On Thursday, 19 June 2014 00:50:07 UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:> On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 07:40:52 -0700, Jim Thompson > > <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > > > > >On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 21:57:08 -0700, John Larkin > > ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > > > > > >>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 21:35:21 -0700, Jim Thompson > > >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > > >> > > >>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 19:44:42 -0700, John Larkin > > >>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:23:41 -0700, Jim Thompson > > >>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:15:32 -0700, Jim Thompson > > >>>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 12:02:40 -0700, John Larkin > > >>>>>><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 09:38:18 -0700, Jim Thompson > > >>>>>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>Last time I tested several 2N7000 Spice models (2005), there was huge > > >>>>>>>>variance between them, and some down-right non-physical behavior. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>Has anyone found a better 2N7000 model since then? > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> ...Jim Thompson > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>The 2N7000/2N7002 parts themselves vary a lot between manufacturers, > > >>>>>>>which is why some of our products specify a specific manufacturer for > > >>>>>>>these parts. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>What non-physical behavior are you seeing? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>All but the Supertex model failed to model ANY behavior below > > >>>>>>threshold, and the Supertex model had discontinuities in the ID/VDS > > >>>>>>curve blending... guaranteed to cause simulator convergence issues. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ...Jim Thompson > > >>>>> > > >>>>>I forgot to reference my old post (4/6/2005)... > > >>>>> > > >>>>>http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/Compare2N7000Models.pdf > > >>>>> > > >>>>>Second page tells it all. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ...Jim Thompson > > >>>> > > >>>>If you're actually designing boards with 2N7000s, any of those curves is about > > >>>>as good as any other. Real-life parts will be all over the map. > > >>> > > >>>You didn't notice the discontinuities? > > >>> > > >>> ...Jim Thompson > > >> > > >>Sure, but they are down in the "noise" of part-part differences. > > > > > >Refer back in the history of this group, and Win Hill's concern about > > >operation in the subthreshold region. Use as a low noise amplifier is > > >quite different from just using the device as a switch. > > > > > > ...Jim Thompson > > > > Here's a graph that I found in our PDATA folder for the 2N7000. I don't know > > where it came from, possibly from Win. > > > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Parts/Fets/2n7000_off_leakage.pdf > > > > (people should sign and date everything that they create) > > > > What does "subthreshold" mean anyhow? It seeme to me that specified gate > > thresholds are based on arbitrary drain currents. That curve above has no > > threshold. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > John Larkin Highland Technology Inc > > www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com > > > > Precision electronic instrumentationThe pdf document properties state: Author: Winfield Hill Created: 28/03/2005 8:23:49 AM Modified: 28/03/2005 8:35:17 AM HTH Chris.
2N7000 Spice Model
Started by ●June 17, 2014
Reply by ●June 18, 20142014-06-18
Reply by ●June 18, 20142014-06-18
On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 17:04:03 -0700 (PDT), Chris <chris.863@live.com> wrote:>On Thursday, 19 June 2014 00:50:07 UTC+10, John Larkin wrote: >> On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 07:40:52 -0700, Jim Thompson >> >> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 21:57:08 -0700, John Larkin >> >> ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 21:35:21 -0700, Jim Thompson >> >> >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 19:44:42 -0700, John Larkin >> >> >>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:23:41 -0700, Jim Thompson >> >> >>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:15:32 -0700, Jim Thompson >> >> >>>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 12:02:40 -0700, John Larkin >> >> >>>>>><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 09:38:18 -0700, Jim Thompson >> >> >>>>>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>Last time I tested several 2N7000 Spice models (2005), there was huge >> >> >>>>>>>>variance between them, and some down-right non-physical behavior. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>>Has anyone found a better 2N7000 model since then? >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> ...Jim Thompson >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>The 2N7000/2N7002 parts themselves vary a lot between manufacturers, >> >> >>>>>>>which is why some of our products specify a specific manufacturer for >> >> >>>>>>>these parts. >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>What non-physical behavior are you seeing? >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>All but the Supertex model failed to model ANY behavior below >> >> >>>>>>threshold, and the Supertex model had discontinuities in the ID/VDS >> >> >>>>>>curve blending... guaranteed to cause simulator convergence issues. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> ...Jim Thompson >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>I forgot to reference my old post (4/6/2005)... >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/Compare2N7000Models.pdf >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>Second page tells it all. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> ...Jim Thompson >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>If you're actually designing boards with 2N7000s, any of those curves is about >> >> >>>>as good as any other. Real-life parts will be all over the map. >> >> >>> >> >> >>>You didn't notice the discontinuities? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >> >> >> >> >>Sure, but they are down in the "noise" of part-part differences. >> >> > >> >> >Refer back in the history of this group, and Win Hill's concern about >> >> >operation in the subthreshold region. Use as a low noise amplifier is >> >> >quite different from just using the device as a switch. >> >> > >> >> > ...Jim Thompson >> >> >> >> Here's a graph that I found in our PDATA folder for the 2N7000. I don't know >> >> where it came from, possibly from Win. >> >> >> >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Parts/Fets/2n7000_off_leakage.pdf >> >> >> >> (people should sign and date everything that they create) >> >> >> >> What does "subthreshold" mean anyhow? It seeme to me that specified gate >> >> thresholds are based on arbitrary drain currents. That curve above has no >> >> threshold. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> John Larkin Highland Technology Inc >> >> www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com >> >> >> >> Precision electronic instrumentation > >The pdf document properties state: > >Author: Winfield Hill >Created: 28/03/2005 8:23:49 AM >Modified: 28/03/2005 8:35:17 AM > >HTH >Chris.Cool. I suspected him. If Win did it, it's right. What ever happened to Win Hill? -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●June 18, 20142014-06-18
On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 17:06:33 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 17:04:03 -0700 (PDT), Chris <chris.863@live.com> >wrote: > >>On Thursday, 19 June 2014 00:50:07 UTC+10, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 07:40:52 -0700, Jim Thompson >>> >>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 21:57:08 -0700, John Larkin >>> >>> ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 21:35:21 -0700, Jim Thompson >>> >>> >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 19:44:42 -0700, John Larkin >>> >>> >>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:23:41 -0700, Jim Thompson >>> >>> >>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:15:32 -0700, Jim Thompson >>> >>> >>>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 12:02:40 -0700, John Larkin >>> >>> >>>>>><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 09:38:18 -0700, Jim Thompson >>> >>> >>>>>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>Last time I tested several 2N7000 Spice models (2005), there was huge >>> >>> >>>>>>>>variance between them, and some down-right non-physical behavior. >>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>Has anyone found a better 2N7000 model since then? >>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> ...Jim Thompson >>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>The 2N7000/2N7002 parts themselves vary a lot between manufacturers, >>> >>> >>>>>>>which is why some of our products specify a specific manufacturer for >>> >>> >>>>>>>these parts. >>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>What non-physical behavior are you seeing? >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>All but the Supertex model failed to model ANY behavior below >>> >>> >>>>>>threshold, and the Supertex model had discontinuities in the ID/VDS >>> >>> >>>>>>curve blending... guaranteed to cause simulator convergence issues. >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> ...Jim Thompson >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>I forgot to reference my old post (4/6/2005)... >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/Compare2N7000Models.pdf >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>Second page tells it all. >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> ...Jim Thompson >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>>If you're actually designing boards with 2N7000s, any of those curves is about >>> >>> >>>>as good as any other. Real-life parts will be all over the map. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>You didn't notice the discontinuities? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>Sure, but they are down in the "noise" of part-part differences. >>> >>> > >>> >>> >Refer back in the history of this group, and Win Hill's concern about >>> >>> >operation in the subthreshold region. Use as a low noise amplifier is >>> >>> >quite different from just using the device as a switch. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > ...Jim Thompson >>> >>> >>> >>> Here's a graph that I found in our PDATA folder for the 2N7000. I don't know >>> >>> where it came from, possibly from Win. >>> >>> >>> >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Parts/Fets/2n7000_off_leakage.pdf >>> >>> >>> >>> (people should sign and date everything that they create) >>> >>> >>> >>> What does "subthreshold" mean anyhow? It seeme to me that specified gate >>> >>> thresholds are based on arbitrary drain currents. That curve above has no >>> >>> threshold. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> John Larkin Highland Technology Inc >>> >>> www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com >>> >>> >>> >>> Precision electronic instrumentation >> >>The pdf document properties state: >> >>Author: Winfield Hill >>Created: 28/03/2005 8:23:49 AM >>Modified: 28/03/2005 8:35:17 AM >> >>HTH >>Chris. > >Cool. I suspected him. If Win did it, it's right. > >What ever happened to Win Hill?He's still here, he just avoids cretins ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
