Electric start for suitcase inverter generator by using its alternator as a BLDC motor?

On Thursday, 12 July 2018 04:43:31 UTC+1, Johnny B Good  wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 06:44:02 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 02:20:36 UTC+1, Johnny B Good  wrote:

> >> I'm posting here in the hope that I can get some guidance on how to add
> >> an electric start feature to a cheap inverter generator cursed by the
> >> traditional recoil pull starter (the Devil's invention, imho).
> >> Apologies beforehand for what is a rather long initial post but I
> >> thought it best
> > 
> > 
> > You do realise that cheap gennies have very short operational lives,
> > making extensive work on them pointless. If you want something worth
> > tinkering with get a Listeroid from some 3rd world country. Tinkering is
> > not optional & they will run for a lifetime, day in day out, once fully
> > built. Listeroids also use a fraction as much fuel as modern junkboxes.
> 
>  Not quite as small a fraction as you might think.

marketing speak

> However, they can be 
> run on duty free diesel for about half the cost of a petrol/gasoline 
> generator. Indeed they're not fussy about what fuel oil you choose to run 
> them on so you have a lot more fuelling options.
> 
>  Thank you for that sage advice. I do appreciate what you're saying but 
> unfortunately, I'm not trying to live off grid and nor do I have the 
> space to install such venerable machinery. On top of which, the standard 
> generator heads typically fitted to these listeroids[1] no longer suit 
> the needs of modern day lighting and computer loadings, particularly true 
> in the case of my venerable Smartups2000 with its 9.4μF's worth of 
> capacitive loading across its mains input which sends conventional single 
> phase AVR controlled 230vac 50Hz alternators into a massive over-volting 
> state as a result.

not hard to add an inductive load to protect against capacitive loads

>  Lagging current loadings are merely the usual low power factor issue 
> without the overvolting effect on the standard AVR controlled single 
> phase alternators used in conventional generators but the slightest sniff 
> of excess leading current from just a single 3.3μF fluorescent lamp PFC 
> capacitor across the output of a 2.8KVA generator was enough to send its 
> nominal 230v north of the 275v mark. I'm sure you can appreciate the 
> problem caused by the Smartups2000 with its 9.4μF's worth across that 
> genset's output.

>  I don't expect to be running the generator for more than half a dozen 
> hours a year (monthly half hour test runs being the most likely 
> consumption of generator hours) but I like to be prepared against power 
> outages to maintain all the lighting, the CH/DHW (pump, controller and 
> zone valve), my IT kit (NAS box, desktop PC, a Gbit switch and a couple 
> of routers) along with the 4K smart TV in the living room to allow the 
> missus to watch her favourite soap operas without interruption.

sounds more pointless than I expected
Gas lighting is cheap & reliable, far more of both than any genny.

> [1] Obviously, a permanent magnet three phase alternator wired to a high 
> voltage rectifier pack and geared to produce 420vdc on no load could be 
> used to power an inverter module (in essence a bridged pair of class D 
> amps driven from a 50Hz sinewave reference signal) to get round this 
> voltage instability impediment as well as improve on the best efficiency 
> of the standard single phase alternator typically used to directly 
> generate the required 50Hz 240vac voltage supply.
> 
>  As long as the DC voltage feeding the inverter module doesn't dip below 
> 340v, it will be able to sustain the 240vac right up to its maximum rated 
> current limit, assuming of course that this doesn't exceed the three 
> phase PM alternator's maximum ratings.

that's a hard way to do a simple task.


NT

On 2018-07-11, Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote:
>  I'm posting here in the hope that I can get some guidance on how to add 
> an electric start feature to a cheap inverter generator cursed by the 
> traditional recoil pull starter (the Devil's invention, imho). Apologies 
> beforehand for what is a rather long initial post but I thought it best 
> to appraise you of my thoughts and what I know of the problems involved 
> in my proposed electronic add-on starter solution.

if it's anything like the Briggs & Stratton engines with the a similar
configuration there's a ratchet on the flywheel that disengages from
the rope pulley centrifugally. (B&S' designuses steel balls that engage
by gravity)

So you you could remove the rope pulley and modify it to take a chain
or a toothed belt instead (maybe cut it up and rivet a bicycle sprocket
on there) and then you can use whatever motor you want.

Some B&S engines also have a ring gear on the flywheel which can be
used for electric start not that this likey to be an exact clone.

-- 
     &#1578;

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:29:09 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

> On Thursday, 12 July 2018 04:43:31 UTC+1, Johnny B Good  wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 06:44:02 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 02:20:36 UTC+1, Johnny B Good  wrote:
> 
>> >> I'm posting here in the hope that I can get some guidance on how to
>> >> add an electric start feature to a cheap inverter generator cursed
>> >> by the traditional recoil pull starter (the Devil's invention,
>> >> imho). Apologies beforehand for what is a rather long initial post
>> >> but I thought it best
>> > 
>> > 
>> > You do realise that cheap gennies have very short operational lives,
>> > making extensive work on them pointless. If you want something worth
>> > tinkering with get a Listeroid from some 3rd world country. Tinkering
>> > is not optional & they will run for a lifetime, day in day out, once
>> > fully built. Listeroids also use a fraction as much fuel as modern
>> > junkboxes.
>> 
>>  Not quite as small a fraction as you might think.
> 
> marketing speak

???

> 
>> However, they can be run on duty free diesel for about half the cost of
>> a petrol/gasoline generator. Indeed they're not fussy about what fuel
>> oil you choose to run them on so you have a lot more fuelling options.
>> 
>>  Thank you for that sage advice. I do appreciate what you're saying but
>> unfortunately, I'm not trying to live off grid and nor do I have the
>> space to install such venerable machinery. On top of which, the
>> standard generator heads typically fitted to these listeroids[1] no
>> longer suit the needs of modern day lighting and computer loadings,
>> particularly true in the case of my venerable Smartups2000 with its
>> 9.4μF's worth of capacitive loading across its mains input which sends
>> conventional single phase AVR controlled 230vac 50Hz alternators into a
>> massive over-volting state as a result.
> 
> not hard to add an inductive load to protect against capacitive loads

 Yeah, I used to think that too. :-(

 Believe me, that's exactly what I tried but it failed to remedy the 
problem. In retrospect, I'd have been better off fitting a 4.7μF PFC 
capacitor to the generator to force the rotor into saturation and use an 
auto-transformer to step the resulting 280vac back down to 240vac. Once 
afflicted by a modest capacitive loading, any additional capacitance 
would have had little if any further effect (other than for the issue of 
the extra leading current being drawn). However, I'd have been placing 
additional stress on the stator windings so probably not the best of 
pragmatic solutions.

