Need schematic for a 100 megawatt audio amplifier

mandag den 12. november 2018 kl. 23.11.56 UTC+1 skrev Jon Elson:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 07:50:41 -0800, doh wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 00:59:17 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
> > 
> >>On 11/10/2018 11:39 PM, guitar-lead@myband.com wrote:
> >>> Need schematic for a 100 megawatt audio amplifier using vacuum tubes.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>You might have to compromise a bit and run it class B though. I hope
> >>that's alright. It'll sound okay in the cheap seats but true audiophiles
> >>won't be impressed.
> > 
> >  I don't think the neighbors would be impressed, either.
> 
> Ummm, maybe not "impressed", but I'd bet they'd be "blown away" - 
> literally!
> 
> In a more practical vein, let's see, the biggest tubes I know about are 
> something like the 4CX100,000, so you'd need to parallel something like
> 1000 of these tubes to deliver that power.  These tubes cost something 
> like $50,000 or maybe $100K each, so that's 100 Million right there.  The 
> output transformer would be the size of a utility substation transformer, 
> but wound with Litz wire, so you'd have to radically up the cost.  It 
> would have a HELL of a turns ratio, for 18KV on the plates and 8 Ohm 
> output.  So, the output would be bus bars several feet square, I'd think.
> Can't imagine what a voice coil for that would look like.
> 
> Also, the plate cooling system would be plenty impressive.
> 
> At the National Superconducting Cyclotron Center, they run 2 big 
> cyclotrons together, and the plate supply is 42-46 A at 18,000 V.  
> (That's roughly 3/4 megawatt.)  It certainly impresses the HELL out of me!
> 
> Jon

https://www.cpii.com/docs/datasheets/78/8974.pdf

says it'll do 2MW AF in class AB 

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:11:46 -0600, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 07:50:41 -0800, doh wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 00:59:17 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>> 
>>>On 11/10/2018 11:39 PM, guitar-lead@myband.com wrote:
>>>> Need schematic for a 100 megawatt audio amplifier using vacuum tubes.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>You might have to compromise a bit and run it class B though. I hope
>>>that's alright. It'll sound okay in the cheap seats but true audiophiles
>>>won't be impressed.
>> 
>>  I don't think the neighbors would be impressed, either.
>
>Ummm, maybe not "impressed", but I'd bet they'd be "blown away" - 
>literally!
>
>In a more practical vein, let's see, the biggest tubes I know about are 
>something like the 4CX100,000, so you'd need to parallel something like
>1000 of these tubes to deliver that power.  These tubes cost something 
>like $50,000 or maybe $100K each, so that's 100 Million right there.  The 
>output transformer would be the size of a utility substation transformer, 
>but wound with Litz wire, so you'd have to radically up the cost.  It 
>would have a HELL of a turns ratio, for 18KV on the plates and 8 Ohm 
>output.  So, the output would be bus bars several feet square, I'd think.
>Can't imagine what a voice coil for that would look like.

If the request from the OP would have appeared 25 years earlier, it
would have been much cheaper to implement. Just take some ex-Radio
Moscow transmitters and ex-Sovjet union jammers, apply a rectifier
(envelope detector) or just use their high power AM modulator (audio)
amplifiers.These would have been cheaply available just after to
collapse of the Soviet Union.

Anyway, it is a stupid idea to build a huge power amplifier and then
use a passive crossover to drive speakers for different frequency
bands. A much better approach is to use "small" (20 MW) amplifiers to
feed speakers with only one octave range. In fact horn speakers can be
quite clean if you feed just one octave into properly dimensioned
speaker.

If the OP wouldn't be too eager to use only tubes all the way, I would
just use medium voltage (e.g. 3 kV) VFD (Variable Frequency Drives)
for the lowest octaves. Just fiddle with the feedback loop frequency
response, but otherwise some few megawatt VFDs are available off the
shelf. for the lowest octaves.

On 11/12/2018 08:42 AM, Anthony Stewart wrote:
> On Saturday, 10 November 2018 23:39:41 UTC-5, guita...@myband.com  wrote:
>> Need schematic for a 100 megawatt audio amplifier using vacuum tubes.
> 
> I recall the 1st US festival with 30 bands in San Bernadino started by Wozniak in the early 80's had a 1 Megawatt audio system. It was impressive.
> 
> With stacked 1mx1m speakers in arrays larger than a two drive-in movie screens in stereo, and it was HiFi quality.  The satellite speakers on towers had perfect delay also had a water jet on a turret to cool the audience between sets.  You would dry out in 5 minutes.  Unlike Woodstock, it was well-planned, and well-managed.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Festival#Labor_Day_Weekend,_1982
> 

For a musician unable to sing or play any instruments Ozzy has done 
pretty well for himself.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWfSyhcJyHw>

krw@notreal.com wrote in news:jijjudh0naqb67f8et5jtmpdm5pmal44rj@4ax.com:

>  there was big business in artillery tables.

From which came the ENIAC, and what we use as computers today.

  The Bomb was for decrypting the Enigma, but artillery computation desires 
are responsible for our programming roots and our hardware device roots.

