John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote:> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> writes: > >> Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: >> >>> Tim Williams <tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote: >>>> Making a CT is easy beans. A hundred turns on ferrite into a suitable >>>> resistor (a terminated transmission line, in this case) will easily do >>>> MHz, maybe 20 if it's somewhat small. Amazingly, commercial CTs can suck >>>> eggs: a Triad CST306 (I think) has its lowest resonant mode at something >>>> like 300kHz! >>>> >>>> It gets better if you wrap it with aluminum or copper tape, because this >>>> reduces the leakage inductance and coupling between winding segments, >>>> suppressing the helicotoroidial resonator modes. Probably, if lossy tape >>> >>> Word of the week ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> Yes I must try to use that one more often. >> >> But, Success! >> >> I built the transformer, along with the finger-shredding copper tape >> electrostatic shield. >> >> Seems to work well, as far as I have been able to test. >> >> Transimpedance is 20 ohms. >> >> Looks beautifully flat response when you look at the first 20MHz. >> >> Generally flat response continues to about 200MHz, with some +/- ~10dB >> wiggles up to 1GHz+. Don't know how much of this is the response, and >> how much the excitation. I might try my megastrip idea to test it >> further. >> >> Will try to post some pics later. > > OK, here it is: > > <http://ee.devereux.me.uk/hf-current-probe.jpg> > > I made a mistake, it is more like 7 or 8 ohms transimpedance. About 1 > ohm impedance on the "primary",as could be expected from the 7 turns and > 50 ohm secondary "burden". > > <http://ee.devereux.me.uk/plot0003.png> > > That is with 1mA from the tracking generator, so the 7.87mV display is > 7.87 Ohms.I love the display and output of HP stuff from that time. my scope has some silly parallel port printer module, and there's some painfully slow windows software that runs over a 9600 baud serial port to do screep captures like you posted. the fonts seem optimized for use with a plotter or something like that.
Homemade Wideband Current Transformer
Started by ●April 10, 2013
Reply by ●April 13, 20132013-04-13
Reply by ●April 14, 20132013-04-14
Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes:> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote: >> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> writes: >> >>> Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: >>> >>>> Tim Williams <tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote: >>>>> Making a CT is easy beans. A hundred turns on ferrite into a suitable >>>>> resistor (a terminated transmission line, in this case) will easily do >>>>> MHz, maybe 20 if it's somewhat small. Amazingly, commercial CTs can suck >>>>> eggs: a Triad CST306 (I think) has its lowest resonant mode at something >>>>> like 300kHz! >>>>> >>>>> It gets better if you wrap it with aluminum or copper tape, because this >>>>> reduces the leakage inductance and coupling between winding segments, >>>>> suppressing the helicotoroidial resonator modes. Probably, if lossy tape >>>> >>>> Word of the week ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> >>> Yes I must try to use that one more often. >>> >>> But, Success! >>> >>> I built the transformer, along with the finger-shredding copper tape >>> electrostatic shield. >>> >>> Seems to work well, as far as I have been able to test. >>> >>> Transimpedance is 20 ohms. >>> >>> Looks beautifully flat response when you look at the first 20MHz. >>> >>> Generally flat response continues to about 200MHz, with some +/- ~10dB >>> wiggles up to 1GHz+. Don't know how much of this is the response, and >>> how much the excitation. I might try my megastrip idea to test it >>> further. >>> >>> Will try to post some pics later. >> >> OK, here it is: >> >> <http://ee.devereux.me.uk/hf-current-probe.jpg> >> >> I made a mistake, it is more like 7 or 8 ohms transimpedance. About 1 >> ohm impedance on the "primary",as could be expected from the 7 turns and >> 50 ohm secondary "burden". >> >> <http://ee.devereux.me.uk/plot0003.png> >> >> That is with 1mA from the tracking generator, so the 7.87mV display is >> 7.87 Ohms. > > I love the display and output of HP stuff from that time.Yes it's nice - picture a bit blurry since was just my mobile phone.> my scope has some silly parallel port printer module, and there's some > painfully slow windows software that runs over a 9600 baud serial port to > do screep captures like you posted. the fonts seem optimized for use with > a plotter or something like that.The spectrum analyzer expects to plot to a plotter, so that plot was acquired over GPIB, then run through a HPGL to PNG filter. You can tweak options to get different resolution and colours / line thicknesses for the various elements of the plot. -- John Devereux