> 
>>  Lagging current loadings are merely the usual low power factor issue
>> without the overvolting effect on the standard AVR controlled single
>> phase alternators used in conventional generators but the slightest
>> sniff of excess leading current from just a single 3.3μF fluorescent
>> lamp PFC capacitor across the output of a 2.8KVA generator was enough
>> to send its nominal 230v north of the 275v mark. I'm sure you can
>> appreciate the problem caused by the Smartups2000 with its 9.4μF's
>> worth across that genset's output.
> 
>>  I don't expect to be running the generator for more than half a dozen
>> hours a year (monthly half hour test runs being the most likely
>> consumption of generator hours) but I like to be prepared against power
>> outages to maintain all the lighting, the CH/DHW (pump, controller and
>> zone valve), my IT kit (NAS box, desktop PC, a Gbit switch and a couple
>> of routers) along with the 4K smart TV in the living room to allow the
>> missus to watch her favourite soap operas without interruption.
> 
> sounds more pointless than I expected Gas lighting is cheap & reliable,
> far more of both than any genny.

 You're entitled to your opinion but I think you've rather missed the 
point of the exercise.

> 
>> [1] Obviously, a permanent magnet three phase alternator wired to a
>> high voltage rectifier pack and geared to produce 420vdc on no load
>> could be used to power an inverter module (in essence a bridged pair of
>> class D amps driven from a 50Hz sinewave reference signal) to get round
>> this voltage instability impediment as well as improve on the best
>> efficiency of the standard single phase alternator typically used to
>> directly generate the required 50Hz 240vac voltage supply.
>> 
>>  As long as the DC voltage feeding the inverter module doesn't dip
>>  below
>> 340v, it will be able to sustain the 240vac right up to its maximum
>> rated current limit, assuming of course that this doesn't exceed the
>> three phase PM alternator's maximum ratings.
> 
> that's a hard way to do a simple task.

 Not in these modern times with cheap commodity priced 'electronic 
solutions'. :-)

 BTW, why are you subscribed to SED if you deem such a solution to be "a 
hard way to do a simple task."? That view would have been valid three 
decades back when such 'complex solutions' would have required a complex 
circuit board populated with hundreds of discrete components including a 
microprocessor with a few dozen series 74 TTL chips thrown in for good 
measure.

 Now that all of that required silicon wizardry (and more) can be 
packaged into a one square inch PCB weighing a mere 6.6g (30A cont 25.2v 
brushless ESC module designed to drive a quadcopter motor - product code: 
FPV 30A-6S) for less than 20 quid (<https://tinyurl.com/ya53tojp>), such 
a view seems somewhat antiquated today. Presumably (BICBW) you're 
subscribed here to get up to speed on modern electronic technologies and 
practices.

 The inverter modules are much bigger since they're dealing with power 
conversion from an unregulated 350vdc supply to a constant 50Hz 230vac at 
the kilowatt level where, even with a conversion efficiency of 97 to 98 
percent, you still have to deal with some 25 to 40 watts of dissipation 
whilst keeping device temperatures below the 398K mark in ambient 
temperature conditions up to 313K or higher.

 The modules, as a consequence of this requirement, are mostly heatsink, 
shaped to allow the whole attached PCB to be fully embedded into a tough 
epoxy potting compound to protect against the harsh environmental 
conditions imposed by a small ICE running in the exposed conditions of an 
exterior environment.

 Combining a mechanically simpler PM three phase alternator with a 
dedicated inverter module is both cheaper to manufacture and more 
efficient than the more traditional single phase 50Hz 230vac alternator 
which uses a voltage regulator system that draws power from its output to 
drive magnetisation current through the field winding via a set of slip 
rings and brushes. The energy loss in an inverter module is only a 
fraction of that consumed in the field winding of a conventional AVRd 
single phase 50Hz 230v alternator of equivalent power output.

-- 
Johnny B Good

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:48:07 +0000, Jasen Betts wrote:

> On 2018-07-11, Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>  I'm posting here in the hope that I can get some guidance on how to
>>  add
>> an electric start feature to a cheap inverter generator cursed by the
>> traditional recoil pull starter (the Devil's invention, imho).
>> Apologies beforehand for what is a rather long initial post but I
>> thought it best to appraise you of my thoughts and what I know of the
>> problems involved in my proposed electronic add-on starter solution.
> 
> if it's anything like the Briggs & Stratton engines with the a similar
> configuration there's a ratchet on the flywheel that disengages from the
> rope pulley centrifugally. (B&S' designuses steel balls that engage by
> gravity)

 I remember the electric starter motor steel ball bearing clutch system 
used on my younger brother's Honda CB160, over forty years ago now, which 
relied on springs to hold the three radially disposed balls within the 
starter pinion against the crankshaft where the servo effect was used to 
wedge them against the crankshaft to lock the starter gear pinion when 
driven by the starter motor and then release their grip when the engine 
fired up and the shaft overtook the starter pinion. It was a deceptively 
simple system that didn't look durable enough for the task.

 The use of ball bearings in a 'free-wheel' styled starter pinion drive 
has a pedigree that goes back at least as far as Honda's CB160 motorcycle 
production days (if not further) but the use of gravity rather than 
spring pressure seems a bit of a hit 'n' miss system to me. Are you sure 
the system relied on gravity rather than something more positive like 
spring force?

> 
> So you you could remove the rope pulley and modify it to take a chain or
> a toothed belt instead (maybe cut it up and rivet a bicycle sprocket on
> there) and then you can use whatever motor you want.

 That would involve an actual mechanical modification which looks like it 
will cost me the use of the rope starting option, neither of which I see 
as particularly appealing.

> 
> Some B&S engines also have a ring gear on the flywheel which can be used
> for electric start not that this likey to be an exact clone.

