Simple useful appliance?

On 2/8/2018 4:29 AM, bitrex wrote:
> On 02/07/2018 01:50 PM, Rob wrote:
>> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> Developing world?  A fairly high percentage of people in Africa have
>>> cell phones or smartphones (to discourage POTS line copper theft):
>>
>> Over here, making such a statement would result in you being called
>> a RACIST and being trending on Twitter all day.
>>
> 
> An unqualified statement "Africans tend to steal stuff" probably would.
> That isn't what he said
> 

The implication would be enough to set off a lot of people.

On 02/08/2018 12:13 AM, Pimpom wrote:
> On 2/8/2018 4:29 AM, bitrex wrote:
>> On 02/07/2018 01:50 PM, Rob wrote:
>>> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>> Developing world?&nbsp; A fairly high percentage of people in Africa have
>>>> cell phones or smartphones (to discourage POTS line copper theft):
>>>
>>> Over here, making such a statement would result in you being called
>>> a RACIST and being trending on Twitter all day.
>>>
>>
>> An unqualified statement "Africans tend to steal stuff" probably would.
>> That isn't what he said
>>
> 
> The implication would be enough to set off a lot of people.

Americans of all political varieties have a tendency to bug out over 
trivia a lot, it's probably partly a consequence of affluence, the kind 
of affluence where good hard working white people would never dream of 
stooping to stealing copper wire.

<https://iowacoldcases.org/the-copper-theft-epidemic/>

>"When the power goes out connect an 18650, unprotected, Li-Ion battery into the wall outlet. When the power is restored the Li-Ion battery will explode and start a small fire which will then trigger the smoke alarm. The continuous alarm is more likely to be effective"

Are you related to Rube Goldberg ?

On 2/8/2018 11:17 AM, bitrex wrote:
> On 02/08/2018 12:13 AM, Pimpom wrote:
>> On 2/8/2018 4:29 AM, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 02/07/2018 01:50 PM, Rob wrote:
>>>> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>>> Developing world?&nbsp; A fairly high percentage of people in Africa have
>>>>> cell phones or smartphones (to discourage POTS line copper theft):
>>>>
>>>> Over here, making such a statement would result in you being called
>>>> a RACIST and being trending on Twitter all day.
>>>>
>>>
>>> An unqualified statement "Africans tend to steal stuff" probably would.
>>> That isn't what he said
>>>
>>
>> The implication would be enough to set off a lot of people.
> 
> Americans of all political varieties have a tendency to bug out over
> trivia a lot, it's probably partly a consequence of affluence, the kind
> of affluence where good hard working white people would never dream of
> stooping to stealing copper wire.
> 
> <https://iowacoldcases.org/the-copper-theft-epidemic/>
> 

What about "good hard working" non-whites or non-affluent whites? 
See, that's the kind of twist people would put into your words.

I used to do a lot of consultative work for the state's power 
department starting some 35 years ago. It coincided with a time 
when they'd started electrification of rural areas in earnest. 
They had a lot of trouble with theft of aluminium conductors 
along the half-finished 11 and 33kV transmission lines. Once, 
some low-mid level workers asked me if they should feed power to 
the lines to discourage the thieves. I nixed the idea.

On 2/8/2018 5:59 AM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 8 February 2018 00:21:01 UTC, tabby  wrote:
>> On Thursday, 8 February 2018 00:00:21 UTC, bitrex  wrote:
>>> On 02/07/2018 06:48 PM, tabbypurr wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 23:15:55 UTC, bitrex  wrote:
>>>>> On 02/07/2018 08:03 AM, tabbypurr wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> George said he needed a problem to think about.... here's a bit of a change from your usual design projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's the simplest useful electronic product you can think of? Excluded are small amplifiers & oscillators, those have been done. Heating items such as kettles are excluded as they won't be very useful in this situation. Reaction radios are out due to legal issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By useful I mean in areas of the developing world where electricity is available to a percentage of users. The item must be makeable entirely from parts from scrap, your digikey budget is zero. So no uncommon components.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be a domestic item, business item, manufacturing tool, anything of use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NT
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The 555 timer rain alarm is a classic that's pretty useful in areas of
>>>>> the world that get unpredictable, sudden torrential downpours:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://electrosome.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Rain-Alarm-using-555-Timer-PCB-1.jpg>
>>>>
>>>> Could you explain how it would be useful?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> NT
>>>>
>>>
>>> Rainwater is a big source of potable water for many people in developing
>>> countries, particularly during times of extreme drought. But you don't
>>> wanna just leave the cans or barrels or catch-basins or storage tank
>>> channel entry points open all the time, open standing water is generally
>>> dangerous, animals and insects poop and piss and possibly crawl in and
>>> die in there, mosquitoes use it to lay eggs and spread Dengue fever, and
>>> generally contaminate it up.
>>>
>>> So you keep them sealed but what happens if it rains in the middle of
>>> the night when everyone's asleep? Can you guarantee anyone will hear it
>>> and get up to collect it? That 15 minute downpour might be the only
>>> bonus fresh water you get for a week.
>>
>> I like that one.
>>
>>
>> NT
> 
> 3 - 15mA quiescent is pretty grim though, will need to use another oscillator.
> 

