On 7/19/2013 8:57 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:34:08 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs > <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in > <ksbbch$s7i$1@dont-email.me>: > >>> This is how it SHOULD be done: >>> http://panteltje.com/pub/simple_resonant_voltage_converter_IMG_3957.JPG >>> >>> only 10 components, >>> better output regulation, >>> better efficiency, >>> less RFI, >>> better reliability, >>> better MTBF, >>> less size, >>> cheaper, >>> etc etc. >>> and as old as the world: >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/io-1.jpg >>> 1985 >>> EEPROM programmer programming volts generator. >>> >>> I have the same circuit in an other programmer I designed, still working after >>> 30 years or more. >> >> Glad to see that your ego remains unimpaired as well. ;) > > Yes I am glad too:-) > > >> Having grown up as a discrete-circuit designer, I like the resonant >> converter, and if I didn't need a higher-current negative supply as >> well, I might well do it that way, if I could find a standard part that >> would work for the transformer. > > If your designs require 'standard parts', well in short, US would never have made it to the moon. > Poeple have fobia for coils and transformers, especially winding a wire around some former it seems. > Should be a training requirement.I wind my own coils all the time for one-offs. Getting hundreds of special coils is a pain, however.> >> My gizmo piggybacks on an existing -15V supply, and requires two dual >> diodes, one quad resistor pack, and four cheap caps. > > Your load regulation sucks, always does with R3 R6 C5 C6 and diodes in series. > Your efficiency sucks for the same reason, you waste power in resistors and diode drops. > Where does V2 come from, it is floating?Check out the efficiency meter. It ignores the losses in the switching regulator chip, but otherwise it's the real deal. Including the -15, it comes out at almost 90% once the turn-on transient is over. And this is a photodiode bias supply, so it's going to need cap multipliers anyway. It's very simple to add shunt regulation to a cap multiplier, so that's what I usually do. And you were the guy who said that efficiency didn't matter in a 20 mA supply. ;)> You are driving R5 and R1 as load I presume, hardly any current at all. > This type of resonant converter I did draw can easily power some relais, > a very big industrial plant has boards with it I designed with that converter to isolate relays... > Probably no switcher needed, just an extra diode and capacitor (depends on how stable supply is). > Anyways now I know you have a fetish for Schotkeys on top of one for Ferry High value resistors.. > > No problem for me. > >> Yours requires a custom transformer, four caps, one resistor, and one >> transistor, and a dual diode. > > 10 parts, numbers are in the diagram.Mine needs seven parts, and costs a lot less than yours. The others are part of the -15V regulator. And no custom transformer. Did I mention that it doesn't need a custom transformer?> > >> I'd need the -15V switcher anyway, so my scheme is considerably simpler >> and cheaper than yours. What's insane about that? > > What is 'simpler?' > > ??????????????In the immortal words of Zaphod Beeblebrox, "Count the heads." ;) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA +1 845 480 2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
Flyback vs half-bridge
Started by ●July 16, 2013
Reply by ●July 19, 20132013-07-19
Reply by ●July 19, 20132013-07-19
On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2013 09:16:35 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in <51E93C33.4060701@electrooptical.net>:>I wind my own coils all the time for one-offs. Getting hundreds of >special coils is a pain, however. > >> >>> My gizmo piggybacks on an existing -15V supply, and requires two dual >>> diodes, one quad resistor pack, and four cheap caps. >> >> Your load regulation sucks, always does with R3 R6 C5 C6 and diodes in series. >> Your efficiency sucks for the same reason, you waste power in resistors and diode drops. >> Where does V2 come from, it is floating? > >Check out the efficiency meter. It ignores the losses in the switching >regulator chip, but otherwise it's the real deal. Including the -15, it >comes out at almost 90% once the turn-on transient is over.Sounds OK, a question, here it was 30 degrees C today indoors in the shadow, and I just went upstairs it it reads 35 C, just 2.5 C below normal body temp, so how would the Schottky's leakage be when say in the sun at 90 C? Would the leakage current be higher than the load current? ;-) There is a reason why I wrote 1N4148... But if you insist I can use a double Schottkey too, and now I have 9 parts, including the supply decoupling, that you cheated on by using a 'perfect zero Ri' voltage source. without it I have would have 8 parts, but hey, use finer wire and some more turns, and / or higher Al, and no need for the tuning cap, now I have 7 parts.