On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 20:11:57 -0500, Peabody <waybackNO584SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote:>Steve Wilson says... > > > I think the problem is not so much measuring the battery > > voltage as much as convincing the alternator to ignore > > the commands from the PCM and set the charging voltage > > to 14.5V. Then the battery will be fully charged, even > > on short trips. > >My Honda keeps the alternator at 14.4V so long as the >headlights are on. That shouldn't be necessary, but seems >to work.This is a design group... roll your own regulator already... sense the voltage AT the battery, use a proper TC (measure temperature AT battery)... trivial to do. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I'm looking for work... see my website. Thinking outside the box...producing elegant & economic solutions.
Automotive electronics - Honda charging system
Started by ●December 7, 2016
Reply by ●July 18, 20172017-07-18
Reply by ●July 18, 20172017-07-18
Den onsdag den 19. juli 2017 kl. 03.51.06 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 20:11:57 -0500, Peabody > <waybackNO584SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >Steve Wilson says... > > > > > I think the problem is not so much measuring the battery > > > voltage as much as convincing the alternator to ignore > > > the commands from the PCM and set the charging voltage > > > to 14.5V. Then the battery will be fully charged, even > > > on short trips. > > > >My Honda keeps the alternator at 14.4V so long as the > >headlights are on. That shouldn't be necessary, but seems > >to work. > > This is a design group... roll your own regulator already... sense the > voltage AT the battery, use a proper TC (measure temperature AT > battery)... trivial to do.unless of course result is that the ECU tells you that something is wrong with the charging and you to get to service
Reply by ●July 18, 20172017-07-18
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 19:07:14 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>Den onsdag den 19. juli 2017 kl. 03.51.06 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson: >> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 20:11:57 -0500, Peabody >> <waybackNO584SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >Steve Wilson says... >> > >> > > I think the problem is not so much measuring the battery >> > > voltage as much as convincing the alternator to ignore >> > > the commands from the PCM and set the charging voltage >> > > to 14.5V. Then the battery will be fully charged, even >> > > on short trips. >> > >> >My Honda keeps the alternator at 14.4V so long as the >> >headlights are on. That shouldn't be necessary, but seems >> >to work. >> >> This is a design group... roll your own regulator already... sense the >> voltage AT the battery, use a proper TC (measure temperature AT >> battery)... trivial to do. > >unless of course result is that the ECU tells you that something is wrong >with the charging and you to get to serviceUnless you know what you are doing ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I'm looking for work... see my website. Thinking outside the box...producing elegant & economic solutions.
Reply by ●July 18, 20172017-07-18
Peabody <waybackNO584SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote:> Steve Wilson says...> > I think the problem is not so much measuring the battery > > voltage as much as convincing the alternator to ignore > > the commands from the PCM and set the charging voltage > > to 14.5V. Then the battery will be fully charged, even on short > > trips.> My Honda keeps the alternator at 14.4V so long as the > headlights are on. That shouldn't be necessary, but seems > to work.That is wierd. What is the voltage with the headlights off? Maybe the battery contacts have corroded. Have you cleaned them with a wire brush? I found that a thin coating of vaseline helps improve the connection and reduce corrosion from the sulphuric acid.
Reply by ●July 18, 20172017-07-18
Den onsdag den 19. juli 2017 kl. 04.24.25 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 19:07:14 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen > <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: > > >Den onsdag den 19. juli 2017 kl. 03.51.06 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson: > >> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 20:11:57 -0500, Peabody > >> <waybackNO584SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > >> >Steve Wilson says... > >> > > >> > > I think the problem is not so much measuring the battery > >> > > voltage as much as convincing the alternator to ignore > >> > > the commands from the PCM and set the charging voltage > >> > > to 14.5V. Then the battery will be fully charged, even > >> > > on short trips. > >> > > >> >My Honda keeps the alternator at 14.4V so long as the > >> >headlights are on. That shouldn't be necessary, but seems > >> >to work. > >> > >> This is a design group... roll your own regulator already... sense the > >> voltage AT the battery, use a proper TC (measure temperature AT > >> battery)... trivial to do. > > > >unless of course result is that the ECU tells you that something is wrong > >with the charging and you to get to service > > Unless you know what you are doing ;-)it is not the 80's
Reply by ●July 18, 20172017-07-18
On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 7:29:34 PM UTC-7, Steve Wilson wrote: ..> > My Honda keeps the alternator at 14.4V so long as the > > headlights are on. That shouldn't be necessary, but seems > > to work. > > That is wierd. What is the voltage with the headlights off? > > Maybe the battery contacts have corroded. Have you cleaned them with a wire > brush? I found that a thin coating of vaseline helps improve the connection > and reduce corrosion from the sulphuric acid.I have a GM service manual describing the charging protocol and "Headlight mode" is one of the 6 voltage regulation modes where it will be regulated between 13.9 and 14.5v depending upon temperature. There is also a "Battery Sulfation" mode where it regulates the voltage between 13.9 and 15.5 for about 5 minutes if the battery has been below 13.2v for 30 minutes. Battery recharging in modern cars is complicated by the fact that in the effort to reduce weight, cost and maintenance the battery can't tolerate the high sustained voltage that older flooded cell batteries could. If the voltage is too high it will lose water and need topping up, which isn't easy with a maintenance-free battery or the thin grid will corrode excessively. Too low and the effects that have been described here become noticeable - so its a compromise. This page on Battery University describes the situation (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery) . For maximum battery life around 13.8v to 14.4 is recommended. kevin
