On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:43:08 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:> On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:19:50 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com > > wrote: > > > > >On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 11:59:16 AM UTC-4, piglet wrote: > > >> On 08/10/2015 16:46, Piotr Wyderski wrote: > > >> > piglet wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> You don't even need an opto-coupler for that. As Pease wrote: just use a > > >> >> 2N2222 (or similar) with base grounded, zener the emitter junction with > > >> >> plenty mA and see a small negative voltage at the collecter. The B-E > > >> >> zener emits light that excites the B-C junction as a photodiode. > > >> > > > >> > Since it's not April, the 1st, so.. please explain. :-) > > >> > > > >> > Best regards, Piotr > > >> > > > >> > > >> I thought my description did explain it. Go on, try it: > > >> > > >> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/g9zwy6wyb4lhx4a/peasecon.pdf> > > >> > > >> Have fun. > > >> > > >> piglet > > > > > >http://electronicdesign.com/site-files/electronicdesign.com/files/archive/electronicdesign.com/files/29/6362/figure_01.gif > > > > > >Applied for bias cancellation... > > >http://electronicdesign.com/analog/single-supply-op-amp-input-bias-current-cancellation > > > > > > > > > > Probably noisy. And maybe drifty. > > Dunno. Zeners are still lower noise than band-gaps, right? > > Woodward's one of the best, but it has been eighteen years since he > wrote that. And he was souping up what is basically a high-test LM324, > so it just might not matter that much. > > www.linear.com/product/LT1013 > > Cheers, > James ArthurA quick glance says the noise is not outrageous. ('scope, AC couple, 2mV 20 MHz BW limit, about 2mVp-p.. And most of that is still the 100 MHz that my lab is bathed in. I had to turn the room light off also. High impedance and all that. I tired a big fat transistor too (TIP31) it didn't zener till a higher voltage the collector/ base gave less voltage ~150 mV with (I'm guessing) a higher impedance. George H.
A very silly circuit
Started by ●October 3, 2015
Reply by ●October 8, 20152015-10-08
Reply by ●October 8, 20152015-10-08
On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:02:52 -0700 (PDT), George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:>On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:43:08 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote: >> On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:19:50 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >> > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com >> > wrote: >> > >> > >On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 11:59:16 AM UTC-4, piglet wrote: >> > >> On 08/10/2015 16:46, Piotr Wyderski wrote: >> > >> > piglet wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> You don't even need an opto-coupler for that. As Pease wrote: just use a >> > >> >> 2N2222 (or similar) with base grounded, zener the emitter junction with >> > >> >> plenty mA and see a small negative voltage at the collecter. The B-E >> > >> >> zener emits light that excites the B-C junction as a photodiode. >> > >> > >> > >> > Since it's not April, the 1st, so.. please explain. :-) >> > >> > >> > >> > Best regards, Piotr >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> I thought my description did explain it. Go on, try it: >> > >> >> > >> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/g9zwy6wyb4lhx4a/peasecon.pdf> >> > >> >> > >> Have fun. >> > >> >> > >> piglet >> > > >> > >http://electronicdesign.com/site-files/electronicdesign.com/files/archive/electronicdesign.com/files/29/6362/figure_01.gif >> > > >> > >Applied for bias cancellation... >> > >http://electronicdesign.com/analog/single-supply-op-amp-input-bias-current-cancellation >> > > >> > > >> > >> > Probably noisy. And maybe drifty. >> >> Dunno. Zeners are still lower noise than band-gaps, right? >> >> Woodward's one of the best, but it has been eighteen years since he >> wrote that. And he was souping up what is basically a high-test LM324, >> so it just might not matter that much. >> >> www.linear.com/product/LT1013 >> >> Cheers, >> James Arthur > >A quick glance says the noise is not outrageous. >('scope, AC couple, 2mV 20 MHz BW limit, about 2mVp-p.. >And most of that is still the 100 MHz that my lab is bathed >in. I had to turn the room light off also. High impedance and >all that.The source is high impedance so any capacitance (scope and such) lowpass filters the voltage noise. The ED application depends on the current into a summing point. Being optical, the current will have at least shot noise, plus anything the zener-optical effect adds. Pease conjectured that the effect is optical. Has that been verified? -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●October 8, 20152015-10-08