 If this is a clone of anything, the most likely candidate will be the 
classic Honda EU1000i (which seems to be the basic pattern for pretty 
well all the other commodity brands of inverter gensets trying to get a 
slice of this market).

 You're more likely to see a flywheel ring gear starter option on open 
frame gensets rather than on the smaller 1 to 2 KW Honda EU series 
clones. The little Parkside PGi1000/1200 B2 has no such provision but, as 
I see it, there's little point when all that's missing is a BLDC motor 
starter module to use the existing three phase PM alternator for this 
task.

 I've already considered those options (and then some!), including even 
briefly considering the quick 'n' dirty battery powered cordless drill 
option. It was whilst I was pondering the utter futility of mechanically 
modifying the engine to add a seperate traditional starter motor, that I 
had a sudden epiphany, triggered by the memory of a series of youtube 
videos concerning alternator to BLDC motor conversion projects some 
months earlier.

 What went through my mind at the time of this epiphany was something 
very like:-

 "Well, fuck me! Why am I wasting my time trying to shoehorn a starter 
motor into this thing when it already has the electromechanical essence 
of a BLDC motor already fitted and installed? This just needs the one 
essential ingredient to be added to the mix, namely a suitable BLDC 
controller module (and a starter battery and switch) and "It's Job done!""

 I was, of course, referring to the high voltage (circa 350 to 400 volt) 
three phase multi-pole permanent magnet alternator that's directly driven 
by the engine (indeed the outer rotor carrying the neodymium magnets is 
also the engine's flywheel) which supplies the inverter module with the 
required 350 to 400 volts DC power which it converts to 50Hz 230vac power.

 Whether you choose to call it a three phase PM alternator or a BLDC 
motor, the electro-mechanicals remain the same. The gauge of wire, the 
number of turns and choice of topology (delta or star) may be optimised 
differently between the two functions depending on whether you want it to 
generate 230v 50Hz ac current or you want it to operate as a 230v 50Hz ac 
synchronous motor plus any other number of variations to account for 
different frequencies and/or voltages in either mode.

 Now that I have a rather neat solution to the problem of endowing this 
and, for that matter all such inverter gensets, with an electric starter 
option in mind, my question has been narrowed down from a general "How do 
I add an electric starter to this genset?" to the more specific "What is 
the best way to drive the 350v three phase PM alternator in my inverter 
genset as a BLDC starter motor?".

 It's a pity I hadn't framed my question that succinctly in the first 
place but it's only after receiving so much advice on every alternative 
but the one I'm after (all of which I'd already considered and 
discounted) that the need to restate my question becomes apparent. Not to 
put too fine a point on it, the question I'm really asking is this:-

 "What is the best way to drive the 350v three phase PM alternator in my 
inverter genset as a BLDC starter motor?"

 I can understand why such alternatives were being offered. A lot of 
similar pleas for help often involve needlessly complex electronic 
solutions to problems that can often be better addressed more 
pragmatically using a low tech option. Believe me, the complexity of a 
BLDC motor controller *is* the most pragmatic solution in this case. :-)

-- 
Johnny B Good

torsdag den 12. juli 2018 kl. 23.10.05 UTC+2 skrev Johnny B Good:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:48:07 +0000, Jasen Betts wrote:
> 
> > On 2018-07-11, Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >>  I'm posting here in the hope that I can get some guidance on how to
> >>  add
> >> an electric start feature to a cheap inverter generator cursed by the
> >> traditional recoil pull starter (the Devil's invention, imho).
> >> Apologies beforehand for what is a rather long initial post but I
> >> thought it best to appraise you of my thoughts and what I know of the
> >> problems involved in my proposed electronic add-on starter solution.
> > 
> > if it's anything like the Briggs & Stratton engines with the a similar
> > configuration there's a ratchet on the flywheel that disengages from the
> > rope pulley centrifugally. (B&S' designuses steel balls that engage by
> > gravity)
> 
>  I remember the electric starter motor steel ball bearing clutch system 
> used on my younger brother's Honda CB160, over forty years ago now, which 
> relied on springs to hold the three radially disposed balls within the 
> starter pinion against the crankshaft where the servo effect was used to 
> wedge them against the crankshaft to lock the starter gear pinion when 
> driven by the starter motor and then release their grip when the engine 
> fired up and the shaft overtook the starter pinion. It was a deceptively 
> simple system that didn't look durable enough for the task.
> 
>  The use of ball bearings in a 'free-wheel' styled starter pinion drive 
> has a pedigree that goes back at least as far as Honda's CB160 motorcycle 
> production days (if not further) but the use of gravity rather than 
> spring pressure seems a bit of a hit 'n' miss system to me. Are you sure 
> the system relied on gravity rather than something more positive like 
> spring force?
> 
> > 
> > So you you could remove the rope pulley and modify it to take a chain or
> > a toothed belt instead (maybe cut it up and rivet a bicycle sprocket on
> > there) and then you can use whatever motor you want.
> 
>  That would involve an actual mechanical modification which looks like it 
> will cost me the use of the rope starting option, neither of which I see 
> as particularly appealing.
> 
> > 
> > Some B&S engines also have a ring gear on the flywheel which can be used
> > for electric start not that this likey to be an exact clone.
> 
>  If this is a clone of anything, the most likely candidate will be the 
> classic Honda EU1000i (which seems to be the basic pattern for pretty 
> well all the other commodity brands of inverter gensets trying to get a 
> slice of this market).
> 
>  You're more likely to see a flywheel ring gear starter option on open 
> frame gensets rather than on the smaller 1 to 2 KW Honda EU series 
> clones. The little Parkside PGi1000/1200 B2 has no such provision but, as 
> I see it, there's little point when all that's missing is a BLDC motor 
> starter module to use the existing three phase PM alternator for this 
> task.
> 
>  I've already considered those options (and then some!), including even 
> briefly considering the quick 'n' dirty battery powered cordless drill 
> option. It was whilst I was pondering the utter futility of mechanically 
> modifying the engine to add a seperate traditional starter motor, that I 
> had a sudden epiphany, triggered by the memory of a series of youtube 
> videos concerning alternator to BLDC motor conversion projects some 
> months earlier.
> 
>  What went through my mind at the time of this epiphany was something 
> very like:-
> 
>  "Well, fuck me! Why am I wasting my time trying to shoehorn a starter 
> motor into this thing when it already has the electromechanical essence 
> of a BLDC motor already fitted and installed? This just needs the one 
> essential ingredient to be added to the mix, namely a suitable BLDC 
> controller module (and a starter battery and switch) and "It's Job done!""
> 
>  I was, of course, referring to the high voltage (circa 350 to 400 volt) 
> three phase multi-pole permanent magnet alternator that's directly driven 
> by the engine (indeed the outer rotor carrying the neodymium magnets is 
> also the engine's flywheel) which supplies the inverter module with the 
> required 350 to 400 volts DC power which it converts to 50Hz 230vac power.
> 
>  Whether you choose to call it a three phase PM alternator or a BLDC 
> motor, the electro-mechanicals remain the same. The gauge of wire, the 
> number of turns and choice of topology (delta or star) may be optimised 
> differently between the two functions depending on whether you want it to 
> generate 230v 50Hz ac current or you want it to operate as a 230v 50Hz ac 
> synchronous motor plus any other number of variations to account for 
> different frequencies and/or voltages in either mode.
> 
>  Now that I have a rather neat solution to the problem of endowing this 
> and, for that matter all such inverter gensets, with an electric starter 
> option in mind, my question has been narrowed down from a general "How do 
> I add an electric starter to this genset?" to the more specific "What is 
> the best way to drive the 350v three phase PM alternator in my inverter 
> genset as a BLDC starter motor?".
> 
>  It's a pity I hadn't framed my question that succinctly in the first 
> place but it's only after receiving so much advice on every alternative 
> but the one I'm after (all of which I'd already considered and 
> discounted) that the need to restate my question becomes apparent. Not to 
> put too fine a point on it, the question I'm really asking is this:-
> 
>  "What is the best way to drive the 350v three phase PM alternator in my 
> inverter genset as a BLDC starter motor?"
> 
>  I can understand why such alternatives were being offered. A lot of 
> similar pleas for help often involve needlessly complex electronic 
> solutions to problems that can often be better addressed more 
> pragmatically using a low tech option. Believe me, the complexity of a 
> BLDC motor controller *is* the most pragmatic solution in this case. :-)
> 

