Steve Wilson posted more bullshit wrote: --------------------------------------> > John Larkin > > > Here's possibly the only curve like this ever posted online: > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4wwttdgqycz9rv/Alum_Leakage_63u.JPG?raw=1 > > See Fig. 4(b) on Page 2 in > > https://jianghai-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/8-Jianghai-Europe-E-Cap- > Leakage-Current-AAL-2018-09-18.pdf > > The curves are exponential. >** FFS - you dopey autistic wanker !! Those alleged "curves" were drawn with a pen partially *circling* a round lid or coin. The paper is of *low* quality - almost real information free. Pure Google fodder. Like you. .... Phil
Film capacitor as power-supply filter
Started by ●October 7, 2019
Reply by ●October 17, 20192019-10-17
Reply by ●October 17, 20192019-10-17
On 10/16/2019 6:48 PM, John Larkin wrote:> On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:28:02 -0700, John Larkin > <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:03:19 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison >> <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Phil Allison wrote: >>> >>> ------------------------ >>> >>> >>>> This link give a bit more detail to an non-simple situation. >>> >>> >>> ** Oops - see same link JL posted. >>> >>> >>> >>> .... Phil >> >> I might just measure a couple of electrolytic caps. I think the >> leakage jumps radically a bit past the reform voltage. >> >> Here's some data on some other caps. >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/dlet57gmlntxx9h/Ccap_Leakage.JPG?dl=0 >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/euxh4uzhoeft249/Polymer_Leakage.jpg?dl=0 >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/fq70y6vy854k8y8/Supercap_Leakage.JPG?dl=0 >> >> They all curve up! The polymer leakage data is entangled with its time >> behavior, sort of a reform or dielectric absorption thing. > > Here's possibly the only curve like this ever posted online: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4wwttdgqycz9rv/Alum_Leakage_63u.JPG?raw=1 > > The data is crude, because there is reforming and dielectric > absorption going on, and I don't have a month to play with this. But > the curve is clearly radically upward. Not a zener, more like an MOV. > > The current is very noisy above maybe 70 volts. I see what looks like > brief high current spikes. >Great info! Thanks, John.
Reply by ●October 17, 20192019-10-17
On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 05:44:51 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> Here's possibly the only curve like this ever posted online: > >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4wwttdgqycz9rv/Alum_Leakage_63u.JPG?raw=1 > >See Fig. 4(b) on Page 2 in > >https://jianghai-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/8-Jianghai-Europe-E-Cap- >Leakage-Current-AAL-2018-09-18.pdf > >The curves are exponential.That fig 4b is an obvious made-up cartoon. It's certainly not exponential. And it has no numbers. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●October 17, 20192019-10-17
On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 06:15:30 -0500, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:>On 10/16/2019 6:48 PM, John Larkin wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:28:02 -0700, John Larkin >> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:03:19 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison >>> <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Phil Allison wrote: >>>> >>>> ------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>>> This link give a bit more detail to an non-simple situation. >>>> >>>> >>>> ** Oops - see same link JL posted. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> .... Phil >>> >>> I might just measure a couple of electrolytic caps. I think the >>> leakage jumps radically a bit past the reform voltage. >>> >>> Here's some data on some other caps. >>> >>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/dlet57gmlntxx9h/Ccap_Leakage.JPG?dl=0 >>> >>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/euxh4uzhoeft249/Polymer_Leakage.jpg?dl=0 >>> >>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/fq70y6vy854k8y8/Supercap_Leakage.JPG?dl=0 >>> >>> They all curve up! The polymer leakage data is entangled with its time >>> behavior, sort of a reform or dielectric absorption thing. >> >> Here's possibly the only curve like this ever posted online: >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4wwttdgqycz9rv/Alum_Leakage_63u.JPG?raw=1 >> >> The data is crude, because there is reforming and dielectric >> absorption going on, and I don't have a month to play with this. But >> the curve is clearly radically upward. Not a zener, more like an MOV. >> >> The current is very noisy above maybe 70 volts. I see what looks like >> brief high current spikes. >> > > >Great info! Thanks, John.Quite welcome. It's good to have some real numbers on (one) real cap. I was impressed by how noisy the current is. There's stuff going on inside. I think it was Werner Von Braun who said "One experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions." -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●October 17, 20192019-10-17
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 11:02:13 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 05:44:51 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> > wrote: > > >John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > >> Here's possibly the only curve like this ever posted online: > > > >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4wwttdgqycz9rv/Alum_Leakage_63u.JPG?raw=1 > > > >See Fig. 4(b) on Page 2 in > > > >https://jianghai-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/8-Jianghai-Europe-E-Cap- > >Leakage-Current-AAL-2018-09-18.pdf > > > >The curves are exponential. > > That fig 4b is an obvious made-up cartoon. It's certainly not > exponential. And it has no numbers.Ditto on the thanks. The Tardin article mentions that the caps behave like they have a zener diode in parallel... So having the current look like noisy zener current above the 'threshold' makes some sense. Years ago I charge an Al eletro to ~1/2 the max voltage, left it on my bench for the weekend and came back to see the voltage had only dropped by ~10% or so. It would be fun to hook one up to an electrometer and let it sit there for a week or whatever and record the voltage. George H.> > > > > -- > > John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc > > lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●October 17, 20192019-10-17