On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 2:29:39 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:> On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:02:52 -0700 (PDT), George Herold > <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > > >On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:43:08 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote: > >> On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:19:50 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > >> > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > >On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 11:59:16 AM UTC-4, piglet wrote: > >> > >> On 08/10/2015 16:46, Piotr Wyderski wrote: > >> > >> > piglet wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> >> You don't even need an opto-coupler for that. As Pease wrote: just use a > >> > >> >> 2N2222 (or similar) with base grounded, zener the emitter junction with > >> > >> >> plenty mA and see a small negative voltage at the collecter. The B-E > >> > >> >> zener emits light that excites the B-C junction as a photodiode. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Since it's not April, the 1st, so.. please explain. :-) > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Best regards, Piotr > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> I thought my description did explain it. Go on, try it: > >> > >> > >> > >> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/g9zwy6wyb4lhx4a/peasecon.pdf> > >> > >> > >> > >> Have fun. > >> > >> > >> > >> piglet > >> > > > >> > >http://electronicdesign.com/site-files/electronicdesign.com/files/archive/electronicdesign.com/files/29/6362/figure_01.gif > >> > > > >> > >Applied for bias cancellation... > >> > >http://electronicdesign.com/analog/single-supply-op-amp-input-bias-current-cancellation > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > Probably noisy. And maybe drifty. > >> > >> Dunno. Zeners are still lower noise than band-gaps, right? > >> > >> Woodward's one of the best, but it has been eighteen years since he > >> wrote that. And he was souping up what is basically a high-test LM324, > >> so it just might not matter that much. > >> > >> www.linear.com/product/LT1013 > >> > >> Cheers, > >> James Arthur > > > >A quick glance says the noise is not outrageous. > >('scope, AC couple, 2mV 20 MHz BW limit, about 2mVp-p.. > >And most of that is still the 100 MHz that my lab is bathed > >in. I had to turn the room light off also. High impedance and > >all that. > > The source is high impedance so any capacitance (scope and such) > lowpass filters the voltage noise. The ED application depends on the > current into a summing point. Being optical, the current will have at > least shot noise, plus anything the zener-optical effect adds. > > Pease conjectured that the effect is optical. Has that been verified?How would you verify it? (Crack it open and look for light?) Do you get light out of 7 volt zeners? Could you have some higher energy electron from the avalanche make it all the way across the base and then fall down into the collector? (I think that gives the right sign.) George H.> > > -- > > John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc > picosecond timing precision measurement > > jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com > http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●October 8, 20152015-10-08
On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:17:23 -0700 (PDT), George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:>On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 2:29:39 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >> On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:02:52 -0700 (PDT), George Herold >> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: >> >> >On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:43:08 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:19:50 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >> >> > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 11:59:16 AM UTC-4, piglet wrote: >> >> > >> On 08/10/2015 16:46, Piotr Wyderski wrote: >> >> > >> > piglet wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> You don't even need an opto-coupler for that. As Pease wrote: just use a >> >> > >> >> 2N2222 (or similar) with base grounded, zener the emitter junction with >> >> > >> >> plenty mA and see a small negative voltage at the collecter. The B-E >> >> > >> >> zener emits light that excites the B-C junction as a photodiode. >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > Since it's not April, the 1st, so.. please explain. :-) >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > Best regards, Piotr >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> I thought my description did explain it. Go on, try it: >> >> > >> >> >> > >> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/g9zwy6wyb4lhx4a/peasecon.pdf> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Have fun. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> piglet >> >> > > >> >> > >http://electronicdesign.com/site-files/electronicdesign.com/files/archive/electronicdesign.com/files/29/6362/figure_01.gif >> >> > > >> >> > >Applied for bias cancellation... >> >> > >http://electronicdesign.com/analog/single-supply-op-amp-input-bias-current-cancellation >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > Probably noisy. And maybe drifty. >> >> >> >> Dunno. Zeners are still lower noise than band-gaps, right? >> >> >> >> Woodward's one of the best, but it has been eighteen years since he >> >> wrote that. And he was souping up what is basically a high-test LM324, >> >> so it just might not matter that much. >> >> >> >> www.linear.com/product/LT1013 >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> James Arthur >> > >> >A quick glance says the noise is not outrageous. >> >('scope, AC couple, 2mV 20 MHz BW limit, about 2mVp-p.. >> >And most of that is still the 100 MHz that my lab is bathed >> >in. I had to turn the room light off also. High impedance and >> >all that. >> >> The source is high impedance so any capacitance (scope and such) >> lowpass filters the voltage noise. The ED application depends on the >> current into a summing point. Being optical, the current will have at >> least shot noise, plus anything the zener-optical effect adds. >> >> Pease conjectured that the effect is optical. Has that been verified? >How would you verify it? (Crack it open and look for light?) >Do you get light out of 7 volt zeners?Don't know. I think zeners and even CMOS gates make a tiny amount of light. In CMOS, the light has been used for logic diagnostics, with massive signal averaging.