Could some electronics guru here please help ? What is the best way to select a transistor for an oscillator ? Consider a Colpitts oscillator running at 5 MHz. The following are the analysis steps. 1. Select a value for the LC tank capacitor C1 = C2 = C 2. Select a load e.g., R=50 Ohm 3. To start oscillations, gmR > C2/C1. In this case gmR > 1 4. Using the oscillation frequency and the LC tank capacitance value, the inductor value is obtained. 5. Having determined gm, find the collector current using gm = Ic/VT where VT = 0.025 6. From the VCC value, the collector current limiting resistor is VCC/Ic 7. The base bias resistors are then obtained using the fact that the maximum base bias current is 0.1 times the collector current. Then the question is: how to select a transistor ? All hints/suggestions are helpful. Thanks in advance
How to select transistor for oscillator ?
Started by ●September 11, 2018
Reply by ●September 11, 20182018-09-11
1. Equal capacitors?? But C = C1*C2 / (C1+C2)? 2. Note this ignores component losses: inductor, capacitors, and transistor too. 3. To follow on from that, the reflected impedance of the base (assuming a common emitter configuration) needs to be similarly high, otherwise the tank goes thud, or insufficient signal gets to the base. Mind that, in addition to being a resonant tank and phase shift network, the CLC is also an impedance matching network. The capacitor ratio gives the voltage ratio, and therefore the impedance ratio squared, but that impedance is only valid if the capacitor impedance itself is low enough. Which is also to say, the tank Q is greater than the voltage ratio as well. 4. I would start with Zo = sqrt(L/C) and Fo = 1 / (2*pi*sqrt(L*C)) instead, where Zo is the resonant impedance, which will be Q times the equivalent total load impedance. 5. Yup, for a BJT of course; and for anything else, whatever it is. This is minimum, of course, and probably 2-3 times more is a good idea. (The average Gm drops at large signal levels, as amplitude saturates. In this way, you could design an oscillator to continue to operate, at relatively low amplitudes, without hitting saturation in the output (collector/etc.) side.) 6. Collector limiting?? Did you mean emitter? But that wouldn't use the whole VCC, unsure. Anyway, a normal common emitter amplifier can be used here, setting, say: Vb ~ 0.2 Vcc, Vc ~ 0.6 Vcc and therefore Ve = Vb - Vbe. That's Vc if a collector resistor is used, otherwise with a choke load (which would be a tapped coil in a Hartley oscillator). Obviously, don't forget to factor Rc into the total load resistance! Note that gm = 1 / (Ic/Vth + 1/R_E), that is, r_e + R_E in the hybrid-pi model. R_E can be bypassed with a cap if desired. 7. Maximum base bias is Ic / hFE(min). Set base divider current (i.e., Vcc / (Rb1 + Rb2)) to about 10x that, to ensure the base voltage doesn't droop much. In practice, it may turn out that the base divider current is about Ic/10, but this isn't a saturated switch we're making here. :) Finally, transistor only needs fT high enough. fT is not the definition of Gm rolloff -- that requires knowing h_ie at fT -- but it is related. Typically you'll have fT > 10*Fo. Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/ <dakupoto@gmail.com> wrote in message news:6d89d386-eb4a-458b-b1e5-d43f8bafe714@googlegroups.com...> Could some electronics guru here please help ? > What is the best way to select a transistor > for an oscillator ? Consider a Colpitts > oscillator running at 5 MHz. The following are > the analysis steps. > 1. Select a value for the LC tank capacitor > C1 = C2 = C > 2. Select a load e.g., R=50 Ohm > 3. To start oscillations, gmR > C2/C1. In this > case gmR > 1 > 4. Using the oscillation frequency and the LC > tank capacitance value, the inductor value > is obtained. > 5. Having determined gm, find the collector > current using gm = Ic/VT where VT = 0.025 > 6. From the VCC value, the collector current > limiting resistor is VCC/Ic > 7. The base bias resistors are then obtained > using the fact that the maximum base bias > current is 0.1 times the collector current. > Then the question is: how to select a transistor ? > > All hints/suggestions are helpful. Thanks in advance
Reply by ●September 11, 20182018-09-11