On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 08:53:25 -0700 (PDT), George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:>On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 11:02:13 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 05:44:51 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> >> wrote: >> >> >John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Here's possibly the only curve like this ever posted online: >> > >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4wwttdgqycz9rv/Alum_Leakage_63u.JPG?raw=1 >> > >> >See Fig. 4(b) on Page 2 in >> > >> >https://jianghai-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/8-Jianghai-Europe-E-Cap- >> >Leakage-Current-AAL-2018-09-18.pdf >> > >> >The curves are exponential. >> >> That fig 4b is an obvious made-up cartoon. It's certainly not >> exponential. And it has no numbers. >Ditto on the thanks. >The Tardin article mentions that the caps behave like they have a >zener diode in parallel... So having the current look like noisy >zener current above the 'threshold' makes some sense. > >Years ago I charge an Al eletro to ~1/2 the max voltage, left it >on my bench for the weekend and came back to see the voltage had >only dropped by ~10% or so. It would be fun to hook one up >to an electrometer and let it sit there for a week or whatever >and record the voltage. > >George H.Or just check it with a DVM now and then. I did that with a supercap for a few months. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●October 17, 20192019-10-17
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 05:44:51 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> > wrote:>>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:>>> Here's possibly the only curve like this ever posted online:>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4wwttdgqycz9rv/Alum_Leakage_63u.JPG?raw=1>>See Fig. 4(b) on Page 2 in>>https://jianghai-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/8-Jianghai-Europe-E-Cap- >>Leakage-Current-AAL-2018-09-18.pdf>>The curves are exponential.> That fig 4b is an obvious made-up cartoon. It's certainly not > exponential. And it has no numbers.The curve is exponential over the portion that is increasing. Every capacitor will be different, so if you want the curve for your particular capacitor, you have to measure it.
Reply by ●October 17, 20192019-10-17
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 08:53:25 -0700 (PDT), George Herold > <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > >>On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 11:02:13 AM UTC-4, >>jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 05:44:51 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Here's possibly the only curve like this ever posted online: >>> > >>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4wwttdgqycz9rv/Alum_Leakage_63u.JPG?raw=1 >>> > >>> >See Fig. 4(b) on Page 2 in >>> > >>> >https://jianghai-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/8-Jianghai-Europe-E-Cap >>> >- Leakage-Current-AAL-2018-09-18.pdf >>> > >>> >The curves are exponential. >>> >>> That fig 4b is an obvious made-up cartoon. It's certainly not >>> exponential. And it has no numbers. >>Ditto on the thanks. >>The Tardin article mentions that the caps behave like they have a >>zener diode in parallel... So having the current look like noisy >>zener current above the 'threshold' makes some sense. >> >>Years ago I charge an Al eletro to ~1/2 the max voltage, left it >>on my bench for the weekend and came back to see the voltage had >>only dropped by ~10% or so. It would be fun to hook one up >>to an electrometer and let it sit there for a week or whatever >>and record the voltage. >> >>George H. > > Or just check it with a DVM now and then. I did that with a supercap > for a few months.That's why you need a bleeder resistor for higher voltages.
Reply by ●October 17, 20192019-10-17
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> Quite welcome. It's good to have some real numbers on (one) real cap.Yor data is valid for that capacitor only. Every cap will be different. There are many different electrolytes with different characteristics, such as non-solid borax or organic, non-solid water-based, solid manganese dioxide, solid conducting polymer, non-solid hybrid electrolyte, etc., and the leakage characteristics will be different for each type. See Wikipedia, "Aluminum electrolytic capacitor", at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_electrolytic_capacitor
Reply by ●October 17, 20192019-10-17
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:24:20 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 08:53:25 -0700 (PDT), George Herold > <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > > >On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 11:02:13 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 05:44:51 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> >John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Here's possibly the only curve like this ever posted online: > >> > > >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4wwttdgqycz9rv/Alum_Leakage_63u.JPG?raw=1 > >> > > >> >See Fig. 4(b) on Page 2 in > >> > > >> >https://jianghai-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/8-Jianghai-Europe-E-Cap- > >> >Leakage-Current-AAL-2018-09-18.pdf > >> > > >> >The curves are exponential. > >> > >> That fig 4b is an obvious made-up cartoon. It's certainly not > >> exponential. And it has no numbers. > >Ditto on the thanks. > >The Tardin article mentions that the caps behave like they have a > >zener diode in parallel... So having the current look like noisy > >zener current above the 'threshold' makes some sense. > > > >Years ago I charge an Al eletro to ~1/2 the max voltage, left it > >on my bench for the weekend and came back to see the voltage had > >only dropped by ~10% or so. It would be fun to hook one up > >to an electrometer and let it sit there for a week or whatever > >and record the voltage. > > > >George H. > > Or just check it with a DVM now and then. I did that with a supercap > for a few months.Right... I think I used the trick of putting a Gig ohm in series with my DMM and dividing by 100. I'd bet it can't be exponential* 'all the way down' at some point there'll be some other constant (resistive) leakage path. Hey are tant's any better than Al-electros. At my ppoe I made this triangle wave generator, current source into a cap, milli second to kilo second periods. I used a 100uF tant for the longest times... seemed to work fine.. but I only 'really' measured the longest times once. (otherwise just made sure it went up and down.) George H. *does exponential imply some thermal mechanism?> > > > -- > > John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc > > lunatic fringe electronics