> >Could you have some higher energy electron >from the avalanche make it all the way across the base and then fall >down into the collector? (I think that gives the right sign.)Something like that maybe. I think Phil has found PHEMTs that can bias their own gates negative a little, sort of an electron venturi effect. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply by ●October 8, 20152015-10-08
On 08/10/2015 19:29, John Larkin wrote:> Pease conjectured that the effect is optical. Has that been verified? >I haven't tried cutting the top off a TO-18 part (yet) but photon emission by avalanche breakdown in silicon has been known a long time: <http://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.102.369> piglet
Reply by ●October 8, 20152015-10-08
On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 3:59:37 PM UTC-4, piglet wrote:> On 08/10/2015 19:29, John Larkin wrote: > > Pease conjectured that the effect is optical. Has that been verified? > > > > I haven't tried cutting the top off a TO-18 part (yet) but photon > emission by avalanche breakdown in silicon has been known a long time: > > <http://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.102.369> > > pigletGreat thanks, I think McKay was "Mr." avalanche breakdown at bell labs, I've read some of his other papers. George H.
Reply by ●October 9, 20152015-10-09
On 2015-10-08 21:59, piglet wrote:> On 08/10/2015 19:29, John Larkin wrote: >> Pease conjectured that the effect is optical. Has that been verified? >> > > I haven't tried cutting the top off a TO-18 part (yet) but photon > emission by avalanche breakdown in silicon has been known a long time:I did and yes, there is light. Jeroen Belleman
Reply by ●October 9, 20152015-10-09
piglet wrote:> I thought my description did explain it.It explained the construction, but are you really sure Pease presents the correct explanation? Photons generated in silicon?! My guess would be some kind of thermoelectric effect. > Go on, try it: Thank you. Best regards, Piotr
Reply by ●October 9, 20152015-10-09
On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 3:17:27 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:> On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 2:29:39 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:02:52 -0700 (PDT), George Herold > > <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > > > > >On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:43:08 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote: > > >> On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:19:50 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > > >> > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > >On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 11:59:16 AM UTC-4, piglet wrote: > > >> > >> On 08/10/2015 16:46, Piotr Wyderski wrote: > > >> > >> > piglet wrote: > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> >> You don't even need an opto-coupler for that. As Pease wrote: just use a > > >> > >> >> 2N2222 (or similar) with base grounded, zener the emitter junction with > > >> > >> >> plenty mA and see a small negative voltage at the collecter. The B-E > > >> > >> >> zener emits light that excites the B-C junction as a photodiode. > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > Since it's not April, the 1st, so.. please explain. :-) > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > Best regards, Piotr > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> I thought my description did explain it. Go on, try it: > > >> > >> > > >> > >> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/g9zwy6wyb4lhx4a/peasecon.pdf> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Have fun. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> piglet > > >> > > > > >> > >http://electronicdesign.com/site-files/electronicdesign.com/files/archive/electronicdesign.com/files/29/6362/figure_01.gif > > >> > > > > >> > >Applied for bias cancellation... > > >> > >http://electronicdesign.com/analog/single-supply-op-amp-input-bias-current-cancellation > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > Probably noisy. And maybe drifty. > > >> > > >> Dunno. Zeners are still lower noise than band-gaps, right? > > >> > > >> Woodward's one of the best, but it has been eighteen years since he > > >> wrote that. And he was souping up what is basically a high-test LM324, > > >> so it just might not matter that much. > > >> > > >> www.linear.com/product/LT1013 > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> James Arthur > > > > > >A quick glance says the noise is not outrageous. > > >('scope, AC couple, 2mV 20 MHz BW limit, about 2mVp-p.. > > >And most of that is still the 100 MHz that my lab is bathed > > >in. I had to turn the room light off also. High impedance and > > >all that. > > > > The source is high impedance so any capacitance (scope and such) > > lowpass filters the voltage noise. The ED application depends on the > > current into a summing point. Being optical, the current will have at > > least shot noise, plus anything the zener-optical effect adds. > > > > Pease conjectured that the effect is optical. Has that been verified? > How would you verify it? (Crack it open and look for light?) > Do you get light out of 7 volt zeners?Supposedly you can do exactly that--crack open a transistor can and see flashes of blue light. At 7 volts, you wonder why it isn't mostly U.V.