some kind of BLDC controller, sensored using three HALL elements rather 
than sensorless is probably preferable with the low speed and uneven load 
from the engine

3x half-bridge drivers that can handle the starting current and the voltage of the generator running, something like this might work 
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/sanken/SCM1243MF/SCM1243MF-ND/4454409

when the motor starts, the diodes in the half-bridges will basically form 
a 3-phase rectifier so a diode to isolate the battery 

and some way to stop commutation when the voltage rises

On Thursday, 12 July 2018 19:43:48 UTC+1, Johnny B Good  wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:29:09 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:
> > On Thursday, 12 July 2018 04:43:31 UTC+1, Johnny B Good  wrote:
> >> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 06:44:02 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 02:20:36 UTC+1, Johnny B Good  wrote:
> > 
> >> >> I'm posting here in the hope that I can get some guidance on how to
> >> >> add an electric start feature to a cheap inverter generator cursed
> >> >> by the traditional recoil pull starter (the Devil's invention,
> >> >> imho). Apologies beforehand for what is a rather long initial post
> >> >> but I thought it best
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > You do realise that cheap gennies have very short operational lives,
> >> > making extensive work on them pointless. If you want something worth
> >> > tinkering with get a Listeroid from some 3rd world country. Tinkering
> >> > is not optional & they will run for a lifetime, day in day out, once
> >> > fully built. Listeroids also use a fraction as much fuel as modern
> >> > junkboxes.
> >> 
> >>  Not quite as small a fraction as you might think.
> > 
> > marketing speak
> 
> ???

it's meaningless. And if you were to ascribe it a meaning, still valueless. Classic marketing talk.


> >> However, they can be run on duty free diesel for about half the cost of
> >> a petrol/gasoline generator. Indeed they're not fussy about what fuel
> >> oil you choose to run them on so you have a lot more fuelling options.
> >> 
> >>  Thank you for that sage advice. I do appreciate what you're saying but
> >> unfortunately, I'm not trying to live off grid and nor do I have the
> >> space to install such venerable machinery. On top of which, the
> >> standard generator heads typically fitted to these listeroids[1] no
> >> longer suit the needs of modern day lighting and computer loadings,
> >> particularly true in the case of my venerable Smartups2000 with its
> >> 9.4μF's worth of capacitive loading across its mains input which sends
> >> conventional single phase AVR controlled 230vac 50Hz alternators into a
> >> massive over-volting state as a result.
> > 
> > not hard to add an inductive load to protect against capacitive loads
> 
>  Yeah, I used to think that too. :-(
> 
>  Believe me, that's exactly what I tried but it failed to remedy the 
> problem.

Not enough inductive current I presume.


> In retrospect, I'd have been better off fitting a 4.7μF PFC 
> capacitor to the generator to force the rotor into saturation and use an 
> auto-transformer to step the resulting 280vac back down to 240vac. Once 
> afflicted by a modest capacitive loading, any additional capacitance 
> would have had little if any further effect (other than for the issue of 
> the extra leading current being drawn). However, I'd have been placing 
> additional stress on the stator windings so probably not the best of 
> pragmatic solutions.
> 
> > 
> >>  Lagging current loadings are merely the usual low power factor issue
> >> without the overvolting effect on the standard AVR controlled single
> >> phase alternators used in conventional generators but the slightest
> >> sniff of excess leading current from just a single 3.3μF fluorescent
> >> lamp PFC capacitor across the output of a 2.8KVA generator was enough
> >> to send its nominal 230v north of the 275v mark. I'm sure you can
> >> appreciate the problem caused by the Smartups2000 with its 9.4μF's
> >> worth across that genset's output.
> > 
> >>  I don't expect to be running the generator for more than half a dozen
> >> hours a year (monthly half hour test runs being the most likely
> >> consumption of generator hours) but I like to be prepared against power
> >> outages to maintain all the lighting, the CH/DHW (pump, controller and
> >> zone valve), my IT kit (NAS box, desktop PC, a Gbit switch and a couple
> >> of routers) along with the 4K smart TV in the living room to allow the
> >> missus to watch her favourite soap operas without interruption.
> > 
> > sounds more pointless than I expected Gas lighting is cheap & reliable,
> > far more of both than any genny.
> 
>  You're entitled to your opinion but I think you've rather missed the 
> point of the exercise.

