On Oct 10, 11:50=A0pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:> On Mon, 8 Oct 2012 06:27:05 -0700 (PDT), George Herold > > <gher...@teachspin.com> wrote: > >Hi SEB. =A0Well I sent an email to Don klipstein on this topic. =A0And > >have permission to copy his reply. > ><from Don K. below> > >2: =A0In incandescent traffic signals, the bulbs for yellow last > >longer than for red and green. =A0So even after being switched on > >and off about a million times, on-time is still a significant > >factor in life expectancy. > > That means for my proposed test comparing a 50% duty cycle flashing > light bulb, with one that is on continuously, the continuous light > bulb will burn out first. =A0That's the opposite of what I saw with the > theater marquee bulbs. =A0Now, I'm really tempted to run the experiment.Experiments can be very useful. I'd worry most about how you turn on the bulbs. Maybe just some simple relays? 1,000 hours isn't all that long. (or are you going to over-voltage the bulbs?) I guess I'd want at least 10 bulbs in each group. Say 60 watts..... 1200 kW-hrs. That's looking like more money than I'd want to spend on the electricity. George H.> > -- > Jeff Liebermann =A0 =A0 je...@cruzio.com > 150 Felker St #D =A0 =A0http://www.LearnByDestroying.com > Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com > Skype: JeffLiebermann =A0 =A0 AE6KS =A0 =A0831-336-2558
Using mobile phone as an internet radio
Started by ●October 2, 2012
Reply by ●October 11, 20122012-10-11
Reply by ●October 11, 20122012-10-11
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 03:13:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:> >Jeff Liebermann wrote: >> >> On Mon, 8 Oct 2012 06:27:05 -0700 (PDT), George Herold >> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: >> >> >Hi SEB. Well I sent an email to Don klipstein on this topic. And >> >have permission to copy his reply. >> ><from Don K. below> >> >> >2: In incandescent traffic signals, the bulbs for yellow last >> >longer than for red and green. So even after being switched on >> >and off about a million times, on-time is still a significant >> >factor in life expectancy. >> >> That means for my proposed test comparing a 50% duty cycle flashing >> light bulb, with one that is on continuously, the continuous light >> bulb will burn out first. That's the opposite of what I saw with the >> theater marquee bulbs. Now, I'm really tempted to run the experiment. > > > Was there any vibration in that theater marquee?That's a good point. Were there any bulbs continuously lit on the marquee to use as a reference?
Reply by ●October 11, 20122012-10-11
Mark Zacharias wrote:> "���hw��f" <snuhwolf@netscape.net> wrote in message > news:k548cn$d53$1@dont-email.me... >> default wrote: >>> On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 10:51:47 -0600, ���hw��f <snuhwolf@netscape.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Phil Hobbs wrote: >>>>> [......] >>>>> >>>>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny >>>>> Yonkers. Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. >>>>> Always a crowd pleaser. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> Phil Hobbs >>>>> >>>> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair >>>> question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo >>>> system to read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and >>>> spins up but wont play it. >>> >>> Have you taken it apart yet? Try cleaning the lens. In a dirty, >>> smoky or wet environment the lenses can become coated with stuff. >>> >>> >> I had it "working" a little after all that and an adjustment to the >> potentiometer on the back of the lazer as instructed. However it would >> only read one specific CD and scratched some CD's when it went thru >> its ejection cycle (disks would not spin down before ejection!) so I >> removed the tray and wont use it anymore. Further research indicated >> AIWA was part of a class action lawsuit in the 90's due to their CD >> players being crap. They're out of business now anyway. Good riddance. >> >> -- >> http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com >> www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.savewolves.org >> _____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____ >> / __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\ >> _\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\ >> /___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\ > > > Aiwa is still around as I understand it. They're owned by Sony.I haven't seen any new kit from them in any stores for years. Sony bought them out and killed it off: "Since 2004, however, Sony seemingly began rolling back its support for the Aiwa brand, and by 2005 Aiwa products remained on sale in only selected territories around the globe. In 2006, Aiwa products were discontinued and no longer sold in the market. As of September 2011, the Aiwa website still existed to provide customer-support telephone numbers for some territories and regions, but it also contained many broken links and blank pages. In other regions, such as Europe, it redirected to a page on the Sony website stating that the Aiwa website had closed. The last apparent update to the website was in June 2008.