As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued. Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC. Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch swhich that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent logic? I'm confident that's correct, just double checking. Thanks.
PC USB oscilloscopes, Hantek 6022BE vs 6022BL
Started by ●January 4, 2019
Reply by ●January 4, 20192019-01-04
On 2019/01/04 9:41 a.m., John Doe wrote:> As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have absolutely no > use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like the inclusion of a > logic analyzer is a huge value. Another concern with the BE is that > apparently it is discontinued. > > Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two oscilloscopes > are caused by their inability to use a PC. > > Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's like when > you want to know what happens when pressing a touch swhich that goes to > some logic circuit? In other words... When a logic output goes high, > this is what happens to subsequent logic? > > I'm confident that's correct, just double checking. > > Thanks. >A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity required of your LA device. For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world interactions. John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Reply by ●January 4, 20192019-01-04
On 1/4/2019 10:59 AM, John Robertson wrote:> On 2019/01/04 9:41 a.m., John Doe wrote: >> As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have absolutely no >> use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like the inclusion of a >> logic analyzer is a huge value. Another concern with the BE is that >> apparently it is discontinued. >> >> Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two oscilloscopes >> are caused by their inability to use a PC. >> >> Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's like when >> you want to know what happens when pressing a touch switch that goes to >> some logic circuit? In other words... When a logic output goes high, >> this is what happens to subsequent logic? >> >> I'm confident that's correct, just double checking. >> >> Thanks. >> > > A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and after a > Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what the Trigger > Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and subsequent data you wish > to be able to review. This information determines the number of data > lines, speed, and storage capacity required of your LA device. > > For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses along with > various interrupts, etc. based on real world interactions. > > John :-#)#The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after. Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute crap. The manuals and specs are so vague as to be useless. Let me hasten to add that a crap scope can be very useful in many situations. Just make sure you have one of those situations. If you wanna learn about scopes an make crude observations about how slow stuff works, this is probably as good as any. They're a thousand times slower, but you can learn a lot from an app that uses the sound input on your smart phone or computer. That also gives you some experience so you can look for the specs you need when you buy a scope. If you're trying to figger out why this flip-flop doesn't flip sometimes, look elsewhere for the diagnostic tool. Triggering is a very important capability. The ability to look at what happened BEFORE the trigger event is very useful...but only if the triggering capability will let you trigger selectively. This is even more important for a logic analyzer. You wan't to trigger on sequences of events and store only relevant data. You want analysis of that data. Triggering the analog scope on a sequence of logic states can be extremely useful. The specs don't say, and it's complex, so probably not supported. Complex triggering is the most important spec for a logic analyzer. There's also a very important parameter that's easy to overlook with sampling stuff. A million bytes of memory sounds like a lot, but if you're sampling at 40 megasamples a second, you get only 1/40th of a second captured. If you have narrow pulses spaced far apart, you slow down the sweep speed. Eventually, you get to the point where the pulse has come and gone between two samples. They start to disappear on the screen. That's not what you want to see when diagnosing a problem with missing pulses. The flip side of that coin is that if you sample too slowly, you get aliasing and the picture on the screen ain't at all like what's actually there. You can experience these effects with a smart-phone app before you spend $$ on something that may not do what you want. I haven't designed a production logic analyzer in 30 years. Lots of innovation since then...but probably not implemented in a $60 product.
Reply by ●January 4, 20192019-01-04
Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:> John Robertson wrote: >> John Doe wrote:>>> As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have >>> absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like >>> the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another >>> concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued. >>> >>> Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two >>> oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC. >>> >>> Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's >>> like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch >>> switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a >>> logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent >>> logic? >>> >>> I'm confident that's correct, just double checking.>> A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and >> after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what >> the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and >> subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information >> determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity >> required of your LA device. >> >> For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses >> along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world >> interactions.> The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You > wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You > shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after. > > Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute > crap.References? Many of the negative reviews appear to be from people who have trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I can tell by what they write, they are stumbling over PC user problems. For example when a reviewer says "It doesn't work!" Typically that means they do not know how to set up the software, update the firmware, etc.