I have if there is one.


> >> [1] Obviously, a permanent magnet three phase alternator wired to a
> >> high voltage rectifier pack and geared to produce 420vdc on no load
> >> could be used to power an inverter module (in essence a bridged pair of
> >> class D amps driven from a 50Hz sinewave reference signal) to get round
> >> this voltage instability impediment as well as improve on the best
> >> efficiency of the standard single phase alternator typically used to
> >> directly generate the required 50Hz 240vac voltage supply.
> >> 
> >>  As long as the DC voltage feeding the inverter module doesn't dip
> >>  below
> >> 340v, it will be able to sustain the 240vac right up to its maximum
> >> rated current limit, assuming of course that this doesn't exceed the
> >> three phase PM alternator's maximum ratings.
> > 
> > that's a hard way to do a simple task.
> 
>  Not in these modern times with cheap commodity priced 'electronic 
> solutions'. :-)
> 
>  BTW, why are you subscribed to SED if you deem such a solution to be "a 
> hard way to do a simple task."? That view would have been valid three 
> decades back when such 'complex solutions' would have required a complex 
> circuit board populated with hundreds of discrete components including a 
> microprocessor with a few dozen series 74 TTL chips thrown in for good 
> measure.
> 
>  Now that all of that required silicon wizardry (and more) can be 
> packaged into a one square inch PCB weighing a mere 6.6g (30A cont 25.2v 
> brushless ESC module designed to drive a quadcopter motor - product code: 
> FPV 30A-6S) for less than 20 quid (<https://tinyurl.com/ya53tojp>), such 
> a view seems somewhat antiquated today. Presumably (BICBW) you're 
> subscribed here to get up to speed on modern electronic technologies and 
> practices.

with respect there are easier ways. I'm sorry if pointing that out upset you.


NT

On 2018-07-12, Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:48:07 +0000, Jasen Betts wrote:
>
>> On 2018-07-11, Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>  I'm posting here in the hope that I can get some guidance on how to
>>>  add
>>> an electric start feature to a cheap inverter generator cursed by the
>>> traditional recoil pull starter (the Devil's invention, imho).
>>> Apologies beforehand for what is a rather long initial post but I
>>> thought it best to appraise you of my thoughts and what I know of the
>>> problems involved in my proposed electronic add-on starter solution.
>> 
>> if it's anything like the Briggs & Stratton engines with the a similar
>> configuration there's a ratchet on the flywheel that disengages from the
>> rope pulley centrifugally. (B&S' designuses steel balls that engage by
>> gravity)
>
>  I remember the electric starter motor steel ball bearing clutch system 
> used on my younger brother's Honda CB160, over forty years ago now, which 
> relied on springs to hold the three radially disposed balls within the 
> starter pinion against the crankshaft where the servo effect was used to 
> wedge them against the crankshaft to lock the starter gear pinion when 
> driven by the starter motor and then release their grip when the engine 
> fired up and the shaft overtook the starter pinion. It was a deceptively 
> simple system that didn't look durable enough for the task.

this is a friction clutch? sounds kind of dodgy

>  The use of ball bearings in a 'free-wheel' styled starter pinion drive 
> has a pedigree that goes back at least as far as Honda's CB160 motorcycle 
> production days (if not further) but the use of gravity rather than 
> spring pressure seems a bit of a hit 'n' miss system to me. Are you sure 
> the system relied on gravity rather than something more positive like 
> spring force?

Just gravity, it'a ratchet clutch with centrifugal release
not a friction clutch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8jiN64dUOo

there's 6 ball slots and 5 teeth so the rope spool only needs to rotate a
little before one of them catches.

The back of the tray that holds the balls is dished slightly so that the same
clutch can be used on the top of vertical-crank engines.

>> So you you could remove the rope pulley and modify it to take a chain or
>> a toothed belt instead (maybe cut it up and rivet a bicycle sprocket on
>> there) and then you can use whatever motor you want.
>
>  That would involve an actual mechanical modification which looks like it 
> will cost me the use of the rope starting option, neither of which I see 
> as particularly appealing.

put a pulley on the starter motor shaft fer emergencies.

-- 
     &#1578;

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:54:12 -0700, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

> torsdag den 12. juli 2018 kl. 23.10.05 UTC+2 skrev Johnny B Good:

====snip====

>>  It's a pity I hadn't framed my question that succinctly in the first
>> place but it's only after receiving so much advice on every alternative
>> but the one I'm after (all of which I'd already considered and
>> discounted) that the need to restate my question becomes apparent. Not
>> to put too fine a point on it, the question I'm really asking is this:-
>> 
>>  "What is the best way to drive the 350v three phase PM alternator in
>>  my
>> inverter genset as a BLDC starter motor?"
>> 
>>  I can understand why such alternatives were being offered. A lot of
>> similar pleas for help often involve needlessly complex electronic
>> solutions to problems that can often be better addressed more
>> pragmatically using a low tech option. Believe me, the complexity of a
>> BLDC motor controller *is* the most pragmatic solution in this case.
>> :-)
>> 
>> 
> some kind of BLDC controller, sensored using three HALL elements rather
> than sensorless is probably preferable with the low speed and uneven
> load from the engine

 I'm only too aware of the problem that can result when a sensorless BLDC 
controller has to fight compression resistance without any run up to 
recruit the flywheel inertia to assist pulling through this part of the 
engine cycle.

 However, I'd like to avoid modifying the alternator with add on sensors 
if possible. One technique that comes to mind is to detect the lack of 
acceleration to determine that the engine is at the start of the 
compression stroke and to use this to reverse the direction of the motor 
until it detects the 'previous' compression stroke whereupon it switches 
back to forward, using the compression to help bounce it into forward 
acceleration so that there is sufficient inertial energy built up in the 
flywheel to push through the next and subsequent compression strokes 
until the engine either fires up or the start sequence times out.