>And this is a photodiode bias supply, so it's going to need cap >multipliers anyway. It's very simple to add shunt regulation to a cap >multiplier, so that's what I usually do.OK, how abouy this then: http://panteltje.com/pub/backup/PMT_regulated_power_supply_diagram_img_3182.jpg http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_generator_size_img_3174.jpg http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_generator_solder_side_img_3172.jpg http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_supply_with_regulator_img_3175.jpg One of those is stabilized, not shunt regulator ,jus tcontrol te hsupply volatge, yes series regulator makes heat too, but kV shunts need special measures. Note the little oscillator has no problem to make 1750 V with a hand wound transformer, plus all the taps.. Been in use for a year now I think.>And you were the guy who said that efficiency didn't matter in a 20 mA >supply. ;)Yes, but ruining it is an other matter altogether ;-)>> You are driving R5 and R1 as load I presume, hardly any current at all. >> This type of resonant converter I did draw can easily power some relais, >> a very big industrial plant has boards with it I designed with that converter to isolate relays... >> Probably no switcher needed, just an extra diode and capacitor (depends on how stable supply is). >> Anyways now I know you have a fetish for Schotkeys on top of one for Ferry High value resistors.. >> >> No problem for me. >> >>> Yours requires a custom transformer, four caps, one resistor, and one >>> transistor, and a dual diode. >> >> 10 parts, numbers are in the diagram. > >Mine needs seven parts, and costs a lot less than yours. The others are >part of the -15V regulator. And no custom transformer. Did I mention >that it doesn't need a custom transformer?I don't think it is cheaper. In the time you did the spice I wind 3 transformers... Time is money blah blah.>> >> >>> I'd need the -15V switcher anyway, so my scheme is considerably simpler >>> and cheaper than yours. What's insane about that? >> >> What is 'simpler?' >> >> ?????????????? > >In the immortal words of Zaphod Beeblebrox, "Count the heads." ;)Never met that guy, heads roll easily :-) Hey! http://www.gocomics.com/peanuts
Reply by ●July 19, 20132013-07-19
Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> wrote:> On a sunny day (Thu, 18 Jul 2013 03:01:08 GMT) it happened John K > <spam@me.not> wrote in <XnsA200EA29B73C5idtokenpost@69.16.179.20>:>>I really have to congratulate you. Yours is the best circuit I've seen >>so far, especially for eliminating noise from the ringing. You truly >>have a gift for design that most others lack.>>Thanks,>>JK> For Gods sake stop feeding the man's ego, you know how dangerous > bubbles can be.Do much work in nanovolts? Mix switchers and nanoamps? Phil does. He changed my long-held belief that switchers and nanovolts do not mix. This is a very big deal for me, since I no longer have to put up with huge heatsinks and impossible thermal problems. I suspect some others may have come to similar conclusions. I believe he is uplifting the entire spirit of this newsgroup, in contrast to the interminal battles and insults that prevailed until recently. Please allow the man credit for what he has accomplished. JK
Reply by ●July 19, 20132013-07-19
On 07/19/2013 10:25 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2013 09:16:35 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs > <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in > <51E93C33.4060701@electrooptical.net>: > >> I wind my own coils all the time for one-offs. Getting hundreds of >> special coils is a pain, however. >> >>> >>>> My gizmo piggybacks on an existing -15V supply, and requires two dual >>>> diodes, one quad resistor pack, and four cheap caps. >>> >>> Your load regulation sucks, always does with R3 R6 C5 C6 and diodes in series. >>> Your efficiency sucks for the same reason, you waste power in resistors and diode drops. >>> Where does V2 come from, it is floating? >> >> Check out the efficiency meter. It ignores the losses in the switching >> regulator chip, but otherwise it's the real deal. Including the -15, it >> comes out at almost 90% once the turn-on transient is over. > > Sounds OK, a question, > here it was 30 degrees C today indoors in the shadow, > and I just went upstairs it it reads 35 C, just 2.5 C below normal body temp, > so how would the Schottky's leakage be when say in the sun at 90 C? > Would the leakage current be higher than the load current? > ;-) > There is a reason why I wrote 1N4148... > But if you insist I can use a double Schottkey too, and now I have 9 parts, > including the supply decoupling, that you cheated on by using a 'perfect zero Ri' voltage source. > without it I have would have 8 parts, but hey, use finer wire and some more turns, and / or higher