> Could you have some higher energy electron > from the avalanche make it all the way across the base and then fall > down into the collector? (I think that gives the right sign.)For an NPN the electrons would be avalanching the wrong direction, from base to emitter, headed away from the collector, right? An LED-to-LED coupler would be cool. You can make several volts without needing +12v for Vbe(br), and with much better efficiency. Ordinary photocouplers should work too, as long as the base terminal is brought out. Saves all that optical shielding hassle too. Cheers, James Arthur
Reply by ●October 9, 20152015-10-09
On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:> On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 3:17:27 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote: > > On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 2:29:39 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > > > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:02:52 -0700 (PDT), George Herold > > > <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > > > > > > >On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:43:08 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > >> On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 1:19:50 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > > > >> > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > >On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 11:59:16 AM UTC-4, piglet wrote: > > > >> > >> On 08/10/2015 16:46, Piotr Wyderski wrote: > > > >> > >> > piglet wrote: > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> >> You don't even need an opto-coupler for that. As Pease wrote: just use a > > > >> > >> >> 2N2222 (or similar) with base grounded, zener the emitter junction with > > > >> > >> >> plenty mA and see a small negative voltage at the collecter. The B-E > > > >> > >> >> zener emits light that excites the B-C junction as a photodiode. > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > Since it's not April, the 1st, so.. please explain. :-) > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > Best regards, Piotr > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> I thought my description did explain it. Go on, try it: > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/g9zwy6wyb4lhx4a/peasecon.pdf> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Have fun. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> piglet > > > >> > > > > > >> > >http://electronicdesign.com/site-files/electronicdesign.com/files/archive/electronicdesign.com/files/29/6362/figure_01.gif > > > >> > > > > > >> > >Applied for bias cancellation... > > > >> > >http://electronicdesign.com/analog/single-supply-op-amp-input-bias-current-cancellation > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > Probably noisy. And maybe drifty. > > > >> > > > >> Dunno. Zeners are still lower noise than band-gaps, right? > > > >> > > > >> Woodward's one of the best, but it has been eighteen years since he > > > >> wrote that. And he was souping up what is basically a high-test LM324, > > > >> so it just might not matter that much. > > > >> > > > >> www.linear.com/product/LT1013 > > > >> > > > >> Cheers, > > > >> James Arthur > > > > > > > >A quick glance says the noise is not outrageous. > > > >('scope, AC couple, 2mV 20 MHz BW limit, about 2mVp-p.. > > > >And most of that is still the 100 MHz that my lab is bathed > > > >in. I had to turn the room light off also. High impedance and > > > >all that. > > > > > > The source is high impedance so any capacitance (scope and such) > > > lowpass filters the voltage noise. The ED application depends on the > > > current into a summing point. Being optical, the current will have at > > > least shot noise, plus anything the zener-optical effect adds. > > > > > > Pease conjectured that the effect is optical. Has that been verified? > > How would you verify it? (Crack it open and look for light?) > > Do you get light out of 7 volt zeners? > > Supposedly you can do exactly that--crack open a transistor can and see flashes > of blue light. At 7 volts, you wonder why it isn't mostly U.V.Well (as I assume you know) the breakdown voltage depends on the doping level, and how far electrons have to travel (mean free path and all) till they get enough energy to ionize impurity atoms. (piglet's article link sounds nice.)> > > Could you have some higher energy electron > > from the avalanche make it all the way across the base and then fall > > down into the collector? (I think that gives the right sign.) > > For an NPN the electrons would be avalanching the wrong direction, from > base to emitter, headed away from the collector, right?Oh, yeah... never mind. Since there is light the led->PD idea sounds fine.> > An LED-to-LED coupler would be cool. You can make several volts without > needing +12v for Vbe(br), and with much better efficiency.There are these (mosfet drivers???) where one led couples to a whole string of PD's to make a high voltage (at low current). I was stringing a few together and getting ~100V or so. George H.> > Ordinary photocouplers should work too, as long as the base terminal is > brought out. Saves all that optical shielding hassle too. > > Cheers, > James Arthur
