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >On 2020-06-20 18:28, John S wrote: > >> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royer_oscillator.gif > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I think the transformer phasing dots are wrong. Or, am I wrong? > >> >> > > >> >> >What an awful schematic diagram. I think you are right, the > >> >> >phasing dots are wrong. > >> >> > > >> >> >Jeroen Belleman > >> >> > >> >> The base current has to come from the two (two? why?) resistors from > >> > > >> >Not correct. The resistors are only there for kick starting the royer. One branch will have lower Vbe, so that BJT is turned on first, positive feedback turns it on fully > >> > > >> >The base drive winding delivers all the base current needed after startup > >> > > >> >> the transformer ct. There are better ways. > >> >> > >> >Please show a better solution. I am willing to bet that you cannot find a better solution. > >> > >> Not in that circuit. The base current can only come from those > >> resistors to V+. > >> > >Most designs has a diode to GND to protect reverse bias of the diodes. But, it works anyway, during turn off of the other BJT, current is drawn out of the base which helps turn on of the other, aided by the resistors as you mention > > > >> A better design would center-tap the base winding, and only get a > >> little startup current from V+. Even better, use mosfets. > >> > > > >MOSFETs at high voltage are expensive for the same equivalent conduction voltage > > > >> This is my version, back in ancient times when I made CD ignitions for > >> sports cars and motorcycles. > >> > >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/iin7435mgrya5gy/CD_Ign_DCDC.JPG?dl=0 > >> > >> R1 supplies a little startup current, and R2 provides the serious base > >> drive. > >> > >That is copied from Billings book, figure 2.15.1 from 1989. No offense, but I am betting it is not your design. Nothing wrong with copying, getting inspired. I do that all the time, just don't pretend you dreamed it up > > I invented that myself, in about 1970. You are being offensive. And > defensive.Yeah, maybe the wording was a bit harsh. Sorry for that, just wrote it as I saw it> > If the load is shorted, as can happen in an SCR-based CD ignition, it > can be designed to beta limit, stop oscillating, and not fry the > transistors. But once oscillation starts back up, there's tons of base > drive. It's fairly subtle. >When the Royer Jensen is shorted, it just goes to higher frequency, it auto protects. For the Royer the frequency falls at higher load. The Royer is sensitive to temperature since it operates at the BH knee. The Jensen fixes that, and is a lot more stable design where the saturation is defined by a non-loaded xformer Cheers Klaus
Reply by ●June 20, 20202020-06-20
On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 17:04:22 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:>On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 1:37:59 AM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 16:20:30 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund >> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 12:05:35 AM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 14:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund >> >> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 8:26:08 PM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 19:53:10 +0200, Jeroen Belleman >> >> >> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >On 2020-06-20 18:28, John S wrote: >> >> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royer_oscillator.gif >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I think the transformer phasing dots are wrong. Or, am I wrong? >> >> >> > >> >> >> >What an awful schematic diagram. I think you are right, the >> >> >> >phasing dots are wrong. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Jeroen Belleman >> >> >> >> >> >> The base current has to come from the two (two? why?) resistors from >> >> > >> >> >Not correct. The resistors are only there for kick starting the royer. One branch will have lower Vbe, so that BJT is turned on first, positive feedback turns it on fully >> >> > >> >> >The base drive winding delivers all the base current needed after startup >> >> > >> >> >> the transformer ct. There are better ways. >> >> >> >> >> >Please show a better solution. I am willing to bet that you cannot find a better solution. >> >> >> >> Not in that circuit. The base current can only come from those >> >> resistors to V+. >> >> >> >Most designs has a diode to GND to protect reverse bias of the diodes. But, it works anyway, during turn off of the other BJT, current is drawn out of the base which helps turn on of the other, aided by the resistors as you mention >> > >> >> A better design would center-tap the base winding, and only get a >> >> little startup current from V+. Even better, use mosfets. >> >> >> > >> >MOSFETs at high voltage are expensive for the same equivalent conduction voltage >> > >> >> This is my version, back in ancient times when I made CD ignitions for >> >> sports cars and motorcycles. >> >> >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/iin7435mgrya5gy/CD_Ign_DCDC.JPG?dl=0 >> >> >> >> R1 supplies a little startup current, and R2 provides the serious base >> >> drive. >> >> >> >That is copied from Billings book, figure 2.15.1 from 1989. No offense, but I am betting it is not your design. Nothing wrong with copying, getting inspired. I do that all the time, just don't pretend you dreamed it up >> >> I invented that myself, in about 1970. You are being offensive. And >> defensive. > >Yeah, maybe the wording was a bit harsh. Sorry for that, just wrote it as I saw it >> >> If the load is shorted, as can happen in an SCR-based CD ignition, it >> can be designed to beta limit, stop oscillating, and not fry the >> transistors. But once oscillation starts back up, there's tons of base >> drive. It's fairly subtle. >> > >When the Royer Jensen is shorted, it just goes to higher frequency, it auto protects. For the Royer the frequency falls at higher load.If you just stuff in base current, from resistors to V+, the transistors fry. My circuit allows independent tuning of oscillating and not-oscillating base current. The usual CD ignition inverter from that time didn't have the diode; it had a 2-resistor divider from V+/gnd to the base winding CT. It was halfway to being a good solution, but had temperature issues. Surely other people invented the same diode-based circuit; it's pretty obvious. 50 mJ is a nice fat spark. The bike fires up at first kick. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc Science teaches us to doubt. Claude Bernard
Reply by ●June 21, 20202020-06-21
On 2020-06-20, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royer_oscillator.gif > > I think the transformer phasing dots are wrong. Or, am I wrong?You're right! It's also not a Royer, the inductor on the feed makes it a Baxandall. the original post by "The Lightning Stalker" was superior to this revision. -- Jasen.