Al, > and no need for the tuning cap, now I have 7 parts. > > > >> And this is a photodiode bias supply, so it's going to need cap >> multipliers anyway. It's very simple to add shunt regulation to a cap >> multiplier, so that's what I usually do. > > > OK, how abouy this then: > http://panteltje.com/pub/backup/PMT_regulated_power_supply_diagram_img_3182.jpg > http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_generator_size_img_3174.jpg > http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_generator_solder_side_img_3172.jpg > http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_HV_supply_with_regulator_img_3175.jpgThat's a few more parts though. ;)> One of those is stabilized, not shunt regulator ,jus tcontrol te hsupply volatge, yes series regulator makes heat too, > but kV shunts need special measures. > Note the little oscillator has no problem to make 1750 V with a hand wound transformer, plus all the taps.. > Been in use for a year now I think.Yup, Hamamatsu has been selling that basic idea for decades. I expect they use an op amp for the voltage regulation.> > >> And you were the guy who said that efficiency didn't matter in a 20 mA >> supply. ;) > > Yes, but ruining it is an other matter altogether ;-)The resistors hardly cost any efficiency. They're there to protect the diodes from the turn-on surge, but a BAV99 is specified to take 1A for 1 ms nonrepetitive, 500 mA repetitive, so it doesn't need much. The current waveform is basically square, i.e. the duty cycle per arm is near 50%. Thus the load current sees an average of just about exactly 20 ohms, whereas the load is at least 100 times that, so the soft-start protection costs me at most 1% of efficiency.> > >>> You are driving R5 and R1 as load I presume, hardly any current at all. >>> This type of resonant converter I did draw can easily power some relais, >>> a very big industrial plant has boards with it I designed with that converter to isolate relays... >>> Probably no switcher needed, just an extra diode and capacitor (depends on how stable supply is). >>> Anyways now I know you have a fetish for Schotkeys on top of one for Ferry High value resistors.. >>> >>> No problem for me. >>> >>>> Yours requires a custom transformer, four caps, one resistor, and one >>>> transistor, and a dual diode. >>> >>> 10 parts, numbers are in the diagram. >> >> Mine needs seven parts, and costs a lot less than yours. The others are >> part of the -15V regulator. And no custom transformer. Did I mention >> that it doesn't need a custom transformer? > > I don't think it is cheaper. > In the time you did the spice I wind 3 transformers... > Time is money blah blah.For a one-off, I agree. For hundreds to thousands, not so.> >>> >>>> I'd need the -15V switcher anyway, so my scheme is considerably simpler >>>> and cheaper than yours. What's insane about that? >>> >>> What is 'simpler?' >>> >>> ?????????????? >> >> In the immortal words of Zaphod Beeblebrox, "Count the heads." ;) > > Never met that guy, heads roll easily :-)The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Literary comedy unsurpassed since the days of P. G. Wodehouse. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
Reply by ●July 19, 20132013-07-19
On 07/19/2013 10:55 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 07/19/2013 10:25 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:<sniiip>>> >>> And you were the guy who said that efficiency didn't matter in a 20 mA >>> supply. ;) >> >> Yes, but ruining it is an other matter altogether ;-) > > The resistors hardly cost any efficiency. They're there to protect the > diodes from the turn-on surge, but a BAV99 is specified to take 1A for 1 > ms nonrepetitive, 500 mA repetitive, so it doesn't need much. The > current waveform is basically square, i.e. the duty cycle per arm is > near 50%. Thus the load current sees an average of just about exactly > 20 ohms, whereas the load is at least 100 times that, so the soft-start > protection costs me at most 1% of efficiency. >10 ohms and 0.5%, my bad. ;) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
Reply by ●July 19, 20132013-07-19
On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2013 14:34:57 GMT) it happened John K <spam@me.not> wrote in <XnsA2026BA704164idtokenpost@69.16.179.20>:>Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On a sunny day (Thu, 18 Jul 2013 03:01:08 GMT) it happened John K >> <spam@me.not> wrote in <XnsA200EA29B73C5idtokenpost@69.16.179.20>: > >>>I really have to congratulate you. Yours is the best circuit I've seen >>>so far, especially for eliminating noise from the ringing. You truly >>>have a gift for design that most others lack. > >>>Thanks, > >>>JK > >> For Gods sake stop feeding the man's ego, you know how dangerous >> bubbles can be. > >Do much work in nanovolts?Actually I am way a the nanovolts right now :-) It is not really that little... And a lot of work still needs to happen.
