On 01/09/2018 02:26 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:> On Tuesday, 9 January 2018 19:21:06 UTC, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> On 01/09/2018 01:24 PM, oldschool@tubes.com wrote: >>> On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:09:52 -0600, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote: >>>> oldschool@tubes.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I woundn't own a Dell if it was free. They are the worst brand sold. >>>>> They use parts made only for their systems. Even their case fans are >>>>> made just for Dell, and they cost a fortune. I have my preferred brands, >>>>> even though I build my own desktop machines, but Dell is not even on my >>>>> list. I'll leave them in the store so someone else can waste their money >>>>> on them and then dispose of them. >>>>> >>>>> Dell is Garbage !!! >>>> I love Dells! I have found the commercial-grade models to be VERY good. >>>> I have had several Dell destop (Optiplex) machines run over 12 years in 24/7 >>>> operation. Yes, a lot of stuff in them is special, for instance the fans >>>> are made to be extra low-noise. Who cares, as you can put new bearings in >>>> them if they get noisy, or buy replacements on eBay. >>>> >>>> I have also had really good luck with their laptops, but again, there are >>>> some really great models and some that are a bit mediocre. I buy all my >>>> Dell boxes used for, usually, under $100 delivered. >>>> >>>> I did just have a motherboard go bad. First, it was bad capacitors, but >>>> then it just got sick. Possibly it is a bad capacitor with no visible >>>> signs. I only replaced the obvious ones. >>>> >>>> Jon >>> >>> All brands go bad eventually, but I have not been impressed at all by >>> Dell. My preference is Lenovo. I am posting this from an 18 year old >>> Lenovo computer running Win98. >> >> If it's an 18 years old Thinkpad, it's an IBM and not a Lenovo! >> >> I did have to replace the original power >>> supply (which was under rated), but thats probably because I added a >>> bunch of drives and stuff. Otherwise it's still the original motherboard >>> which has never needed any repair aside from changing the CMOS battery. >>> I run this system to the limit too, as far as RAM and drives. >>> >>> When I changed the power supply, I went from 100W to 350W. More than >>> enough... >> >> I have probably 20 Lenovos of various vintages stashed away--T42s for >> DOSish things and T410-T430 for daily use. >> >> Cheers >> >> Phil Hobbs >> >> (Posting this from a 24-core AMD server that doesn't have a management >> engine and doesn't suffer from the recently-disclosed hardware bugs.) :) > > Some of the old IBM Thinkpads were pretty nice. Some less so. Too ancient for much use now though. > > > NT >Someplace I still have a couple of Butterflies, the ones with the folding keyboard. It was designed by a friend of mine, the late great John Karidis. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net https://hobbs-eo.com
Shady Dell laptop practices
Started by ●January 8, 2018
Reply by ●January 9, 20182018-01-09
Reply by ●January 9, 20182018-01-09
On 01/09/2018 02:20 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 01/09/2018 01:24 PM, oldschool@tubes.com wrote: >> On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:09:52 -0600, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote: >> >>> oldschool@tubes.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I woundn't own a Dell if it was free. They are the worst brand sold. >>>> They use parts made only for their systems. Even their case fans are >>>> made just for Dell, and they cost a fortune. I have my preferred brands, >>>> even though I build my own desktop machines, but Dell is not even on my >>>> list. I'll leave them in the store so someone else can waste their money >>>> on them and then dispose of them. >>>> >>>> Dell is Garbage !!! >>> I love Dells! I have found the commercial-grade models to be VERY good. >>> I have had several Dell destop (Optiplex) machines run over 12 years in 24/7 >>> operation. Yes, a lot of stuff in them is special, for instance the fans >>> are made to be extra low-noise. Who cares, as you can put new bearings in >>> them if they get noisy, or buy replacements on eBay. >>> >>> I have also had really good luck with their laptops, but again, there are >>> some really great models and some that are a bit mediocre. I buy all my >>> Dell boxes used for, usually, under $100 delivered. >>> >>> I did just have a motherboard go bad. First, it was bad capacitors, but >>> then it just got sick. Possibly it is a bad capacitor with no visible >>> signs. I only replaced the obvious ones. >>> >>> Jon >> >> All brands go bad eventually, but I have not been impressed at all by >> Dell. My preference is Lenovo. I am posting this from an 18 year old >> Lenovo computer running Win98. > > If it's an 18 years old Thinkpad, it's an IBM and not a Lenovo! > > I did have to replace the original power >> supply (which was under rated), but thats probably because I added a >> bunch of drives and stuff. Otherwise it's still the original motherboard >> which has never needed any repair aside from changing the CMOS battery. >> I run this system to the limit too, as far as RAM and drives. >> >> When I changed the power supply, I went from 100W to 350W. More than >> enough... > > I have probably 20 Lenovos of various vintages stashed away--T42s for > DOSish things and T410-T430 for daily use. > > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs > > (Posting this from a 24-core AMD server that doesn't have a management > engine and doesn't suffer from the recently-disclosed hardware bugs.) :) >"Spectre" in theory affects anything with non-trivial branch-prediction/OoO, so more-or-less any desktop processor made in the 21st century.