They can use the CMOS versions with ~100uA of standby current. 
They have enough output to drive those small buzzers. If not, a 
single transistor and a resistor can be added.

Pimpom wrote:

> On 2/8/2018 11:17 AM, bitrex wrote:
>> On 02/08/2018 12:13 AM, Pimpom wrote:

snip

>> <https://iowacoldcases.org/the-copper-theft-epidemic/>
>> 
>
> What about "good hard working" non-whites or non-affluent whites? 
> See, that's the kind of twist people would put into your words.
>
> I used to do a lot of consultative work for the state's power 
> department starting some 35 years ago. It coincided with a time 
> when they'd started electrification of rural areas in earnest. 
> They had a lot of trouble with theft of aluminium conductors 
> along the half-finished 11 and 33kV transmission lines. Once, 
> some low-mid level workers asked me if they should feed power to 
> the lines to discourage the thieves. I nixed the idea.

  Well, you could have energized the unfinished segments with a cattle
fence type repellant.  Not likely to be a fatal lesson.  About the same
as our non-fatal taser facts.

On 02/08/2018 01:28 AM, Pimpom wrote:
> On 2/8/2018 11:17 AM, bitrex wrote:
>> On 02/08/2018 12:13 AM, Pimpom wrote:
>>> On 2/8/2018 4:29 AM, bitrex wrote:
>>>> On 02/07/2018 01:50 PM, Rob wrote:
>>>>> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Developing world?&nbsp; A fairly high percentage of people in Africa have
>>>>>> cell phones or smartphones (to discourage POTS line copper theft):
>>>>>
>>>>> Over here, making such a statement would result in you being called
>>>>> a RACIST and being trending on Twitter all day.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An unqualified statement "Africans tend to steal stuff" probably would.
>>>> That isn't what he said
>>>>
>>>
>>> The implication would be enough to set off a lot of people.
>>
>> Americans of all political varieties have a tendency to bug out over
>> trivia a lot, it's probably partly a consequence of affluence, the kind
>> of affluence where good hard working white people would never dream of
>> stooping to stealing copper wire.
>>
>> <https://iowacoldcases.org/the-copper-theft-epidemic/>
>>
> 
> What about "good hard working" non-whites or non-affluent whites? See, 
> that's the kind of twist people would put into your words.
> 
> I used to do a lot of consultative work for the state's power department 
> starting some 35 years ago. It coincided with a time when they'd started 
> electrification of rural areas in earnest. They had a lot of trouble 
> with theft of aluminium conductors along the half-finished 11 and 33kV 
> transmission lines. Once, some low-mid level workers asked me if they 
> should feed power to the lines to discourage the thieves. I nixed the idea.
> 

Probably depends on the rationale for the theft. In the US those thefts 
are primarily for money to buy drugs/addiction, and judging by some of 
the stories on that site energized equipment doesn't seem to be much of 
a deterrent.

On 2/8/2018 12:10 PM, Long Hair wrote:
> Pimpom wrote:
> 
>> On 2/8/2018 11:17 AM, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 02/08/2018 12:13 AM, Pimpom wrote:
> 
> snip
> 
>>> <https://iowacoldcases.org/the-copper-theft-epidemic/>
>>>
>>
>> What about "good hard working" non-whites or non-affluent whites?
>> See, that's the kind of twist people would put into your words.
>>
>> I used to do a lot of consultative work for the state's power
>> department starting some 35 years ago. It coincided with a time
>> when they'd started electrification of rural areas in earnest.
>> They had a lot of trouble with theft of aluminium conductors
>> along the half-finished 11 and 33kV transmission lines. Once,
>> some low-mid level workers asked me if they should feed power to
>> the lines to discourage the thieves. I nixed the idea.
> 
>    Well, you could have energized the unfinished segments with a cattle
> fence type repellant.  Not likely to be a fatal lesson.  About the same
> as our non-fatal taser facts.
> 

I thought of that but I didn't want to risk having someone with a 
weak heart die from the shock or from falling off the top of a 
20-foot pole.