[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiwa> The biggest problem with their 3-cd models was that so much dust would > get into the lasers that even cleaning eventually would not be enough > and the laser would need to be replaced. > By the way, the lasers were made by Sony, the same pickups used by many > manufacturers at the time. >Wanna buy a used laser? Heh...its a 1997.> Worked on many of them, the customers were mostly satisfied. > > Later models had sliding covers that covered up the laser lens when not > playing. This helped but of course was not a perfect solution. > > Mark Z.We have another one, made in 2001, the tape decks on that one dont work. So, to recap: we have two units from failed electronics maker AIWA, and both have non-working components. My conclusion: AIWA was rightly killed off by Sony since its quality sucked balls. Oh, but we also have a SHARP single CD unit from 1991, it works *perfectly*. -- http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.savewolves.org _____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____ / __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\ _\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\ /___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\
Reply by ●October 11, 20122012-10-11
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 03:13:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:>Jeff Liebermann wrote: >> >> On Mon, 8 Oct 2012 06:27:05 -0700 (PDT), George Herold >> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: >> >> >Hi SEB. Well I sent an email to Don klipstein on this topic. And >> >have permission to copy his reply. >> ><from Don K. below> >> >> >2: In incandescent traffic signals, the bulbs for yellow last >> >longer than for red and green. So even after being switched on >> >and off about a million times, on-time is still a significant >> >factor in life expectancy. >> >> That means for my proposed test comparing a 50% duty cycle flashing >> light bulb, with one that is on continuously, the continuous light >> bulb will burn out first. That's the opposite of what I saw with the >> theater marquee bulbs. Now, I'm really tempted to run the experiment.> Was there any vibration in that theater marquee?Nope unless you count the movie audio pumped in from the theater section as vibration. The lobby and foyer lights were probably on a different circuit from the marquee lights, which may have had different voltages, glitches, surges, etc. I suspect that there were also some switching transcients on the marquee side. That was 45 years ago, and I didn't think to measure any of that. I just kept replacing light bulbs. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●October 11, 20122012-10-11
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 09:47:40 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:>On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 03:13:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" ><mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>Jeff Liebermann wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, 8 Oct 2012 06:27:05 -0700 (PDT), George Herold >>> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: >>> >>> >Hi SEB. Well I sent an email to Don klipstein on this topic. And >>> >have permission to copy his reply. >>> ><from Don K. below> >>> >>> >2: In incandescent traffic signals, the bulbs for yellow last >>> >longer than for red and green. So even after being switched on >>> >and off about a million times, on-time is still a significant >>> >factor in life expectancy. >>> >>> That means for my proposed test comparing a 50% duty cycle flashing >>> light bulb, with one that is on continuously, the continuous light >>> bulb will burn out first. That's the opposite of what I saw with the >>> theater marquee bulbs. Now, I'm really tempted to run the experiment. > >> Was there any vibration in that theater marquee? > >Nope unless you count the movie audio pumped in from the theater >section as vibration. > >The lobby and foyer lights were probably on a different circuit from >the marquee lights, which may have had different voltages, glitches, >surges, etc. I suspect that there were also some switching >transcients on the marquee side. That was 45 years ago, and I didn't >think to measure any of that. I just kept replacing light bulbs.I have a yet another guess(tm). I think the failures may have been due to heating. The lobby and foyer lights were mounted on the ceiling, pointing down. One would think that there would be plenty of hot air accumulating near the ceiling, but that wasn't the case. That's where the fan ducts were located which helped to cool the lights. Few of those lights ever burned out. The marquee lamps were mounted on a vertical structure, with the lamps pointed horizontally. I recall about 15-20 rows of lights. The backing was some type of sheet metal and plywood sandwich possibly to prevent the heat from the lights from setting fire to the building. Near the top was about a 2ft overhang, which was mostly decorative, but was also was used to hang flags and announcements. The rising hot air from the lower lamps would accumulate under the overhand and thoroughly heat the top rows of lights. Unfortunately, I didn't notice which rows required the most lamp replacements. One evening, I was volunteered to replace two lamps that had burned out when the marquee was run for some occasion. I recall that the sheet metal or plywood backing was warm near the bottom, but rather hot near the top. This was about 10 minutes after the marquee was turned off so that I could replace the bulbs. (That was also with a line of people standing under the ladder, which was not very safe). -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●October 11, 20122012-10-11