Reply by ●April 15, 20132013-04-15
John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote:> Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: > >> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote: >>> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> writes: >>> >>>> Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: >>>> >>>>> Tim Williams <tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote: >>>>>> Making a CT is easy beans. A hundred turns on ferrite into a suitable >>>>>> resistor (a terminated transmission line, in this case) will easily do >>>>>> MHz, maybe 20 if it's somewhat small. Amazingly, commercial CTs can suck >>>>>> eggs: a Triad CST306 (I think) has its lowest resonant mode at something >>>>>> like 300kHz! >>>>>> >>>>>> It gets better if you wrap it with aluminum or copper tape, because this >>>>>> reduces the leakage inductance and coupling between winding segments, >>>>>> suppressing the helicotoroidial resonator modes. Probably, if lossy tape >>>>> >>>>> Word of the week ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>> >>>> Yes I must try to use that one more often. >>>> >>>> But, Success! >>>> >>>> I built the transformer, along with the finger-shredding copper tape >>>> electrostatic shield. >>>> >>>> Seems to work well, as far as I have been able to test. >>>> >>>> Transimpedance is 20 ohms. >>>> >>>> Looks beautifully flat response when you look at the first 20MHz. >>>> >>>> Generally flat response continues to about 200MHz, with some +/- ~10dB >>>> wiggles up to 1GHz+. Don't know how much of this is the response, and >>>> how much the excitation. I might try my megastrip idea to test it >>>> further. >>>> >>>> Will try to post some pics later. >>> >>> OK, here it is: >>> >>> <http://ee.devereux.me.uk/hf-current-probe.jpg> >>> >>> I made a mistake, it is more like 7 or 8 ohms transimpedance. About 1 >>> ohm impedance on the "primary",as could be expected from the 7 turns and >>> 50 ohm secondary "burden". >>> >>> <http://ee.devereux.me.uk/plot0003.png> >>> >>> That is with 1mA from the tracking generator, so the 7.87mV display is >>> 7.87 Ohms. >> >> I love the display and output of HP stuff from that time. > > Yes it's nice - picture a bit blurry since was just my mobile phone. > >> my scope has some silly parallel port printer module, and there's some >> painfully slow windows software that runs over a 9600 baud serial port to >> do screep captures like you posted. the fonts seem optimized for use with >> a plotter or something like that. > > The spectrum analyzer expects to plot to a plotter, so that plot was > acquired over GPIB, then run through a HPGL to PNG filter. You can tweak > options to get different resolution and colours / line thicknesses for > the various elements of the plot.Have you used any GPIB to USB converters that function and didn't cost $500? It seems silly to run out and buy a PCI card for this and be chained to one desktop forever.
Reply by ●April 15, 20132013-04-15
Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes:> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote: >> Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: >> >>> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote:[...]>> The spectrum analyzer expects to plot to a plotter, so that plot was >> acquired over GPIB, then run through a HPGL to PNG filter. You can tweak >> options to get different resolution and colours / line thicknesses for >> the various elements of the plot. > > Have you used any GPIB to USB converters that function and didn't cost > $500?No, actually.> It seems silly to run out and buy a PCI card for this and be chained to > one desktop forever.Yes, I use a old SFF PC just for that, running a linux distribution. It does all the "GPIB stuff", has scripts to automate various "experiments". It's headless, just a box, but I can remote in to it of course. For the rare times I go "on the road" when I need GPIB I do have a NI USB interface, but it is not quite as reliable. The thing that causes most problems is handling a "screen dump" from the various instruments. I think they all want to be controlling a HP plotter then, instead of being controlled by a GPIB master. I never really got to the bottom of it, but I needed the PCI card to get it to work reliably. -- John Devereux
Reply by ●April 15, 20132013-04-15