Reply by ●January 9, 20182018-01-09
On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 14:20:58 -0500, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:>> All brands go bad eventually, but I have not been impressed at all by >> Dell. My preference is Lenovo. I am posting this from an 18 year old >> Lenovo computer running Win98. > >If it's an 18 years old Thinkpad, it's an IBM and not a Lenovo!Good question. I'm not real sure. It's probably an IBM. Its not in the original case, the replacement power supply did not fit so I changed cases.> > I did have to replace the original power >> supply (which was under rated), but thats probably because I added a >> bunch of drives and stuff. Otherwise it's still the original motherboard >> which has never needed any repair aside from changing the CMOS battery. >> I run this system to the limit too, as far as RAM and drives. >> >> When I changed the power supply, I went from 100W to 350W. More than >> enough... > >I have probably 20 Lenovos of various vintages stashed away--T42s for >DOSish things and T410-T430 for daily use. >I do have a T43 Lenovo laptop, which I use all the time. I have XP on that one. Aside from putting in a bigger hard drive and replacing the battery, it's original. My only complaint is the sound has always been weak, but a small amp and external speakers solved that.>Cheers > >Phil Hobbs
Reply by ●January 9, 20182018-01-09
On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:09:52 -0600, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote:>oldschool@tubes.com wrote: > > >> I woundn't own a Dell if it was free. They are the worst brand sold. >> They use parts made only for their systems. Even their case fans are >> made just for Dell, and they cost a fortune. I have my preferred brands, >> even though I build my own desktop machines, but Dell is not even on my >> list. I'll leave them in the store so someone else can waste their money >> on them and then dispose of them. >> >> Dell is Garbage !!! >I love Dells! I have found the commercial-grade models to be VERY good. >I have had several Dell destop (Optiplex) machines run over 12 years in 24/7 >operation. Yes, a lot of stuff in them is special, for instance the fans >are made to be extra low-noise. Who cares, as you can put new bearings in >them if they get noisy, or buy replacements on eBay. > >I have also had really good luck with their laptops, but again, there are >some really great models and some that are a bit mediocre. I buy all my >Dell boxes used for, usually, under $100 delivered. > >I did just have a motherboard go bad. First, it was bad capacitors, but >then it just got sick. Possibly it is a bad capacitor with no visible >signs. I only replaced the obvious ones.My work computer is a Dell Precision 5520 (quad-core Xeon, 32GB). It's pig compare to my own Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Yoga (dual-core I7-6600U), despite the Dell being over $1000 more than the Lenovo. The Thunderbolt connection on the Dell doesn't work (won't connect to their dock), either, so the Dock that's supposed to be used with it, is useless. The Dell has been nothing but trouble, while the Thinkpad has been nearly flawless. The OLED touchscreen display on the Thinkpad is awesome, too.
Reply by ●January 9, 20182018-01-09
On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 7:04:00 AM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:> On some of the inexpensive Dell laptops they implement a > hardware-lockout system intended to prevent you from using aftermarket > charger bricks to charge the battery. The way they do this is there's a > chip in the Dell charger that contains a unique identifier...It isn't just Dell. My MacBook knows the serial number on its charger, as well as the battery. Hopefully, there's no software misbehavior on those readings (they'd be interesting in case of a safety recall, though: Apple has done a few of those when a problem emerged). If there was a buffer-overflow exploit possible on charger serial number readout, how would anyone find out? What if there were a back door that required a sequence of such numbers? It's rather a spooky possibility, and not a pretty one.
Reply by ●January 9, 20182018-01-09
In article <p30dle$26q$1@dont-email.me>, erichpwagner@hotmail.com says...> > On 08/01/2018 15:03, bitrex wrote: > > On some of the inexpensive Dell laptops they implement a > > hardware-lockout system intended to prevent you from using aftermarket > > charger bricks to charge the battery. The way they do this is there's a > > chip in the Dell charger that contains a unique identifier which a chip > > on the laptop mobo requests from it on startup over a one-wire interface. > > > > If on boot the BIOS can't confirm that the lockout chip on the mobo has > > asserted the "OEM OK" pin or whatever the BIOS then proceeds to muck > > around with the processor MSRs (model-specific registers) and alter > > their state, specifically the BD_PROCHOT register, which is a flag bit > > that is usually controlled by the motherboard temperature sensor. > > > > Flipping that makes the processor think the motherboard is overheating, > > which disables battery charging and has the additional nice "feature" of > > throttling the processor down to around 400MHz from 2.8 GHz or whatever. > > So not only can you not charge the battery you can't really use the > > laptop on an aftermarket brick even when plugged into the wall. Also > > there's then no way to tell if the laptop mobo is _actually_ overheating > > in that state. > > > > Good news is that the MSRs are accessible via software, so it's not hard > > to write a script that runs after the OS start to flip the bit back, and > > everything is back to normal. > > My Dell laptop charger used a Dallas-Maxim DS2401 serial number 1-wire > device. I didn't know if Dell bought a block of pre-assigned ID numbers > of whether any 1-wire ID would work. > > When the Dell charger died I transplanted the TO-92 sized (easy to > handle) DS2401 from out the original into a kludged splice in the cable > of the replacement charger - which claims to have enough current > capacity. The laptop is happy. > > pigletWhy not simply solder the ID chip inside the laptop at the proper pin and then use what ever comes to mind for a supply ?