Reply by ●January 4, 20192019-01-04
On 1/4/2019 1:44 PM, John Doe wrote:> Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote: > >> John Robertson wrote: >>> John Doe wrote: > >>>> As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have >>>> absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like >>>> the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another >>>> concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued. >>>> >>>> Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two >>>> oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC. >>>> >>>> Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's >>>> like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch >>>> switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a >>>> logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent >>>> logic? >>>> >>>> I'm confident that's correct, just double checking. > >>> A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and >>> after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what >>> the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and >>> subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information >>> determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity >>> required of your LA device. >>> >>> For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses >>> along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world >>> interactions. > >> The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You >> wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You >> shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after. >> >> Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute >> crap. > > References? > Many of the negative reviews appear to be from people who have > trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I can tell by what they > write, they are stumbling over PC user problems. For example when a > reviewer says "It doesn't work!" Typically that means they do not > know how to set up the software, update the firmware, etc. >All you gotta do is go read the manual/specs. It's not about the PC. It's about the (lack of) specs and (lack of) user operation of the interface.
Reply by ●January 5, 20192019-01-05
On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 10:59:00 -0800, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> wrote:>On 2019/01/04 9:41 a.m., John Doe wrote: >> As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have absolutely no >> use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like the inclusion of a >> logic analyzer is a huge value. Another concern with the BE is that >> apparently it is discontinued. >> >> Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two oscilloscopes >> are caused by their inability to use a PC. >> >> Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's like when >> you want to know what happens when pressing a touch swhich that goes to >> some logic circuit? In other words... When a logic output goes high, >> this is what happens to subsequent logic? >> >> I'm confident that's correct, just double checking. >> >> Thanks. >> > >A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and after a >Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what the Trigger >Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and subsequent data you wish >to be able to review. This information determines the number of data >lines, speed, and storage capacity required of your LA device. > >For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses along with >various interrupts, etc. based on real world interactions.I haven't needed a (general purpose) logic analyzer in almost 30 years. With modern systems, they're more work to set up than they are useful and they're absolutely useless for memory busses, and such. Protocol analyzers (I2C, SPI, USB, etc.) can be rather useful, OTOH.
Reply by ●January 5, 20192019-01-05
Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:> John Doe wrote: >> Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote: >>> John Robertson wrote: >>>> John Doe wrote: >> >>>>> As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have >>>>> absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like >>>>> the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another >>>>> concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued. >>>>> >>>>> Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two >>>>> oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC. >>>>> >>>>> Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's >>>>> like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch >>>>> switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a >>>>> logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent >>>>> logic? >>>>> >>>>> I'm confident that's correct, just double checking. >> >>>> A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and >>>> after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what >>>> the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and >>>> subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information >>>> determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity >>>> required of your LA device. >>>> >>>> For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses >>>> along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world >>>> interactions. >> >>> The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You >>> wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You >>> shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after. >>> >>> Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute >>> crap. >> >> References? >> Many of the negative reviews appear to be from people who have >> trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I can tell by what >> they write, they are stumbling over PC user problems. For example >> when a reviewer says "It doesn't work!" Typically that means they >> do not know how to set up the software, update the firmware, etc. >> > All you gotta do is go read the manual/specs. It's not about the > PC. It's about the (lack of) specs and (lack of) user operation of > the interface.What specs do I need for drones? I wouldn't worry about the interface. There is an entire group devoted for making an alternative interface for it. They have been doing it for many years.
Reply by ●January 5, 20192019-01-05
On 1/4/2019 11:16 PM, John Doe wrote:> Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote: > >> John Doe wrote: >>> Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote: >>>> John Robertson wrote: >>>>> John Doe wrote: >>> >>>>>> As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have >>>>>> absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like >>>>>> the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another >>>>>> concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued. >>>>>> >>>>>> Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two >>>>>> oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's >>>>>> like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch >>>>>> switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a >>>>>> logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent >>>>>> logic? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm confident that's correct, just double checking. >>> >>>>> A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and >>>>> after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what >>>>> the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and >>>>> subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information >>>>> determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity >>>>> required of your LA device. >>>>> >>>>> For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses >>>>> along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world >>>>> interactions. >>> >>>> The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You >>>> wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You >>>> shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after. >>>> >>>> Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute >>>> crap. >>> >>> References? >>> Many of the negative reviews appear to be from people who have >>> trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I can tell by what >>> they write, they are stumbling over PC user problems. For example >>> when a reviewer says "It doesn't work!" Typically that means they >>> do not know how to set up the software, update the firmware, etc. >>> >> All you gotta do is go read the manual/specs. It's not about the >> PC. It's about the (lack of) specs and (lack of) user operation of >> the interface. > > What specs do I need for drones?That's my point, I don't know, and looks like neither do you. Dynamic range of the input and whether it's offset at the input or fixed and has a much more limited software offset.> > I wouldn't worry about the interface. There is an entire group devoted > for making an alternative interface for it. They have been doing it > for many years.You're missing the point completely. It's not abut the UI. It's about the hardware. When I read the manual, there was absolutely zero about the logic analyzer. What's the input dynamic range? What's the triggering capability? Can the LA trigger the scope? Does it work by sampling the input at a fixed rate? OR does it record time stamps at transitions GREATLY expanding the capture time for sparse signals. How about glitch triggering? Pattern triggering? It would be interesting to see what the group devoted to it has to say about the specs. The vendor is mute on the subject. I'd call that a red flag.> > > > > > > >
Reply by ●January 5, 20192019-01-05
Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:> John Doe wrote: >> Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote: >>> John Doe wrote: >>>> Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote: >>>>> John Robertson wrote: >>>>>> John Doe wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have >>>>>>> absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks >>>>>>> like the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. >>>>>>> Another concern with the BE is that apparently it is >>>>>>> discontinued. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two >>>>>>> oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... >>>>>>> That's like when you want to know what happens when pressing >>>>>>> a touch switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other >>>>>>> words... When a logic output goes high, this is what happens >>>>>>> to subsequent logic? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm confident that's correct, just double checking. >>>> >>>>>> A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before >>>>>> and after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor >>>>>> and what the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior >>>>>> data and subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This >>>>>> information determines the number of data lines, speed, and >>>>>> storage capacity required of your LA device. >>>>>> >>>>>> For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses >>>>>> along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world >>>>>> interactions. >>>> >>>>> The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" >>>>> You wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. >>>>> You shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're >>>>> after. >>>>> >>>>> Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute >>>>> crap. >>>> >>>> References? Many of the negative reviews appear to be from >>>> people who have trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I >>>> can tell by what they write, they are stumbling over PC user >>>> problems. For example when a reviewer says "It doesn't work!" >>>> Typically that means they do not know how to set up the >>>> software, update the firmware, etc. >>>> >>> All you gotta do is go read the manual/specs. It's not about >>> the PC. It's about the (lack of) specs and (lack of) user >>> operation of the interface. >> >> What specs do I need for drones? > > That's my point, I don't know, and looks like neither do you.That's why I asked, Sherlock. "I have absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer." <SNIP>
Reply by ●January 9, 20192019-01-09
On Friday, January 4, 2019 at 4:44:31 PM UTC-5, John Doe wrote:> Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote: > > > John Robertson wrote: > >> John Doe wrote: > > >>> As far as I know, using an oscilloscope for drones, I have > >>> absolutely no use for the BL's logic analyzer. But it looks like > >>> the inclusion of a logic analyzer is a huge value. Another > >>> concern with the BE is that apparently it is discontinued. > >>> > >>> Looks ike most of the problems people have with those two > >>> oscilloscopes are caused by their inability to use a PC. > >>> > >>> Just to check my understanding of a "logic analyzer"... That's > >>> like when you want to know what happens when pressing a touch > >>> switch that goes to some logic circuit? In other words... When a > >>> logic output goes high, this is what happens to subsequent > >>> logic? > >>> > >>> I'm confident that's correct, just double checking. > > >> A logic analyzer can show you a record of data both before and > >> after a Trigger Event. You decide what data to monitor and what > >> the Trigger Event(s) is(are), then how much prior data and > >> subsequent data you wish to be able to review. This information > >> determines the number of data lines, speed, and storage capacity > >> required of your LA device. > >> > >> For most of us the data of interest is address and data buses > >> along with various interrupts, etc. based on real world > >> interactions. > > > The most important decision is "What am I gonna do with this?" You > > wouldn't buy a phillips screwdriver to remove torx screws. You > > shouldn't buy a scope that won't measure what you're after. > > > > Based on a 10 minute google, both scopes appear to be absolute > > crap. > > References? > Many of the negative reviews appear to be from people who have > trouble using a PC. As a PC guru, oftentimes I can tell by what they > write, they are stumbling over PC user problems. For example when a > reviewer says "It doesn't work!" Typically that means they do not > know how to set up the software, update the firmware, etc.I'm one of those people. I use 20 year old email software on four different versions of Windows, a 10 year old, unsupported PCB layout program under the same 4 versions of Windows, but never got the software for the Hantek scope to work. It installed, but does nothing useful. I have the version with the logic analyzer because from the specs available for the unit it was not possible to tell that the two are in no way linked or synchronized. They simply share the same USB interface and power connector. I'll sell it for $50. Not sure what they are selling for now. Rick C. - Get 6 months of free supercharging - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