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:12:55 +0100, John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote:>Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: > >> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote: >>> Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: >>>=20 >>>> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote: > >[...] > >>> The spectrum analyzer expects to plot to a plotter, so that plot was >>> acquired over GPIB, then run through a HPGL to PNG filter. You can =tweak>>> options to get different resolution and colours / line thicknesses =for>>> the various elements of the plot. >> >> Have you used any GPIB to USB converters that function and didn't cost==20>> $500? > >No, actually. > >> It seems silly to run out and buy a PCI card for this and be chained =to=20>> one desktop forever. > >Yes, I use a old SFF PC just for that, running a linux distribution. It >does all the "GPIB stuff", has scripts to automate various >"experiments". It's headless, just a box, but I can remote in to it of >course. For the rare times I go "on the road" when I need GPIB I do have >a NI USB interface, but it is not quite as reliable. > >The thing that causes most problems is handling a "screen dump" from the >various instruments. I think they all want to be controlling a HP >plotter then, instead of being controlled by a GPIB master. I never >really got to the bottom of it, but I needed the PCI card to get it to >work reliably.Personally i use the Prologix, LLC devices; nicely better price. Seem to work just fine. Back in the day i used to be a bit if a GPIB guru. Ask me by PM to discuss the instrument to plotter things. We may need to trick the interface a bit to read the control words that activate the plotter. However they are usually settable in the instrument GPIB menus. Some configurations do not need the control words (promiscuous transmit and receive). ?-)
Reply by ●April 15, 20132013-04-15
John Devereux wrote:> > Hi, > > Since it seems a useful thing to have, I am making a wideband current > probe, ~10-1000MHz, like one of these: > > <http://www.interferencetechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Figure42.jpg> > > Every home should have one. It's from the article: > > <http://www.interferencetechnology.com/the-hf-current-probe-theory-and-application/>* Takes forever in load attempt; i gave up.> > 1) They suggest an electrostatic shield made from copper tape, "with a > small gap around the inside of the toroid". Well this turns out to be a > PITA, I have shredded finger tips from copper cuts and am pausing for > thought. > > What about just using very thin coax instead, and using it's shield as > the - uh - shield?* Should work fine; ground ONLT one end; the other leave open.> > > 2) The output frequency response of a commercial probe is supposed to > look nice and smooth like this: > > <http://www.fischercc.com/ViewProductGroup.aspx?productgroupid=127> > <http://www.fischercc.com/productfiles/DS%20F-51%20Rev--RLSE_cd51.pdf> > > But he is measuring more like this for both the home-made and > commercial: > > <http://www.interferencetechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Figure9.jpg>* Takes forever in load attempt; i gave up.> > Is there a better way to do this measurement? > > > Needless to say I am a neophyte at RF, but do have some kit available > (thanks, ebay). > >
Reply by ●April 15, 20132013-04-15
Jeroen Belleman wrote:> On 2013-04-10 22:44, John Devereux wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Since it seems a useful thing to have, I am making a wideband current >> probe, ~10-1000MHz, like one of these: >> >> <http://www.interferencetechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Figure42.jpg> >> >> >> Every home should have one. It's from the article: > > To get a response curve that makes sense for an RF current transformer, > you have to be able to excite it with a known current. The usual way > to do so is by inserting the transformer into a suitably sized > and carefully terminated coaxial transmission line. The line's > characteristic impedance ensures that the current is flat over > frequency (to within a few dB or so). The 'suitable size' bit is > to make sure that the insertion of the transformer does not make > a discontinuity in its impedance. I check this through reflectometry: > The line with the transformer in place should look like a smooth > transmission line all the way through. > > That's the way I test beam current transformers here. In its final > application, the primary is not a wire; It's a particle beam. I get > bandwidths of about 3GHz. OK, my kit is upwards of 35k$ a piece. > Then again, it's all custom made, has to hold a vacuum too, be > radiation resistant, etc. That has a way of driving up the cost... > (Just the ferrite cores are 1k$ a piece, and I use five.) > > Come to think of it, the thing is warped such that many wouldn't > even recognize it as a transformer. We call them "wall current > monitors". Here's a picture, if anyone is interested: > <http://cern.ch/psring/psring/showpicture.php?section=03> > > Jeroen Belleman >Sadly, the link to the drawing fails.