Reply by ●July 19, 20172017-07-19
On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 2:19:33 PM UTC-7, Steve Wilson wrote:> You still never made it to 14.5V > It looks like you need to put your battery on charge after every trip.The Black & Decker 2 amp battery charger/maintainer detected full charge and switched to maintain mode. The voltage read 14.26 volts at that point. That voltage is consistent with the 14.2-14.5 volt range mentioned on the W8JI website that I referenced earlier. I think the car will be fine if driven several times per week. As you may recall, the battery read 12.85 volts last week the morning after driving the car. In thinking about the power supply test you mentioned, the narrow 0.1-0.2 volt band where the current increased sharply will likely vary quite a bit depending on the state of the battery. If you repeated that test with your current battery at 12.2 volts, the band would be in the low 12 volt region initially and then rise as surface charge builds up. If you had a fully charged battery plus a full surface charge, the band would likely be in the low to mid 14 volt range.
Reply by ●July 19, 20172017-07-19
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 19:52:23 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>Den onsdag den 19. juli 2017 kl. 04.24.25 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson: >> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 19:07:14 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen >> <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: >> >> >Den onsdag den 19. juli 2017 kl. 03.51.06 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson: >> >> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 20:11:57 -0500, Peabody >> >> <waybackNO584SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >Steve Wilson says... >> >> > >> >> > > I think the problem is not so much measuring the battery >> >> > > voltage as much as convincing the alternator to ignore >> >> > > the commands from the PCM and set the charging voltage >> >> > > to 14.5V. Then the battery will be fully charged, even >> >> > > on short trips. >> >> > >> >> >My Honda keeps the alternator at 14.4V so long as the >> >> >headlights are on. That shouldn't be necessary, but seems >> >> >to work. >> >> >> >> This is a design group... roll your own regulator already... sense the >> >> voltage AT the battery, use a proper TC (measure temperature AT >> >> battery)... trivial to do. >> > >> >unless of course result is that the ECU tells you that something is wrong >> >with the charging and you to get to service >> >> Unless you know what you are doing ;-) > >it is not the 80's > >I see you have no experience tricking an ECU ?;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I'm looking for work... see my website. Thinking outside the box...producing elegant & economic solutions.
Reply by ●July 19, 20172017-07-19
Steve Wilson wrote:> > I really like the idea of not losing power steering if the engine > quits. If you have ever lost the engine in a high speed curve on the > side of a mountain, you may agree there is probably little that is so > frightening.Then you should never try having the hood latch ripping loose from the body, the left hinge pulling loose, the hood smashing the reservoir on the master cylinder, and damaging the carburetor so you can't slow down in afternoon rush hour traffic on I-75 in Cincinnati. The hood twisted 180 degrees, and caught on the wiper post, so I couldn't see, I had no brakes, and the engine was running wide open. The shuttle bus I used to ride from Ft. Greeley to Fairbanks back in the '70s went over the side of the mountain, a few weeks after I got out of the Army. Friends of mine were on it. The ended up in the hospital, but only because it was caught in some trees, rather than falling all the way to the ground. -- Never piss off an Engineer! They don't get mad. They don't get even. They go for over unity! ;-)
Reply by ●July 19, 20172017-07-19
kt77 <kawill70@gmail.com> wrote:> On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 2:19:33 PM UTC-7, Steve Wilson wrote:>> You still never made it to 14.5V >> It looks like you need to put your battery on charge after every trip.> The Black & Decker 2 amp battery charger/maintainer detected full charge > and switched to maintain mode. The voltage read 14.26 volts at that > point. That voltage is consistent with the 14.2-14.5 volt range > mentioned on the W8JI website that I referenced earlier.Your method charging will put charge into the battery. However, it does not fully charge the battery, which means you won't get the performance and long life it could have. The only way to fully charge the battery is to use saturation charging. This charges at a constant current until the set voltage is reached, when it switches to constant voltage mode. The current then decays to almost zero. The charger is a cccv, for constnt current, constant voltage, and is the kind I use. My set point is 14.5V. As I have mentioned before, just a few tenths of a volt less that 14.5V means very little current flows into the battery and it will not do saturation charging. You can read about it in the Battery University article, "BU-403: Charging Lead Acid", at http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery See figure 1. There are a number of other articles on lead acid batteries listed that you may wish to read.
