On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:>On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote: >> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote: >>>> [...] >>>> When do you get your best electronic design ideas? >>> >>> When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long >>> way ;) ) >> >> My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is >> a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be >> made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts >> make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >> days? >> >> Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >> them simultaneously. >> > >There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test": > ><https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/> > >Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the person is >unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only think in >words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure what if >any disciplines are involved.Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize. Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find common words.> >But total aphantasia is rare and it's a matter of degree, I expect >people who are strongly phantasic might like fiction significantly more >- imagine being able to pick up a book and visualize its contents very >strongly almost like you were watching a film. Sure save money on Netflix. > >I'm not a big fiction fan, I was moreso as a kid. My test rates me >somewhere in the middle, not sure if it's an ability that perhaps tends >to decline with age and is strongest in children.I loved sci-fi as a kid, but find it lame and boring now. But I hated classics, Jane Austin and Shakespeare sorts of stuff, but love it now. Fortunately, I can still design electronics. I visualize basic circuits but have to draw them to really think about them. I go through absurd numbers of grid pads and uniball pens. The Amazon Basics pads are pretty good. LT Spice is a great aid to thinking. When I was 30, I had designed hundreds of PCBs and could draw any of their schematics from memory. I can't do that any more. No big deal, they are on my computer now.
mental imaging
Started by ●January 2, 2024
Reply by ●January 11, 20242024-01-11
Reply by ●January 11, 20242024-01-11
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: > >>On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote: >>>>> [...] >>>>> When do you get your best electronic design ideas? >>>> >>>> When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long >>>> way ;) ) >>> >>> My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is >>> a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be >>> made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts >>> make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>> days? >>> >>> Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>> them simultaneously. >>> >> >>There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test": >> >><https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/> >> >>Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the person is >>unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only think in >>words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure what if >>any disciplines are involved. > >Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize. > >Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely >substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >common words.I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room only in the largest lecture hall on campus. My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why? He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution. But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive in a real EE job. So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision. Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●January 11, 20242024-01-11
On 1/10/2024 8:46 PM, bitrex wrote:> But total aphantasia is rare and it's a matter of degree, I expect people who > are strongly phantasic might like fiction significantly more - imagine beingWhy would that be limited to fiction? Can't you "immerse yourself" in a recounting of history, etc.? Can't you "feel" what another individual is purporting to have experienced? I.e., isn't *compassion* a form of (non-visual) visualization?> able to pick up a book and visualize its contents very strongly almost like you > were watching a film. Sure save money on Netflix.Totally different experience. Watching films/video is a pedestrian experience -- the film is "over there" and you are "over here".> I'm not a big fiction fan, I was moreso as a kid. My test rates me somewhere in > the middle, not sure if it's an ability that perhaps tends to decline with age > and is strongest in children.An imagination is like anything else -- if not EXERCISED, it degrades. Being able to "forget where you are" (e.g., in the reading of a book) is a delightful (though often scary) experience! I've learned that I can't read a novel while *in* the airport lounge lest I miss the call for my flight. And, if the novel I've selected is a bit too long for the flight (I read fast), someone invariably has to jostle me out of my seat when the aircraft lands. And NEVER take a book into the bathroom!!! :<
Reply by ●January 11, 20242024-01-11
On 1/11/2024 8:12 AM, Don Y wrote:> Why would that be limited to fiction? Can't you "immerse yourself" in > a recounting of history, etc.? Can't you "feel" what another individual is > purporting to have experienced? I.e., isn't *compassion* a form of > (non-visual) visualization?No, "empathy" is a more appropriate comparison. One can *learn* compassion much the same way that one can "learn" to express gratitude *without* being grateful.
Reply by ●January 11, 20242024-01-11
On 1/11/2024 9:37 AM, John Larkin wrote:> I loved sci-fi as a kid, but find it lame and boring now. But I hated > classics, Jane Austin and Shakespeare sorts of stuff, but love it now.The only thing more scary to a HS English teacher than a teenager who isn't into Shakespeare is one who's very big into it. There's a better-than-average chance they're going to be a movie star and a better-than-average chance they'll end up a HS teacher and they'll probably remember you either way..> Fortunately, I can still design electronics. I visualize basic > circuits but have to draw them to really think about them. I go > through absurd numbers of grid pads and uniball pens. The Amazon > Basics pads are pretty good. > > LT Spice is a great aid to thinking. > > When I was 30, I had designed hundreds of PCBs and could draw any of > their schematics from memory. I can't do that any more. No big deal, > they are on my computer now. >I think human designers may have some kind of elegance/consistency internal rulecheck independent of the internal electrical rulecheck; that "good" circuits tend to have a certain "look" about them, independent of their electrical validity. Our brain's ability to do electrical rulechecks at more than a cursory level is pretty poor. In the larger-than-electrons-in-Universe state space there are many circuits appealing to the first rulecheck that are electrical nonsense and vice-versa, but it may be that the number of "ugly" but exceptional-performing circuits in that state space, that completely fail the first human test but pass the physics test with flying colors, greatly outnumbers the set of circuits that meets both checks. However a human will have extreme difficulty finding them, the implied network analysis problem we're discussing is likely NP hard/complete so can't yet be brute-forced by machine, and AI often has trouble optimizing even known circuits, much less coming up with novel ones. So even if I'm right I think the overwhelming majority of "beautiful scum"-type circuits are just lost to the curse of dimensionality.