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:30:08 -0800, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

> mandag den 12. november 2018 kl. 23.11.56 UTC+1 skrev Jon Elson:
>> On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 07:50:41 -0800, doh wrote:
>> 
>> > On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 00:59:17 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>> > 
>> >>On 11/10/2018 11:39 PM, guitar-lead@myband.com wrote:
>> >>> Need schematic for a 100 megawatt audio amplifier using vacuum
>> >>> tubes.
>> >>> 
>> >>> 
>> >>You might have to compromise a bit and run it class B though. I hope
>> >>that's alright. It'll sound okay in the cheap seats but true
>> >>audiophiles won't be impressed.
>> > 
>> >  I don't think the neighbors would be impressed, either.
>> 
>> Ummm, maybe not "impressed", but I'd bet they'd be "blown away" -
>> literally!
>> 
>> In a more practical vein, let's see, the biggest tubes I know about are
>> something like the 4CX100,000, so you'd need to parallel something like
>> 1000 of these tubes to deliver that power.  These tubes cost something
>> like $50,000 or maybe $100K each, so that's 100 Million right there. 
>> The output transformer would be the size of a utility substation
>> transformer, but wound with Litz wire, so you'd have to radically up
>> the cost.  It would have a HELL of a turns ratio, for 18KV on the
>> plates and 8 Ohm output.  So, the output would be bus bars several feet
>> square, I'd think. Can't imagine what a voice coil for that would look
>> like.
>> 
>> Also, the plate cooling system would be plenty impressive.
>> 
>> At the National Superconducting Cyclotron Center, they run 2 big
>> cyclotrons together, and the plate supply is 42-46 A at 18,000 V.
>> (That's roughly 3/4 megawatt.)  It certainly impresses the HELL out of
>> me!
>> 
>> Jon
> 
> https://www.cpii.com/docs/datasheets/78/8974.pdf
> 
> says it'll do 2MW AF in class AB

 That makes the 100MW tube amplifier project viable, given enough funding 
to buy all the supporting infrastructure to go along with the expense of 
the hundred and thirty two 8974/X-2159 valves (tubes) required to create 
a class B push/pull bridge output amp with 33 paralleled tubes making up 
each of the four elements in the bridge output circuit to drive your 
100MW rated 4.6 ohm speaker load directly.

 Mind you, that still leaves you with the problem of making up a bi-polar 
+/-11KVdc 4.6KA HT supply and arranging a suitable connection to the grid 
- 33 or 66KV to 11KV three phase 200MVA transformer anyone? :-)

 TBH, this looks like a project requiring the services of the "Planetary 
Engineering Corp."(tm) (Motto: "You give us the job and we'll do the 
tools.")

-- 
Johnny B Good

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 10:51:34 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

>On Sunday, 11 November 2018 04:39:41 UTC, guita...@myband.com  wrote:
>
>> Need schematic for a 100 megawatt audio amplifier using vacuum tubes.
>
>Mount the control rods on large long throw speaker coils, use the valve amp to drive those. No, won't work, steam doesn't have much frequency response. Maybe use the generators of a nuke plant in amplidyne mode. You'd need to make some custom ones to cover the higher frequencies if this is for audio - I hope it's not.

There are some thousands-of-PSI multi-horsepower hydraulic servo
valves that get into the hundreds of Hz. Hydraulic bass drivers?

I'm always impressed by big hydraulics. They move mountains, usually
with reversed mechanical advantage. But my knees work with reversed
mechanical advantage; if I lift a hundred pounds, my muscles must be
pulling tons.

I wonder why so many guys fanticize about being rock stars. Sounds
dreadful to me.






-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:53:12 GMT, Johnny B Good
<johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:30:08 -0800, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>
>> mandag den 12. november 2018 kl. 23.11.56 UTC+1 skrev Jon Elson:
>>> On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 07:50:41 -0800, doh wrote:
>>> 
>>> > On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 00:59:17 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>> > 
>>> >>On 11/10/2018 11:39 PM, guitar-lead@myband.com wrote:
>>> >>> Need schematic for a 100 megawatt audio amplifier using vacuum
>>> >>> tubes.
>>> >>> 
>>> >>> 
>>> >>You might have to compromise a bit and run it class B though. I hope
>>> >>that's alright. It'll sound okay in the cheap seats but true
>>> >>audiophiles won't be impressed.
>>> > 
>>> >  I don't think the neighbors would be impressed, either.
>>> 
>>> Ummm, maybe not "impressed", but I'd bet they'd be "blown away" -
>>> literally!
>>> 
>>> In a more practical vein, let's see, the biggest tubes I know about are
>>> something like the 4CX100,000, so you'd need to parallel something like
>>> 1000 of these tubes to deliver that power.  These tubes cost something
>>> like $50,000 or maybe $100K each, so that's 100 Million right there. 
>>> The output transformer would be the size of a utility substation
>>> transformer, but wound with Litz wire, so you'd have to radically up
>>> the cost.  It would have a HELL of a turns ratio, for 18KV on the
>>> plates and 8 Ohm output.  So, the output would be bus bars several feet
>>> square, I'd think. Can't imagine what a voice coil for that would look
>>> like.
>>> 
>>> Also, the plate cooling system would be plenty impressive.
>>> 
>>> At the National Superconducting Cyclotron Center, they run 2 big
>>> cyclotrons together, and the plate supply is 42-46 A at 18,000 V.
>>> (That's roughly 3/4 megawatt.)  It certainly impresses the HELL out of
>>> me!
>>> 
>>> Jon
>> 
>> https://www.cpii.com/docs/datasheets/78/8974.pdf
>> 
>> says it'll do 2MW AF in class AB
>
> That makes the 100MW tube amplifier project viable, given enough funding 
>to buy all the supporting infrastructure to go along with the expense of 
>the hundred and thirty two 8974/X-2159 valves (tubes) required to create 
>a class B push/pull bridge output amp with 33 paralleled tubes making up 
>each of the four elements in the bridge output circuit to drive your 
>100MW rated 4.6 ohm speaker load directly.