> 
> 3x half-bridge drivers that can handle the starting current and the
> voltage of the generator running, something like this might work
> https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/sanken/SCM1243MF/SCM1243MF-
ND/4454409

 I've been studying the product info on that family of driver chips, in 
particular the SCM1246MF which looks the most promising with its 400v Vbb 
rating and the IGBT max voltage ratings of 600v and a 30A drive rating. 
I'm planning on using a 24v starter battery for my initial tests so the 
Vsat figure of 1.7v at 30A isn't a major problem especially as the phase 
winding resistance is likely to be around an ohm (yet to be tested) so max 
starting current (hence torque) from standstill will likely be limited to 
around the 20A mark (about four times the normal maximum 30 seconds 
output current limit as an alternator).

 I've no idea whether this will provide sufficient torque to ease past 
the compression resistance without any run up with sufficient alacrity to 
avoid burning out the alternator windings (effectively trying to emulate 
the brute force and ignorance algorithm of an actual dumb starter motor 
system), hence my thoughts on detecting a losing battle so as to sneak up 
on the compression cycle from behind by reversing the drive until it 
detects  hitting the back end of the 'previous' compression before 
switching back to forward drive to take advantage of the bounce back from 
the reversed compression cycle and an extended run up through some 630 
degrees worth of rotation to take, so to speak, the enemy by surprise. :-)

> 
> when the motor starts, the diodes in the half-bridges will basically
> form a 3-phase rectifier so a diode to isolate the battery
> 
> and some way to stop commutation when the voltage rises

 That was the other problem that's been on my mind ever since I'd 
initially considered the use of a 30A rated R/C brushless ESC module 
rated for 6 cell's worth of LiPo battery (25.2v). In this case, I was 
figuring on using a solid state high voltage relay for its speed and 
reliability to disconnect the low voltage controller in a timely enough 
fashion to protect it against the alternator voltage once the engine had 
fired up.

 Using a high voltage half bridge driver module removes the need to 
isolate the module from the alternator's output voltage terminals and 
transfers the problem elsewhere, in this case, the need to fit a blocking 
diode in series with the Vbb connection to stop the driver module's fast 
recovery diodes backfeeding the 350/400 volts into a poor defenceless 
battery (or a 48v DC-DC converter module if 24v operation doesn't provide 
sufficient cranking speed). I think detecting when to disable the 
commutation should be a fairly trivial task.

 This does have the merit of simplifying the high voltage isolation 
requirement to a somewhat more foolproof single high voltage high current 
diode as opposed to the more complex issue of isolating the three 
separate phase connections via a three pole solid state relay (assembly) 
with similar voltage and current rating requirements and a circuit to 
detect when the engine fires up and to switch the SS relay off in a 
timely fashion before the ESC module can be killed by the excess voltage. 
All in all, the use of a 3 pole SS relay seems a rather more fraught 
option to go for.

 If I could beg borrow or steal a 6S rated 20 or 30 amp ESC module, it 
would only be to use it for initial basic testing with the ignition 
disabled. I'd certainly not bother with a 3 pole isolating relay module 
to press it into actual service even if the initial test results did 
prove favourable. At that stage, I'd be looking to use a high voltage BLDC 
motor controller module to demote the isolation issue to starter voltage 
supply protection.

 I've studied the product data sheets on those half bridge driver modules 
and it appears that I'll still have to connect and setup a processor 
module to make a complete BLDC motor controller unit. This was something 
I was hoping to avoid by using a more intelligent sensorless BLDCM 
controller unit with a self learning feature built in.

 The problem here is that the high voltage BLDCM controllers might not 
have such a feature built in. I've seen the lower voltage 24 to 84 volt 
rated controllers designed for model aircraft and electric bicycle and go-
kart BLDCMs with such a learning feature built in but there's no 
guarantee that'll be true for the higher voltage kit designed for washing 
machine/tumble drier motors and fridge/freezer compressor motors where 
they're more likely to be supplied as pre-programmed spares.

 However, I'm still new to this technology so getting hold of a suitable 
high voltage BLDCM controller with a self learning feature may not be 
quite as hard as I fear. I'm hoping that maybe I've been over-thinking 
the potential issue of compression resistance and that there'll be no 
need to incorporate a special "take the compression by surprise" starter 
algorithm so I can utilise a self learning module otherwise I'll have no 
choice but to get my hands dirty customising the controller program.

 I'm still open to any advice on this matter. Oh, one final question 
that's just occurred to me, if I have (or can gain) access to the neutral 
connection on the alternator, will this be of any use to gain a 70(?)% 
cranking speed boost from any given starter voltage?

-- 
Johnny B Good

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:43:20 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

> On Thursday, 12 July 2018 19:43:48 UTC+1, Johnny B Good  wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:29:09 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:
>> > On Thursday, 12 July 2018 04:43:31 UTC+1, Johnny B Good  wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 06:44:02 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 02:20:36 UTC+1, Johnny B Good  wrote:
>> > 
>> >> >> I'm posting here in the hope that I can get some guidance on how
>> >> >> to add an electric start feature to a cheap inverter generator
>> >> >> cursed by the traditional recoil pull starter (the Devil's
>> >> >> invention, imho). Apologies beforehand for what is a rather long
>> >> >> initial post but I thought it best
>> >> > 
>> >> > 
>> >> > You do realise that cheap gennies have very short operational
>> >> > lives, making extensive work on them pointless. If you want
>> >> > something worth tinkering with get a Listeroid from some 3rd world
>> >> > country. Tinkering is not optional & they will run for a lifetime,
>> >> > day in day out, once fully built. Listeroids also use a fraction
>> >> > as much fuel as modern junkboxes.
>> >> 
>> >>  Not quite as small a fraction as you might think.
>> > 
>> > marketing speak
>> 
>> ???
> 
> it's meaningless. And if you were to ascribe it a meaning, still
> valueless. Classic marketing talk.

 That still doesn't really make a lot of sense. I looked at the fuel 
consumption graph for bio-diesel and for the 1KW point on the graph it 
equated to 0.64 litres per hour which is only slightly less than the 0.68 
litre per hour figure for the 670W output level of the PGI 1200 B2. To be 
fair, that's an apples and oranges comparison but I don't have a graph 
for the Parkside units.