Reply by ●January 11, 20242024-01-11
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:> On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> > wrote: > >> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >> >>> On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote: >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> When do you get your best electronic design ideas? >>>>> >>>>> When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long >>>>> way ;) ) >>>> >>>> My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is >>>> a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be >>>> made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts >>>> make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>> days? >>>> >>>> Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>> them simultaneously. >>>> >>> >>> There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test": >>> >>> <https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/> >>> >>> Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the person is >>> unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only think in >>> words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure what if >>> any disciplines are involved. >> >> Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize. >> >> Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely >> substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >> common words. > > I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) > - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room > only in the largest lecture hall on campus. > > My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the > EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why? > > He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good > grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the > electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution. > > But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way > from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive > in a real EE job. > > So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was > exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision. > > Joe GwinnI also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take particularly seriously.
Reply by ●January 11, 20242024-01-11
The arsehole bitrex <user@example.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > MIME-Version: 1.0 > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird > Subject: Re: mental imaging > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > References: <bma9pi9ku61qchabtps5f6toqj91d0u5q6@4ax.com> > <jvsipidtd3bf67qm51b81ksc6e2a2gtah7@4ax.com> > <f4mopilrdg1l8qlp6lfifq3a7e601sc449@4ax.com> <slrnupp9fj.clb.dan@djph.net> > <v3dppi18mmrup5jl1f44dva3nhklj1o5bh@4ax.com> > Content-Language: en-US > From: bitrex <user@example.net> > In-Reply-To: <v3dppi18mmrup5jl1f44dva3nhklj1o5bh@4ax.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 240110-6, 1/10/2024), Outbound message > X-Antivirus-Status: Clean > Lines: 43 > Message-ID: <GwJnN.152915$c3Ea.102520@fx10.iad> > X-Complaints-To: abuse@frugalusenet.com > NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 03:46:46 UTC > Organization: frugalusenet - www.frugalusenet.com > Bytes: 2627 > Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500 > X-Received-Bytes: 2766
Reply by ●January 11, 20242024-01-11
The arsehole John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:39:08 +0000 > From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: mental imaging > Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800 > Organization: Highland Tech > Reply-To: xx@yy.com > Message-ID: <7duvpipvbvcjut33d8v9cs1dmgi8corqvr@4ax.com> > References: <bma9pi9ku61qchabtps5f6toqj91d0u5q6@4ax.com> <jvsipidtd3bf67qm51b81ksc6e2a2gtah7@4ax.com> <f4mopilrdg1l8qlp6lfifq3a7e601sc449@4ax.com> <slrnupp9fj.clb.dan@djph.net> <v3dppi18mmrup5jl1f44dva3nhklj1o5bh@4ax.com> <GwJnN.152915$c3Ea.102520@fx10.iad> > X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Lines: 65 > X-Trace: sv3-iRbQw8gzZh9dOErjL9lKqo/j3llc6juZmaTE9Ujm8edm0EkWoHa9P+6/mn1bUjHB9582nkpJPiaxzYO!HhVt/CzYGCQP0KH25X+noifiddGY547OXRBAajITLqWXK7+v9Q5Q7WOdRge6McZplvBQCotUdSbj!38IkEQ== > X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html > X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html > X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers > X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly > X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 > X-Received-Bytes: 4203
Reply by ●January 11, 20242024-01-11
The arsehole Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:04:31 +0000 > From: Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: mental imaging > Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 10:04:30 -0500 > Message-ID: <0100qi9dg8mot6hoic6koi6bdahlte976f@4ax.com> > References: <bma9pi9ku61qchabtps5f6toqj91d0u5q6@4ax.com> <jvsipidtd3bf67qm51b81ksc6e2a2gtah7@4ax.com> <f4mopilrdg1l8qlp6lfifq3a7e601sc449@4ax.com> <slrnupp9fj.clb.dan@djph.net> <v3dppi18mmrup5jl1f44dva3nhklj1o5bh@4ax.com> <GwJnN.152915$c3Ea.102520@fx10.iad> <7duvpipvbvcjut33d8v9cs1dmgi8corqvr@4ax.com> > User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Lines: 62 > X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com > X-Trace: sv3-zgKp6oErTi+W8+HY4Eym/rIK457LSvRpBJvRleO2jakzTJ6jGB1nzT5vRLeL59ypOBrKTwZVvtGe+IO!bYUd/Z3qEmAwqjDNRBnj6qotgwN9v9TjMYfEwenkAZV/h48lHo6NVdaxSyXWhP9HfdSTCIo= > X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com > X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html > X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers > X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly > X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 > Bytes: 3783 > X-Received-Bytes: 3921
Reply by ●January 11, 20242024-01-11
The arsehole bitrex <user@example.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > MIME-Version: 1.0 > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird > Subject: Re: mental imaging > Content-Language: en-US > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > References: <bma9pi9ku61qchabtps5f6toqj91d0u5q6@4ax.com> > <jvsipidtd3bf67qm51b81ksc6e2a2gtah7@4ax.com> > <f4mopilrdg1l8qlp6lfifq3a7e601sc449@4ax.com> <slrnupp9fj.clb.dan@djph.net> > <v3dppi18mmrup5jl1f44dva3nhklj1o5bh@4ax.com> > <GwJnN.152915$c3Ea.102520@fx10.iad> > <7duvpipvbvcjut33d8v9cs1dmgi8corqvr@4ax.com> > <0100qi9dg8mot6hoic6koi6bdahlte976f@4ax.com> > From: bitrex <user@example.net> > In-Reply-To: <0100qi9dg8mot6hoic6koi6bdahlte976f@4ax.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 240111-2, 1/11/2024), Outbound message > X-Antivirus-Status: Clean > Lines: 72 > Message-ID: <wdWnN.144876$Wp_8.58399@fx17.iad> > X-Complaints-To: abuse@frugalusenet.com > NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 18:13:48 UTC > Organization: frugalusenet - www.frugalusenet.com > Bytes: 4188 > Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500 > X-Received-Bytes: 4327