The interesting question is, how to make a 100 MW speaker (not just
PMPO :-). I guess you could have to use tubing for the voice coil and
run liquid nitrogen or helium through the coil to dissipate the heat.

In order to avoid the output transformer, one would have to minimize
the amplifier output impedance but still need a very high impedance
speaker. You can get the output impedance low e.g. with parallel
connected triodes. 

If you are forced to use multiple speakers, put them in series (with
some mutual resonance issues). Old OTL stages might need 1000 ohm
speakers, so it would be easy to obtain the needed load impedance.

> Mind you, that still leaves you with the problem of making up a bi-polar 
>+/-11KVdc 4.6KA HT supply and arranging a suitable connection to the grid 
>- 33 or 66KV to 11KV three phase 200MVA transformer anyone? :-)

That is the easy part. Even quite large power plant generators have
only 5-20 kV output voltages so a 10/400 kV transformer is needed to
feed the national grid. Look for a dismantled coal fired power plant
and run the transformer in reverse directly from the 400 kV national
grid.

>
> TBH, this looks like a project requiring the services of the "Planetary 
>Engineering Corp."(tm) (Motto: "You give us the job and we'll do the 
>tools.")

On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:41:03 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

>krw@notreal.com wrote in news:jijjudh0naqb67f8et5jtmpdm5pmal44rj@4ax.com:
>
>>  there was big business in artillery tables.
>
>From which came the ENIAC, and what we use as computers today.

ENIAC was originally just a manually reprogrammable calculator, only
much later it was capable of execute stored programs.

>  The Bomb was for decrypting the Enigma, but artillery computation desires 
>are responsible for our programming roots and our hardware device roots.

This was also just a preprogrammed special purpose calculator.

On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:04:40 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 10:51:34 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, 11 November 2018 04:39:41 UTC, guita...@myband.com  wrote:
>>
>>> Need schematic for a 100 megawatt audio amplifier using vacuum tubes.
>>
>>Mount the control rods on large long throw speaker coils, use the valve amp to drive those. No, won't work, steam doesn't have much frequency response. Maybe use the generators of a nuke plant in amplidyne mode. You'd need to make some custom ones to cover the higher frequencies if this is for audio - I hope it's not.
>
>There are some thousands-of-PSI multi-horsepower hydraulic servo
>valves that get into the hundreds of Hz. Hydraulic bass drivers?

There are also "digital" hydraulic valves so you do not even need a
DAC, just do the SPDIF serial/parallel conversion and control the
different bits to different size "bit" valves directly :-).

>
>I'm always impressed by big hydraulics. They move mountains, usually
>with reversed mechanical advantage. But my knees work with reversed
>mechanical advantage; if I lift a hundred pounds, my muscles must be
>pulling tons.
>
>I wonder why so many guys fanticize about being rock stars. Sounds
>dreadful to me.

On Wednesday, 14 November 2018 21:04:51 UTC, John Larkin  wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 10:51:34 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
> >On Sunday, 11 November 2018 04:39:41 UTC, guita...@myband.com  wrote:
> >
> >> Need schematic for a 100 megawatt audio amplifier using vacuum tubes.
> >
> >Mount the control rods on large long throw speaker coils, use the valve amp to drive those. No, won't work, steam doesn't have much frequency response. Maybe use the generators of a nuke plant in amplidyne mode. You'd need to make some custom ones to cover the higher frequencies if this is for audio - I hope it's not.
> 
> There are some thousands-of-PSI multi-horsepower hydraulic servo
> valves that get into the hundreds of Hz. Hydraulic bass drivers?

hydraulics are just control & gearing, but it's a way to use a cheap high power drive, the compressor.

> I'm always impressed by big hydraulics. They move mountains, usually
> with reversed mechanical advantage. But my knees work with reversed
> mechanical advantage; if I lift a hundred pounds, my muscles must be
> pulling tons.
> 
> I wonder why so many guys fanticize about being rock stars. Sounds
> dreadful to me.

Sounds great to people with no other opportunities. Not stuck in an office all day, saying yes sir yes sir for a bit above minimum wage. Most buy into the money wasted on superficial junk thing. I prefer to do something useful.


NT