On Tuesday, 11 September 2018 04:38:52 UTC+1, daku...@gmail.com wrote:> Could some electronics guru here please help ? > What is the best way to select a transistor > for an oscillator ? Consider a Colpitts > oscillator running at 5 MHz. The following are > the analysis steps. > 1. Select a value for the LC tank capacitor > C1 = C2 = C > 2. Select a load e.g., R=50 Ohm > 3. To start oscillations, gmR > C2/C1. In this > case gmR > 1 > 4. Using the oscillation frequency and the LC > tank capacitance value, the inductor value > is obtained. > 5. Having determined gm, find the collector > current using gm = Ic/VT where VT = 0.025 > 6. From the VCC value, the collector current > limiting resistor is VCC/Ic > 7. The base bias resistors are then obtained > using the fact that the maximum base bias > current is 0.1 times the collector current. > Then the question is: how to select a transistor ? > > All hints/suggestions are helpful. Thanks in advancein most cases it just needs enough gain at the chosen frequency. How much gain do you need? Other parameters sometimes matter of course. NT
Reply by ●September 11, 20182018-09-11
On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 20:38:48 -0700 (PDT), dakupoto@gmail.com wrote:>Could some electronics guru here please help ? >What is the best way to select a transistor >for an oscillator ? Consider a Colpitts >oscillator running at 5 MHz. The following are >the analysis steps. >1. Select a value for the LC tank capacitor > C1 = C2 = C >2. Select a load e.g., R=50 Ohm >3. To start oscillations, gmR > C2/C1. In this > case gmR > 1 >4. Using the oscillation frequency and the LC > tank capacitance value, the inductor value > is obtained. >5. Having determined gm, find the collector > current using gm = Ic/VT where VT = 0.025 >6. From the VCC value, the collector current > limiting resistor is VCC/Ic >7. The base bias resistors are then obtained > using the fact that the maximum base bias > current is 0.1 times the collector current. >Then the question is: how to select a transistor ? > >All hints/suggestions are helpful. Thanks in advanceMy common NPN gumdrops are BCX70 and BFS17 for faster stuff. If you care about noise, take a look at Win's table, page 501 of AOE3. It pains me that he selected BCX70 as the first/worse transistor in the list. Actually, I rarely use bipolar transistors these days. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●September 11, 20182018-09-11
On 09/11/2018 11:36 AM, John Larkin wrote:> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 20:38:48 -0700 (PDT), dakupoto@gmail.com wrote: > >> Could some electronics guru here please help ? >> What is the best way to select a transistor >> for an oscillator ? Consider a Colpitts >> oscillator running at 5 MHz. The following are >> the analysis steps. >> 1. Select a value for the LC tank capacitor >> C1 = C2 = C >> 2. Select a load e.g., R=50 Ohm >> 3. To start oscillations, gmR > C2/C1. In this >> case gmR > 1 >> 4. Using the oscillation frequency and the LC >> tank capacitance value, the inductor value >> is obtained. >> 5. Having determined gm, find the collector >> current using gm = Ic/VT where VT = 0.025 >> 6. From the VCC value, the collector current >> limiting resistor is VCC/Ic >> 7. The base bias resistors are then obtained >> using the fact that the maximum base bias >> current is 0.1 times the collector current. >> Then the question is: how to select a transistor ? >> >> All hints/suggestions are helpful. Thanks in advance > > > My common NPN gumdrops are BCX70 and BFS17 for faster stuff. > > If you care about noise, take a look at Win's table, page 501 of AOE3. > It pains me that he selected BCX70 as the first/worse transistor in > the list. > > Actually, I rarely use bipolar transistors these days. > >They're just too "unstable" HEH
Reply by ●September 11, 20182018-09-11
On 09/10/2018 11:38 PM, dakupoto@gmail.com wrote:> Could some electronics guru here please help ? > What is the best way to select a transistor > for an oscillator ? Consider a Colpitts > oscillator running at 5 MHz. The following are > the analysis steps. > 1. Select a value for the LC tank capacitor > C1 = C2 = C > 2. Select a load e.g., R=50 Ohm > 3. To start oscillations, gmR > C2/C1. In this > case gmR > 1 > 4. Using the oscillation frequency and the LC > tank capacitance value, the inductor value > is obtained. > 5. Having determined gm, find the collector > current using gm = Ic/VT where VT = 0.025 > 6. From the VCC value, the collector current > limiting resistor is VCC/Ic > 7. The base bias resistors are then obtained > using the fact that the maximum base bias > current is 0.1 times the collector current. > Then the question is: how to select a transistor ? > > All hints/suggestions are helpful. Thanks in advance >5 MHz? is a 2N3904 not good enough for some reason?