Reply by ●July 19, 20132013-07-19
On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:55:10 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in <51E9534E.8010806@electrooptical.net>:>>> In the immortal words of Zaphod Beeblebrox, "Count the heads." ;) >> >> Never met that guy, heads roll easily :-) > >The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Literary comedy unsurpassed since >the days of P. G. Wodehouse.I have that on disk somewhere, but I think the answer to your question was 42. I, in retrospect think it is not really that good at all. Snoopy is more fun.
Reply by ●July 19, 20132013-07-19
On 07/19/2013 01:21 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:55:10 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs > <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in > <51E9534E.8010806@electrooptical.net>: > >>>> In the immortal words of Zaphod Beeblebrox, "Count the heads." ;) >>> >>> Never met that guy, heads roll easily :-) >> >> The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Literary comedy unsurpassed since >> the days of P. G. Wodehouse. > > I have that on disk somewhere, but I think the answer to your question was 42. > > I, in retrospect think it is not really that good at all. > Snoopy is more fun. >I expect it helps to be a native English speaker, and to have read a lot of old science fiction, because the humour is so atmospheric, like Wodehouse in his way. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
Reply by ●July 19, 20132013-07-19
On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2013 11:01:26 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in <t_ednZyRzLxbyXTMnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@supernews.com>:>On 07/19/2013 10:55 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> On 07/19/2013 10:25 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote: > ><sniiip> >>> >>>> And you were the guy who said that efficiency didn't matter in a 20 mA >>>> supply. ;) >>> >>> Yes, but ruining it is an other matter altogether ;-) >> >> The resistors hardly cost any efficiency. They're there to protect the >> diodes from the turn-on surge, but a BAV99 is specified to take 1A for 1 >> ms nonrepetitive, 500 mA repetitive, so it doesn't need much. The >> current waveform is basically square, i.e. the duty cycle per arm is >> near 50%. Thus the load current sees an average of just about exactly >> 20 ohms, whereas the load is at least 100 times that, so the soft-start >> protection costs me at most 1% of efficiency. >> > >10 ohms and 0.5%, my bad. ;)No problem spend an hour coding some standard from some official released pdf this morning, got stuck, started googling, realized that pdf has a typo, and I already wrote the right code some time ago. I can still use the new code for decoding SETI signals perhaps. Will leave it in :-) I did say: shit.
Reply by ●July 19, 20132013-07-19
On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:24:05 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in <51E97635.6050301@electrooptical.net>:>On 07/19/2013 01:21 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:55:10 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs >> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in >> <51E9534E.8010806@electrooptical.net>: >> >>>>> In the immortal words of Zaphod Beeblebrox, "Count the heads." ;) >>>> >>>> Never met that guy, heads roll easily :-) >>> >>> The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Literary comedy unsurpassed since >>> the days of P. G. Wodehouse. >> >> I have that on disk somewhere, but I think the answer to your question was 42. >> >> I, in retrospect think it is not really that good at all. >> Snoopy is more fun. >> > >I expect it helps to be a native English speaker, and to have read a lot >of old science fiction, because the humour is so atmospheric, like >Wodehouse in his way. > >Cheers > >Phil HobbsYes possible, I did not know English had humour?