Reply by ●January 10, 20182018-01-10
On 10/01/2018 01:24, M Philbrook wrote:> In article <p30dle$26q$1@dont-email.me>, erichpwagner@hotmail.com > says... >> >> On 08/01/2018 15:03, bitrex wrote: >>> On some of the inexpensive Dell laptops they implement a >>> hardware-lockout system intended to prevent you from using aftermarket >>> charger bricks to charge the battery. The way they do this is there's a >>> chip in the Dell charger that contains a unique identifier which a chip >>> on the laptop mobo requests from it on startup over a one-wire interface. >>> >>> If on boot the BIOS can't confirm that the lockout chip on the mobo has >>> asserted the "OEM OK" pin or whatever the BIOS then proceeds to muck >>> around with the processor MSRs (model-specific registers) and alter >>> their state, specifically the BD_PROCHOT register, which is a flag bit >>> that is usually controlled by the motherboard temperature sensor. >>> >>> Flipping that makes the processor think the motherboard is overheating, >>> which disables battery charging and has the additional nice "feature" of >>> throttling the processor down to around 400MHz from 2.8 GHz or whatever. >>> So not only can you not charge the battery you can't really use the >>> laptop on an aftermarket brick even when plugged into the wall. Also >>> there's then no way to tell if the laptop mobo is _actually_ overheating >>> in that state. >>> >>> Good news is that the MSRs are accessible via software, so it's not hard >>> to write a script that runs after the OS start to flip the bit back, and >>> everything is back to normal. >> >> My Dell laptop charger used a Dallas-Maxim DS2401 serial number 1-wire >> device. I didn't know if Dell bought a block of pre-assigned ID numbers >> of whether any 1-wire ID would work. >> >> When the Dell charger died I transplanted the TO-92 sized (easy to >> handle) DS2401 from out the original into a kludged splice in the cable >> of the replacement charger - which claims to have enough current >> capacity. The laptop is happy. >> >> piglet > > Why not simply solder the ID chip inside the laptop at the proper pin > and then use what ever comes to mind for a supply ? >Two reasons: 1. It kept the option open of using a genuine Dell charger if one became available; 2. I had not at the time ever opened that laptop and saw no reason to open a potential can of worms. piglet
Reply by ●January 10, 20182018-01-10
"whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message news:32aa8bf4-feea-477b-a6e4-e05efbfe1bc9@googlegroups.com...> If there was a buffer-overflow exploit possible on charger serial number > readout, how would anyone find out? What if there were a back door > that required a sequence of such numbers? It's rather a spooky > possibility, > and not a pretty one.Not a very practical one, though. If you have physical access to the computer, you can plug in a USB drive and perform tons of already well known attacks. Maybe as a tracker and logger system, but who knows what kind of data is accessible over the battery bus. (If it's on the SMBus, potentially quite a lot!) Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/
Reply by ●January 10, 20182018-01-10
On 01/10/2018 04:58 AM, Tim Williams wrote:> "whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:32aa8bf4-feea-477b-a6e4-e05efbfe1bc9@googlegroups.com... >> If there was a buffer-overflow exploit possible on charger serial number >> readout, how would anyone find out?��� What if there were a back door >> that required a sequence of such numbers?� It's rather a spooky >> possibility, >> and not a pretty one. > > Not a very practical one, though. If you have physical access to the > computer, you can plug in a USB drive and perform tons of already well > known attacks. > > Maybe as a tracker and logger system, but who knows what kind of data is > accessible over the battery bus.� (If it's on the SMBus, potentially > quite a lot!) > > Tim >You could sell aftermarket bricks with the hypothetical readout exploit pre-installed, and then once the laptop was owned use its own network connection to phone home with the goods
Reply by ●January 10, 20182018-01-10
"bitrex" <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote in message news:MOo5C.256967$qV5.167500@fx37.iad...> You could sell aftermarket bricks with the hypothetical readout exploit > pre-installed, and then once the laptop was owned use its own network > connection to phone home with the goodsMight as well toss in Wifi, Bluetooth and cellular modules, mostly to listen but occasionally poke at things perhaps. Such things are also quite available today, a little Wifi AP to throw behind a bush, or plug in to an out-of-the-way outlet. Lots of fun/hijinx in the IPSec crowd these days. :^) Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/