Reply by ●June 21, 20202020-06-21
On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 3:18:56 AM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 17:04:22 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund > <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 1:37:59 AM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 16:20:30 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund > >> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> >On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 12:05:35 AM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 14:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund > >> >> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 8:26:08 PM UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 19:53:10 +0200, Jeroen Belleman > >> >> >> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >On 2020-06-20 18:28, John S wrote: > >> >> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royer_oscillator.gif > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I think the transformer phasing dots are wrong. Or, am I wrong? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >What an awful schematic diagram. I think you are right, the > >> >> >> >phasing dots are wrong. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >Jeroen Belleman > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The base current has to come from the two (two? why?) resistors from > >> >> > > >> >> >Not correct. The resistors are only there for kick starting the royer. One branch will have lower Vbe, so that BJT is turned on first, positive feedback turns it on fully > >> >> > > >> >> >The base drive winding delivers all the base current needed after startup > >> >> > > >> >> >> the transformer ct. There are better ways. > >> >> >> > >> >> >Please show a better solution. I am willing to bet that you cannot find a better solution. > >> >> > >> >> Not in that circuit. The base current can only come from those > >> >> resistors to V+. > >> >> > >> >Most designs has a diode to GND to protect reverse bias of the diodes. But, it works anyway, during turn off of the other BJT, current is drawn out of the base which helps turn on of the other, aided by the resistors as you mention > >> > > >> >> A better design would center-tap the base winding, and only get a > >> >> little startup current from V+. Even better, use mosfets. > >> >> > >> > > >> >MOSFETs at high voltage are expensive for the same equivalent conduction voltage > >> > > >> >> This is my version, back in ancient times when I made CD ignitions for > >> >> sports cars and motorcycles. > >> >> > >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/iin7435mgrya5gy/CD_Ign_DCDC.JPG?dl=0 > >> >> > >> >> R1 supplies a little startup current, and R2 provides the serious base > >> >> drive. > >> >> > >> >That is copied from Billings book, figure 2.15.1 from 1989. No offense, but I am betting it is not your design. Nothing wrong with copying, getting inspired. I do that all the time, just don't pretend you dreamed it up > >> > >> I invented that myself, in about 1970. You are being offensive. And > >> defensive. > > > >Yeah, maybe the wording was a bit harsh. Sorry for that, just wrote it as I saw it > >> > >> If the load is shorted, as can happen in an SCR-based CD ignition, it > >> can be designed to beta limit, stop oscillating, and not fry the > >> transistors. But once oscillation starts back up, there's tons of base > >> drive. It's fairly subtle. > >> > > > >When the Royer Jensen is shorted, it just goes to higher frequency, it auto protects. For the Royer the frequency falls at higher load. > > If you just stuff in base current, from resistors to V+, the > transistors fry. My circuit allows independent tuning of oscillating > and not-oscillating base current. >The frequency is dependent on ferrite saturation. So primarily input voltage, temperature, spread of ferrite ur Cheers Klaus
Reply by ●June 21, 20202020-06-21
On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 04:06:24 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:>On 2020-06-20, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royer_oscillator.gif >> >> I think the transformer phasing dots are wrong. Or, am I wrong? > >You're right! > >It's also not a Royer, the inductor on the feed makes it a Baxandall. >the original post by "The Lightning Stalker" was superior to this >revision.That circuit image was posted once, corrected twice, and still won't work. There is *so* much bad electronics around. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc Science teaches us to doubt. Claude Bernard
Reply by ●June 21, 20202020-06-21
On 6/20/2020 11:06 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:> On 2020-06-20, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royer_oscillator.gif >> >> I think the transformer phasing dots are wrong. Or, am I wrong? > > You're right! > > It's also not a Royer, the inductor on the feed makes it a Baxandall. > the original post by "The Lightning Stalker" was superior to this > revision. > >Thanks, Jason et al
Reply by ●June 21, 20202020-06-21
On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 11:28:04 -0500, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royer_oscillator.gif > >I think the transformer phasing dots are wrong. Or, am I wrong?Phasing dots are correct in the diagram. RL