 Alternatively, at the 700W level, the Listeroid graph shows a 0.15 US 
gal per hour rate which equates to 0.57 litre per hour despite the 
reduced efficiency of the consumption per KWH figure which flattens out 
in the range 1250 to 2500 watts at a per KWH peak of 0.5 litre per KWH of 
energy generated. When you look at the 500W figure that per KWH 
consumption hits the 0.98 litre mark which is likely much higher than the 
Parkside's consumption rate at this production level (500W load).

 If the generator spends most of its run time operating at the 300W 
level, the litre per KWH rate gets even worse leaving the Parkside the 
winner in this case but, of course, that neglects the much lower cost per 
litre of duty free diesel over that of petroleum (gasoline).

 Also, the Listeroid graph is handicapped by the use of a conventional 
single phase 230v alternator generator head and the extra losses of a 
drive belt totally absent in the case of the direct drive PM three phase 
alternator powered inverter suitcase generator.

 For anyone living off-grid, the choice of a large low revving diesel 
prime mover to drive a generator head (whether it's a conventional single 
phase 230v alternator or a geared up three phase PM alternator with 
inverter module), is a no-brainer one. However, for someone looking for 
an emergency backup generator to mitigate winter outages or looking for a 
more luxurious wilderness trekking experience, the lightweight suitcase 
inverter genset becomes the no-brainer option (that 1KW Parkside unit 
only weighs in at a mere 13Kg!).

> 
> 
>> >> However, they can be run on duty free diesel for about half the cost
>> >> of a petrol/gasoline generator. Indeed they're not fussy about what
>> >> fuel oil you choose to run them on so you have a lot more fuelling
>> >> options.
>> >> 
>> >>  Thank you for that sage advice. I do appreciate what you're saying
>> >>  but
>> >> unfortunately, I'm not trying to live off grid and nor do I have the
>> >> space to install such venerable machinery. On top of which, the
>> >> standard generator heads typically fitted to these listeroids[1] no
>> >> longer suit the needs of modern day lighting and computer loadings,
>> >> particularly true in the case of my venerable Smartups2000 with its
>> >> 9.4μF's worth of capacitive loading across its mains input which
>> >> sends conventional single phase AVR controlled 230vac 50Hz
>> >> alternators into a massive over-volting state as a result.
>> > 
>> > not hard to add an inductive load to protect against capacitive loads
>> 
>>  Yeah, I used to think that too. :-(
>> 
>>  Believe me, that's exactly what I tried but it failed to remedy the
>> problem.
> 
> Not enough inductive current I presume.

 Judging by the effect it had on my first Parkside genset, I'd say it had 
provided ample inductive current. I'd forgotten that I still had it in 
circuit when I hooked up the first generator to the cable leading into 
the basement to my Smartups2000 (not yet plugged into the business end of 
that cable), so was surprised when the generator started labouring when I 
plugged it in.

 The extra vibration must have been the final straw on the already 
loosened connector because after correcting my mistake by removing the no 
longer required inductor, I only got about 30 seconds run time before the 
generator stopped with an overload signal as a consequence of one of the 
phases disconnecting. Luckily, this had been just long enough to verify 
that I no longer had a capacitive over-volting issue with the Smartups2000 
so was happy to seek a replacement rather than a refund from Lidl.

 It was just unfortunate that this 2nd one wouldn't start because of a 
stuck oil level sensor float until I disconnected a suspiciously loose 
single wire connector which proved to be said engine sensor terminal 
connection which, like the oil pressure warning switch used in automotive 
engines which signal the lack of pressure by completing the connection to 
engine chassis earth to light up a warning light on the dash - in this 
case disable the ignition to prevent the engine destroying itself for a 
lack of oil rather for a lack of oil pressure.

 Unfortunately at that time, I hadn't come across the comments which had 
mentioned that it was a float level sensor that could end up jammed by 
transit handling abuse rather than, as I'd initially presumed, a pressure 
sensing switch which, despite the engine vibrations unjamming the float, 
left me a little uneasy about the possibility of an intermittent fault in 
an oil pressure sensing switch.

 If I'd been aware of the true nature of this low oil sensor, I wouldn't 
have felt the need (out of the principle that "discretion is the best 
part of valour") to return it to Lidl for yet another replacement it 
turned out they didn't have which left me without a generator until I 
discovered another cache of three a week later in another local Lidl that 
I'd wrongly assumed wouldn't have been chosen to stock this "bargain of 
the decade".

 Remembering my several trips back and forth with the first two, I bought 
two with the intention of returning the surplus unit for a refund once 
I'd decided which of the two was going to be 'surplus to requirements' 
after checking for the stock faults I had now become aware of by this 
stage.

 If both had proved defective, I could have returned both in one trip 
rather than two seperate trips. As it happened both checked out ok 
leaving me to select which to keep hold of on the basis of minor niggles. 
Unfortunately, it never occurred to me to verify the claimed overload 
wattage calibration setting so I landed up with the one that signalled 
this state at the 980W mark rather than the expected 1030 to 1050 watt 
mark.

 I suppose it's just possible that the other could have been set exactly 
the same, possibly all of them, in which case I'd be left to consider a 
calibration error on my test equipment being on the wrong side of the 
+/-3% accuracy tolerance range (both my analogue and two digital 
wattmeters being within 1% of each others' readings in the 1 to 1000W 
range makes this unlikely though not impossible).

 If Lidl ever put these B2 models back on offer at the same 99 quid 
price, I'll be snapping a couple of them up for testing. At that price, 
it's well worth holding a spare in reserve anyway.

 Normally, with such miscalibration issues as this, I'd be adjusting the 
relevant trimmer. Unfortunately, the inverter module used is completely 
devoid of any such trimmers - presumably they're preset in the factory 
(possibly via a JTAG connector - there are a couple of unused header 
blocks that could be candidates for this function).

 If I ever track down the relevant JTAG programming instructions, I'll 
trouble myself to bodge up a connector and configure an interface for the 
PC or laptop, otherwise my best bet is to acquire more examples and 
select the best (inverter module).