Reply by ●September 11, 20182018-09-11
On 09/11/2018 09:26 AM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:> On Tuesday, 11 September 2018 04:38:52 UTC+1, daku...@gmail.com wrote: >> Could some electronics guru here please help ? >> What is the best way to select a transistor >> for an oscillator ? Consider a Colpitts >> oscillator running at 5 MHz. The following are >> the analysis steps. >> 1. Select a value for the LC tank capacitor >> C1 = C2 = C >> 2. Select a load e.g., R=50 Ohm >> 3. To start oscillations, gmR > C2/C1. In this >> case gmR > 1 >> 4. Using the oscillation frequency and the LC >> tank capacitance value, the inductor value >> is obtained. >> 5. Having determined gm, find the collector >> current using gm = Ic/VT where VT = 0.025 >> 6. From the VCC value, the collector current >> limiting resistor is VCC/Ic >> 7. The base bias resistors are then obtained >> using the fact that the maximum base bias >> current is 0.1 times the collector current. >> Then the question is: how to select a transistor ? >> >> All hints/suggestions are helpful. Thanks in advance > > in most cases it just needs enough gain at the chosen frequency. How much gain do you need? Other parameters sometimes matter of course. > > > NT >This kind of detailed thinking is what I might go thru to build a 500 MHz oscillator, not a 5 MHz oscillator. For 5 MHz just find Colpitts schematic online it will probably use a 2N3904. select components in tank for frequency and simulate in LTSpice. Tweak values if needed. Build circuit on small slab of copper clad it will work fine 95% chance. Can be all done in the time one takes to discuss it here...
Reply by ●September 11, 20182018-09-11
On 09/11/2018 11:36 AM, John Larkin wrote:> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 20:38:48 -0700 (PDT), dakupoto@gmail.com wrote: > >> Could some electronics guru here please help ? >> What is the best way to select a transistor >> for an oscillator ? Consider a Colpitts >> oscillator running at 5 MHz. The following are >> the analysis steps. >> 1. Select a value for the LC tank capacitor >> C1 = C2 = C >> 2. Select a load e.g., R=50 Ohm >> 3. To start oscillations, gmR > C2/C1. In this >> case gmR > 1 >> 4. Using the oscillation frequency and the LC >> tank capacitance value, the inductor value >> is obtained. >> 5. Having determined gm, find the collector >> current using gm = Ic/VT where VT = 0.025 >> 6. From the VCC value, the collector current >> limiting resistor is VCC/Ic >> 7. The base bias resistors are then obtained >> using the fact that the maximum base bias >> current is 0.1 times the collector current. >> Then the question is: how to select a transistor ? >> >> All hints/suggestions are helpful. Thanks in advance > > > My common NPN gumdrops are BCX70 and BFS17 for faster stuff. > > If you care about noise, take a look at Win's table, page 501 of AOE3. > It pains me that he selected BCX70 as the first/worse transistor in > the list. > > Actually, I rarely use bipolar transistors these days. > >Unless one really need low phase noise or distortion or very high frequency or some other specific parameter from an oscillator I think detailed mathematical analysis of low-frequency oscillators is kinda a waste of time. Yeah you can do it but the circuits are nonlinear and the results are often not particularly enlightening. This is what SPICE was invented for. Amplifiers like to oscillate very much in the proper configuration and if they're in that configuration the tolerances can be pretty broad they don't need math to cajole them.