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 01:09:31 UTC, Jeff Liebermann  wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 15:47:26 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
> >On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 23:18:42 UTC, Jeff Liebermann  wrote:

> >> capacity to run them.  Also, finding desktops that run on 12VDC is
> >> rather difficult. 
> 
> >Can you not get SM convertors for the various rails from ebay etc?
> 
> Sure.  I could buy a pile of buck converters and run them on 24v or
> maybe 48VDC.  I actually tried a few of those and ran into problems:
> 
> 1.  The RFI is horrendous.  None of them could ever pass an FCC Part
> 19 incidental radiation test.  When the power is out, I like to run my
> various ham and commercial radios, as well as scanners.  That last
> thing I need if EMI/RFI.  Shielding an a ton of ferrite beads will
> help, but I prefer to avoid the problem.
> 
> 2.  Many devices are labeled +12VDC without a clue what voltage it
> will tolerate.  I've found some that will operate from 6 to 14VDC,
> while others need 12.000000 volt regulated.  This makes running off a
> 12V battery, which can be anywhere from 11 to 16VDC.  Usually, that
> means reverse engineering the devices power supply regulator and
> measuring what happens with a variable voltage bench supply.

I assumed the nominally 12/24/48v would need to go through a SMPSU to make it real 12v.

> 3.  There are a few companies that like to make my life miserable by
> supplying AC or positive ground wall warts.  These do not fit easily
> into a DC bus/rail type arrangement.

Things that take ac warts normally have a BR+C on the input, so they run fine off dc. Maybe you have some exceptions. I don't encounter many positive grounded warts.

> >> by thinking that I had working utility power.  I switched to kerosene
> >> and propane lamps for emergency lighting and have not had that problem
> >> again.
> 
> >those are way more reliable than electric light IME. Cheap too.
> >NT
> 
> Not really.  The mantles are fragile.  The glass globe is fragile. The

sure. Battery systems are still less reliable. Hang your lights where they won't get whacked.

> kerosene stinks.  Pumping the kerosene lantern twice per hour gets a
> bit a bit tiresome. 

propane/butane are easier & safer and don't whiff

> Remembering to clean the dust off the lantern has
> been a problem. 

store them with covers

> Refilling a hot lantern in the dark is dangerous. LED
> lights would probably be better and easier, but I prefer mantle type
> lights because the light seems rather "relaxing" while LED's tend to
> be "harsh".  Incidentally, I currently have 6 assorted Coleman
> lanterns, down from about 12 a few years ago.  All are functional.
> Some of my friends are collectors and have many more.

We rarely lose power over here, and when it happens it's not for long enough to be a real problem. Having maintained both electric & gas backup lighting I'd choose gas any day, far more reliable long term. I'm not sure why you're refilling lights in the dark if you have 12 of them.


NT

On 07 Feb 2018 18:50:17 GMT, Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> Developing world?  A fairly high percentage of people in Africa have
>> cell phones or smartphones (to discourage POTS line copper theft):

>Over here, making such a statement would result in you being called
>a RACIST and being trending on Twitter all day.

If that were true, then the national telecom policy of most 3rd world
countries would also be considered "racist".  Even before copper theft
became a problem, it was more expensive to install and maintain a
copper POTS line than to build cell sites and hand out cell phones.
When the increased price of copper made copper theft profitable, some
countries decided that it would be better and cheaper if they
subsidized cell phones for the GUM (great unwashed masses) rather than
subsidizing reluctant telephone monopolies into installing more
copper.  It's a good thing they did, because at this time, there are 7
billion people on the planet and about the same number of cell phone
subscriptions.  
"More people around the world have cell phones than ever had
land-lines"
<https://qz.com/179897/more-people-around-the-world-have-cell-phones-than-ever-had-land-lines/>
My guess(tm) is this started when there were about 5.5 billion people
on the planet and cell phone penetration was much less.  Can you
imagine what the country would be like with about 3 billion additional
POTS phone lines?  Telephone poles and wires everywhere.  

Actually, no imagination required.  Here's some photos of a POTS phone
system in Beirut Lebanon:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Beirut-Telco/index.html>
and telephone lines in India:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=telephone+lines+india&tbm=isch>

So, you should thank the copper thieves for providing the final
incentive for Pan Cellphonia (cell phones everywhere) and not
installing additional telephone poles and wires everywhere.


-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558