In article <ju2e78dvhsud46mljvoujn8kn69bqikpjr@4ax.com>, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:> The lobby and foyer lights were mounted on the ceiling, pointing down. > One would think that there would be plenty of hot air accumulating > near the ceiling, but that wasn't the case. That's where the fan > ducts were located which helped to cool the lights. Few of those > lights ever burned out.> The marquee lamps were mounted on a vertical structure, with the lamps > pointed horizontally.Vertical mounting for a GLS lamp seems to give a better life than other orientations. A rough service type may have had a better life in this application. -- *Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Reply by ●October 11, 20122012-10-11
"���hw��f" <snuhwolf@netscape.net> wrote in message news:k56sn5$8u7$1@dont-email.me...> Mark Zacharias wrote: >> "���hw��f" <snuhwolf@netscape.net> wrote in message >> news:k548cn$d53$1@dont-email.me... >>> default wrote: >>>> On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 10:51:47 -0600, ���hw��f <snuhwolf@netscape.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Phil Hobbs wrote: >>>>>> [......] >>>>>> >>>>>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny Yonkers. >>>>>> Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. Always a crowd >>>>>> pleaser. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> >>>>>> Phil Hobbs >>>>>> >>>>> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics repair >>>>> question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 stereo system >>>>> to read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the cd and spins up >>>>> but wont play it. >>>> >>>> Have you taken it apart yet? Try cleaning the lens. In a dirty, >>>> smoky or wet environment the lenses can become coated with stuff. >>>> >>>> >>> I had it "working" a little after all that and an adjustment to the >>> potentiometer on the back of the lazer as instructed. However it would >>> only read one specific CD and scratched some CD's when it went thru its >>> ejection cycle (disks would not spin down before ejection!) so I removed >>> the tray and wont use it anymore. Further research indicated AIWA was >>> part of a class action lawsuit in the 90's due to their CD players being >>> crap. They're out of business now anyway. Good riddance. >>> >>> -- >>> http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com >>> www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.savewolves.org >>> _____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____ >>> / __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\ >>> _\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\ >>> /___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\ >> >> >> Aiwa is still around as I understand it. They're owned by Sony. > > I haven't seen any new kit from them in any stores for years. Sony bought > them out and killed it off: > > "Since 2004, however, Sony seemingly began rolling back its support for > the Aiwa brand, and by 2005 Aiwa products remained on sale in only > selected territories around the globe. In 2006, Aiwa products were > discontinued and no longer sold in the market. > > As of September 2011, the Aiwa website still existed to provide > customer-support telephone numbers for some territories and regions, but > it also contained many broken links and blank pages. In other regions, > such as Europe, it redirected to a page on the Sony website stating that > the Aiwa website had closed. The last apparent update to the website was > in June 2008.[1]" > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiwa > > >> The biggest problem with their 3-cd models was that so much dust would >> get into the lasers that even cleaning eventually would not be enough and >> the laser would need to be replaced. >> By the way, the lasers were made by Sony, the same pickups used by many >> manufacturers at the time. >> > Wanna buy a used laser? Heh...its a 1997. > >> Worked on many of them, the customers were mostly satisfied. >> >> Later models had sliding covers that covered up the laser lens when not >> playing. This helped but of course was not a perfect solution. >> >> Mark Z. > > We have another one, made in 2001, the tape decks on that one dont work. > So, to recap: we have two units from failed electronics maker AIWA, and > both have non-working components. My conclusion: AIWA was rightly killed > off by Sony since its quality sucked balls. > > Oh, but we also have a SHARP single CD unit from 1991, it works > *perfectly*. > > -- > http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com > www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.savewolves.org > _____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____ > / __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\ > _\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\ > /___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\The tape decks have belt problems, like every other brand. The Aiwa's were a very cost-effective item at their price point. I have no desire to defend Aiwa - I find many of their products difficult to service. But it sounds to me like perhaps the problem here may be as much the technician as the product. Mark Z.