Reply by ●September 11, 20182018-09-11
On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 13:16:12 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:>On 09/11/2018 11:36 AM, John Larkin wrote: >> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 20:38:48 -0700 (PDT), dakupoto@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Could some electronics guru here please help ? >>> What is the best way to select a transistor >>> for an oscillator ? Consider a Colpitts >>> oscillator running at 5 MHz. The following are >>> the analysis steps. >>> 1. Select a value for the LC tank capacitor >>> C1 = C2 = C >>> 2. Select a load e.g., R=50 Ohm >>> 3. To start oscillations, gmR > C2/C1. In this >>> case gmR > 1 >>> 4. Using the oscillation frequency and the LC >>> tank capacitance value, the inductor value >>> is obtained. >>> 5. Having determined gm, find the collector >>> current using gm = Ic/VT where VT = 0.025 >>> 6. From the VCC value, the collector current >>> limiting resistor is VCC/Ic >>> 7. The base bias resistors are then obtained >>> using the fact that the maximum base bias >>> current is 0.1 times the collector current. >>> Then the question is: how to select a transistor ? >>> >>> All hints/suggestions are helpful. Thanks in advance >> >> >> My common NPN gumdrops are BCX70 and BFS17 for faster stuff. >> >> If you care about noise, take a look at Win's table, page 501 of AOE3. >> It pains me that he selected BCX70 as the first/worse transistor in >> the list. >> >> Actually, I rarely use bipolar transistors these days. >> >> > >They're just too "unstable" HEHBipolars are not unstable. But mosfets are usually easier to use. The last bipolar transistor circuit that I designed was in fact a Colpitts oscillator. It's a 600 MHz VCO that uses a coaxial ceramic resonator and a BFT25A. The time consuming bit was temperature compensating it; I wound up buying a reel of custom-brewed N4700 caps. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●September 11, 20182018-09-11
John Larkin wrote>Bipolars are not unstable. But mosfets are usually easier to use. > >The last bipolar transistor circuit that I designed was in fact a >Colpitts oscillator. It's a 600 MHz VCO that uses a coaxial ceramic >resonator and a BFT25A. The time consuming bit was temperature >compensating it; I wound up buying a reel of custom-brewed N4700 caps.I use bipolars all the time, Here a 2.4 Giggle Hz oscillator: http://panteltje.com/pub/2.4GHz_twisted_oscillator_IMG_3629.GIF 1.57 Giggle Hertz: http://panteltje.com/pub/GPS_jammer_board_twisted_wire_1.57GHz_oscillator_IMG_3622.GIF Think those were BFR91. These are both to some degree frequency controlled by the base current, that changes Vce and CVce and thus frequency. Anyways that was locked to the FPGA board that was locked to the Rubidium reference on the left. http://panteltje.com/pub/25MHz_lock_test_setup_IMG_3721.GIF 6 MHz xtal oscillator: http://panteltje.com/pub/6MHz_xtal_oscillator.gif For lower frequencies I of course use unijunction transistors. For even higher frequencies there are 'sjips', like this I am working on: http://panteltje.com/pub/octagon_twin_LNB_OTLSO_inside_RT320M_PLL_IMG_6538.JPG The RT320M chip is a PLL locked to a 25 MHz xtal (on the right) with an output of 390 x 25 MHz = 9.750 GHz or 426 x 25 MHz = 10.650 GHz used as local oscillator and mixer for 10.7 GHz to 12,75 GHz reception. Modifying it for 10.4 GHz, Removed the crystal from the board, here testing if it still works with crystal on thin wires on the side. Thing is small... bad PCB, tracks fall off... A tunable external reference will be connected via a connector on the bottom. http://panteltje.com/pub/octagon_LNB_crystal_removed_IMG_6546.JPG Will attempt that locking thing with this LNB too. For even higher frequencies I have some various color lasers. :-) But anyways bipolars are great, the naming here in Elektor magazine was TUP and TUN for Transistor Universal NPN and Transistor Universal PNP, BC547 BC557, also known in a smaller package as BC847 BC857 have only a Ft of 100 MHz or so, good enough for most things. I also still have an old germanium OC76 and an OC140 germanium transistor in black painted glass envelope. http://panteltje.com/pub/old_germanium_transistors_IMG_6554.JPG