====snipped quotage, including a non sequitur one liner reply====

> 
> 
>> >> [1] Obviously, a permanent magnet three phase alternator wired to a
>> >> high voltage rectifier pack and geared to produce 420vdc on no load
>> >> could be used to power an inverter module (in essence a bridged pair
>> >> of class D amps driven from a 50Hz sinewave reference signal) to get
>> >> round this voltage instability impediment as well as improve on the
>> >> best efficiency of the standard single phase alternator typically
>> >> used to directly generate the required 50Hz 240vac voltage supply.
>> >> 
>> >>  As long as the DC voltage feeding the inverter module doesn't dip
>> >>  below
>> >> 340v, it will be able to sustain the 240vac right up to its maximum
>> >> rated current limit, assuming of course that this doesn't exceed the
>> >> three phase PM alternator's maximum ratings.
>> > 
>> > that's a hard way to do a simple task.
>> 
>>  Not in these modern times with cheap commodity priced 'electronic
>> solutions'. :-)
>> 
>>  BTW, why are you subscribed to SED if you deem such a solution to be
>>  "a
>> hard way to do a simple task."? That view would have been valid three
>> decades back when such 'complex solutions' would have required a
>> complex circuit board populated with hundreds of discrete components
>> including a microprocessor with a few dozen series 74 TTL chips thrown
>> in for good measure.
>> 
>>  Now that all of that required silicon wizardry (and more) can be
>> packaged into a one square inch PCB weighing a mere 6.6g (30A cont
>> 25.2v brushless ESC module designed to drive a quadcopter motor -
>> product code:
>> FPV 30A-6S) for less than 20 quid (<https://tinyurl.com/ya53tojp>),
>> such a view seems somewhat antiquated today. Presumably (BICBW) you're
>> subscribed here to get up to speed on modern electronic technologies
>> and practices.
> 
> with respect there are easier ways. I'm sorry if pointing that out upset
> you.

 Not annoyed, irritated? yes! but annoyed? no.

Ok, suggest an 'easier way' then.

-- 
Johnny B Good

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 04:07:10 +0000, Jasen Betts wrote:

> On 2018-07-12, Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:48:07 +0000, Jasen Betts wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-07-11, Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>  I'm posting here in the hope that I can get some guidance on how to
>>>>  add
>>>> an electric start feature to a cheap inverter generator cursed by the
>>>> traditional recoil pull starter (the Devil's invention, imho).
>>>> Apologies beforehand for what is a rather long initial post but I
>>>> thought it best to appraise you of my thoughts and what I know of the
>>>> problems involved in my proposed electronic add-on starter solution.
>>> 
>>> if it's anything like the Briggs & Stratton engines with the a similar
>>> configuration there's a ratchet on the flywheel that disengages from
>>> the rope pulley centrifugally. (B&S' designuses steel balls that
>>> engage by gravity)
>>
>>  I remember the electric starter motor steel ball bearing clutch system
>> used on my younger brother's Honda CB160, over forty years ago now,
>> which relied on springs to hold the three radially disposed balls
>> within the starter pinion against the crankshaft where the servo effect
>> was used to wedge them against the crankshaft to lock the starter gear
>> pinion when driven by the starter motor and then release their grip
>> when the engine fired up and the shaft overtook the starter pinion. It
>> was a deceptively simple system that didn't look durable enough for the
>> task.
> 
> this is a friction clutch? sounds kind of dodgy

 So o o o h..., not just me then? :-)

> 
>>  The use of ball bearings in a 'free-wheel' styled starter pinion drive
>> has a pedigree that goes back at least as far as Honda's CB160
>> motorcycle production days (if not further) but the use of gravity
>> rather than spring pressure seems a bit of a hit 'n' miss system to me.
>> Are you sure the system relied on gravity rather than something more
>> positive like spring force?
> 
> Just gravity, it'a ratchet clutch with centrifugal release not a
> friction clutch.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8jiN64dUOo
> 
> there's 6 ball slots and 5 teeth so the rope spool only needs to rotate
> a little before one of them catches.
> 
> The back of the tray that holds the balls is dished slightly so that the
> same clutch can be used on the top of vertical-crank engines.
> 
>>> So you you could remove the rope pulley and modify it to take a chain
>>> or a toothed belt instead (maybe cut it up and rivet a bicycle
>>> sprocket on there) and then you can use whatever motor you want.
>>
>>  That would involve an actual mechanical modification which looks like
>>  it
>> will cost me the use of the rope starting option, neither of which I
>> see as particularly appealing.
> 
> put a pulley on the starter motor shaft fer emergencies.

 That's piling one bodge on top of another. No thanks! I prefer my "Heath 
Robinson" bodges to be kept nicely out of sight, safely tucked away in 
the silicon innards of a well hidden BLDCM controller module, thank you 
very much. :-)

 Such gross mechanical modifications to graft an electric starter motor 
onto a small 54cc 4 stroke petrol engine that already has the makings of 
a BLDC starter motor in the guise of an alternator flywheel seems such an 
unnecessary exercise when all that seems to be lacking is a suitable BLDCM 
controller and starter battery pack.

 I'm not sure whether a simple self learning BLDCM controller can be used 
to brute force the issue of overcoming engine compression resistance or 
whether I'll need to program the controller to 'sneak its way past' this 
obstacle to attaining cranking speed before the current required to 
generate the required starting torque burns out the motor/alternator coil 
windings.

 Right now, I have no empirical data by which to judge the viability of 
my 'Clever Idea'(tm), only a gut feeling that it aught to be possible 
(even if it needs a "Brains not Brawn" approach to the problem by way of 
a custom starter motor controller algorithm in the BLDCM controller 
module's micro-controller).

 At the moment, I've had a recent thought about the possible benefit of 
gaining access to the neutral connection on the star wired alternator to 
improve the 'K' factor (an rpms per volt BLDC motor figure of merit used 
by the aero modelling community). My first gut feeling on this is that 
there may be a 70% or so cranking speed boost at stake but I haven't had 
a chance to consider it any further.

 It might turn out to be a "Red Herring" chase on my part. Continuing 
with the fishy pun theme, I'm obviously still 'floundering' around with 
this project so any assistance in the matter of BLDC motor controllers to 
convert a 350v three phase PM alternator into a starter motor would be 
greatly appreciated now.

-- 
Johnny B Good