Reply by ●October 12, 20122012-10-12
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:55:15 -0700 (PDT), George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:>On Oct 10, 11:50�pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote: >> On Mon, 8 Oct 2012 06:27:05 -0700 (PDT), George Herold >> >> <gher...@teachspin.com> wrote: >> >Hi SEB. �Well I sent an email to Don klipstein on this topic. �And >> >have permission to copy his reply. >> ><from Don K. below> >> >2: �In incandescent traffic signals, the bulbs for yellow last >> >longer than for red and green. �So even after being switched on >> >and off about a million times, on-time is still a significant >> >factor in life expectancy. >> >> That means for my proposed test comparing a 50% duty cycle flashing >> light bulb, with one that is on continuously, the continuous light >> bulb will burn out first. �That's the opposite of what I saw with the >> theater marquee bulbs. �Now, I'm really tempted to run the experiment.>Experiments can be very useful.Yep. However, it's more fun to predict, speculate, guess, reverse engineer, and maybe calculate.>I'd worry most about how you turn on the bulbs. >Maybe just some simple relays?No. I didn't want to life test the relay contacts, just the light bulbs. I have plenty of solid state switches that will suffice. The reason I wanted two was to make sure the voltage drop across the switch was the same for both the flashing and continuous bulbs.>1,000 hours isn't all that long. (or are you going to over-voltage >the bulbs?) >I guess I'd want at least 10 bulbs in each group. Say 60 watts..... >1200 kW-hrs.Much as I would like to use a rack of bulbs, <http://pinterest.com/pin/172122016978363241/> <http://pinterest.com/pin/172122016978761590/> I think two bulbs will suffice for a start. The plan of the moment is to use a variac to boost the voltage from 120VAC to about 135VAC, which should reduce the 1000 hr life to a more tolerable 112 hrs. Cut-n-paste from a previous posting: Instead, an accelerated life test can be done with higher than normal voltages. <http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3544HPX_Catalog_2_11_09.pdf> For halogen bulbs, they use: Life = (Vdesign / Vapplied)^12.0 * Life at design voltage For a 1000 hr lamp running at 120% of the rated voltage, the life might be: life = (1/1.2)^12 * 1000 = 112 hrs which is more reasonable.>That's looking like more money than I'd want to spend on the >electricity.I'm trying to determine where to run the test. I don't want a flashing bulb in my bedroom. I also don't want to run an unattended rack of bulbs in the office which could become a fire hazard. Methinks just 2 bulbs and a 3-4 day accelerated test will be sufficient.>George H.-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●October 12, 20122012-10-12
Mark Zacharias wrote:> "���hw��f" <snuhwolf@netscape.net> wrote in message > news:k56sn5$8u7$1@dont-email.me... >> Mark Zacharias wrote: >>> "���hw��f" <snuhwolf@netscape.net> wrote in message >>> news:k548cn$d53$1@dont-email.me... >>>> default wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 10:51:47 -0600, ���hw��f <snuhwolf@netscape.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Phil Hobbs wrote: >>>>>>> [......] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stew Leonard's Espresso Roast, roasted fresh daily in sunny >>>>>>> Yonkers. Best beans I've ever come across, and worth the trip. >>>>>>> Always a crowd pleaser. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phil Hobbs >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry to hijack this thread but I have an actual electronics >>>>>> repair question: how do I go about getting my old AIWA CX-NA10 >>>>>> stereo system to read CD's again? Is the lazer bad? It detects the >>>>>> cd and spins up but wont play it. >>>>> >>>>> Have you taken it apart yet? Try cleaning the lens. In a dirty, >>>>> smoky or wet environment the lenses can become coated with stuff. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I had it "working" a little after all that and an adjustment to the >>>> potentiometer on the back of the lazer as instructed. However it >>>> would only read one specific CD and scratched some CD's when it went >>>> thru its ejection cycle (disks would not spin down before ejection!) >>>> so I removed the tray and wont use it anymore. Further research >>>> indicated AIWA was part of a class action lawsuit in the 90's due to >>>> their CD players being crap. They're out of business now anyway. >>>> Good riddance. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com >>>> www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.savewolves.org >>>> _____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____ >>>> / __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\ >>>> _\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\ >>>> /___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\ >>> >>> >>> Aiwa is still around as I understand it. They're owned by Sony. >> >> I haven't seen any new kit from them in any stores for years. Sony >> bought them out and killed it off: >> >> "Since 2004, however, Sony seemingly began rolling back its support >> for the Aiwa brand, and by 2005 Aiwa products remained on sale in only >> selected territories around the globe. In 2006, Aiwa products were >> discontinued and no longer sold in the market. >> >> As of September 2011, the Aiwa website still existed to provide >> customer-support telephone numbers for some territories and regions, >> but it also contained many broken links and blank pages. In other >> regions, such as Europe, it redirected to a page on the Sony website >> stating that the Aiwa website had closed. The last apparent update to >> the website was in June 2008.[1]" >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiwa >> >> >>> The biggest problem with their 3-cd models was that so much dust >>> would get into the lasers that even cleaning eventually would not be >>> enough and the laser would need to be replaced. >>> By the way, the lasers were made by Sony, the same pickups used by >>> many manufacturers at the time. >>> >> Wanna buy a used laser? Heh...its a 1997. >> >>> Worked on many of them, the customers were mostly satisfied. >>> >>> Later models had sliding covers that covered up the laser lens when >>> not playing. This helped but of course was not a perfect solution. >>> >>> Mark Z. >> >> We have another one, made in 2001, the tape decks on that one dont >> work. So, to recap: we have two units from failed electronics maker >> AIWA, and both have non-working components. My conclusion: AIWA was >> rightly killed off by Sony since its quality sucked balls. >> >> Oh, but we also have a SHARP single CD unit from 1991, it works >> *perfectly*. >> >> -- >> http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com >> www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.savewolves.org >> _____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____ >> / __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\ >> _\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\ >> /___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\ > > > The tape decks have belt problems, like every other brand. The Aiwa's > were a very cost-effective item at their price point.Translation: you get what you pay for.> I have no desire to defend Aiwa - I find many of their products > difficult to service. But it sounds to me like perhaps the problem here > may be as much the technician as the product. > > Mark Z.Oh snap! But I'm not a technician. No training whatsoever. -- http://howlingforjustice.wordpress.com www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.savewolves.org _____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____ / __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\ _\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\ /___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\
Reply by ●October 12, 20122012-10-12
On 10/11/2012 07:18 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:> In article<ju2e78dvhsud46mljvoujn8kn69bqikpjr@4ax.com>, > Jeff Liebermann<jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote: >> The lobby and foyer lights were mounted on the ceiling, pointing down. >> One would think that there would be plenty of hot air accumulating >> near the ceiling, but that wasn't the case. That's where the fan >> ducts were located which helped to cool the lights. Few of those >> lights ever burned out. > >> The marquee lamps were mounted on a vertical structure, with the lamps >> pointed horizontally. > > Vertical mounting for a GLS lamp seems to give a better life than other > orientations. A rough service type may have had a better life in this > application. >The filament temperature goes up more slowly than the ambient, since it's radiatively cooled, but a rise of, say, 50 degrees would probably have a significant effect on bulb life. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