Reply by ●April 16, 20132013-04-16
On 2013-04-16 05:47, Robert Baer wrote:> Jeroen Belleman wrote: >> [...] We call them "wall current >> monitors". Here's a picture, if anyone is interested: >> <http://cern.ch/psring/psring/showpicture.php?section=03> >> >> Jeroen Belleman >> > Sadly, the link to the drawing fails. >Yes, I'm not very surprised. It's a php script putting out a TIFF picture. It has 'header("Content-type: image/tif");' as the first line producing output. That works fine for Mozilla- type browsers, but IE doesn't seem to understand it. So I put in a quick hack that makes it work in-house at least. Of course, you are outside. If you have a suggestion towards a good fix, I'm all ears. Jeroen Belleman
Reply by ●April 16, 20132013-04-16
josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> writes:> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:12:55 +0100, John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> > wrote: > >>Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: >> >>> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote: >>>> Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: >>>> >>>>> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote: >> >>[...] >> >>>> The spectrum analyzer expects to plot to a plotter, so that plot was >>>> acquired over GPIB, then run through a HPGL to PNG filter. You can tweak >>>> options to get different resolution and colours / line thicknesses for >>>> the various elements of the plot. >>> >>> Have you used any GPIB to USB converters that function and didn't cost >>> $500? >> >>No, actually. >> >>> It seems silly to run out and buy a PCI card for this and be chained to >>> one desktop forever. >> >>Yes, I use a old SFF PC just for that, running a linux distribution. It >>does all the "GPIB stuff", has scripts to automate various >>"experiments". It's headless, just a box, but I can remote in to it of >>course. For the rare times I go "on the road" when I need GPIB I do have >>a NI USB interface, but it is not quite as reliable. >> >>The thing that causes most problems is handling a "screen dump" from the >>various instruments. I think they all want to be controlling a HP >>plotter then, instead of being controlled by a GPIB master. I never >>really got to the bottom of it, but I needed the PCI card to get it to >>work reliably. > > Personally i use the Prologix, LLC devices; nicely better price. Seem to > work just fine.I have used that too, worked fine for simple things, but ISTR it seemed to get lost when doing sequences of commands. Or I did.> Back in the day i used to be a bit if a GPIB guru. Ask me by PM to > discuss the instrument to plotter things. We may need to trick the > interface a bit to read the control words that activate the plotter. > However they are usually settable in the instrument GPIB menus. Some > configurations do not need the control words (promiscuous transmit and > receive).Thanks Joseph that is a generous offer :) I would love to take you up on it sometime but I am up to my neck in other projects at the moment, would not be able to do it justice! Thanks, -- John Devereux
Reply by ●April 16, 20132013-04-16
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:37:00 -0700 josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote in Message id: <updpm8lf7r1n4ggle7hql9ot0nfkmmp6pd@4ax.com>:>On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:12:55 +0100, John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> >wrote: > >>Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: >> >>> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote: >>>> Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes: >>>> >>>>> John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote: >> >>[...] >> >>>> The spectrum analyzer expects to plot to a plotter, so that plot was >>>> acquired over GPIB, then run through a HPGL to PNG filter. You can tweak >>>> options to get different resolution and colours / line thicknesses for >>>> the various elements of the plot. >>> >>> Have you used any GPIB to USB converters that function and didn't cost >>> $500? >> >>No, actually. >> >>> It seems silly to run out and buy a PCI card for this and be chained to >>> one desktop forever. >> >>Yes, I use a old SFF PC just for that, running a linux distribution. It >>does all the "GPIB stuff", has scripts to automate various >>"experiments". It's headless, just a box, but I can remote in to it of >>course. For the rare times I go "on the road" when I need GPIB I do have >>a NI USB interface, but it is not quite as reliable. >> >>The thing that causes most problems is handling a "screen dump" from the >>various instruments. I think they all want to be controlling a HP >>plotter then, instead of being controlled by a GPIB master. I never >>really got to the bottom of it, but I needed the PCI card to get it to >>work reliably. > >Personally i use the Prologix, LLC devices; nicely better price. Seem to >work just fine. >Back in the day i used to be a bit if a GPIB guru. Ask me by PM to >discuss the instrument to plotter things. We may need to trick the >interface a bit to read the control words that activate the plotter. >However they are usually settable in the instrument GPIB menus. Some >configurations do not need the control words (promiscuous transmit and >receive).I've heard good things about this adapter that is alleged to be 100% compatible with Agilent's controller. And the price can't be beat. http://bmjd.biz/
