transformer core material

AIUI you use iron cores for low frequency and ferrite for high frequency 
because ferrite doesn't get magnetized, so why couldn't aluminum do the 
same?


-- 
 Defund the Thought Police 

 Tom Del Rosso wrote:
==================
>
> AIUI you use iron cores for low frequency and ferrite for high frequency 
> because ferrite doesn't get magnetized,

**  LOL  -  wrong. 

Most loudspeakers use FERRITE magnets ! 


>  so why couldn't aluminum do the  same? 

** Or a piece of wood ? 

FYI   

the whole point of a core is that it DOES get magnetised. 
And as easily as possible and with the least energy losses when cycled in each direction. 
Iron / Silicon alloys are is the only materials that do that well at low frequencies.

Ferrite has very low losses at at ALL frequencies but cannot compare with iron at low ones for sheer brute force.


....  Phil 


  

Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> AIUI you use iron cores for low frequency and ferrite for high frequency 
> because ferrite doesn't get magnetized, so why couldn't aluminum do the 
> same?

You *want* a transformer core to be easily magnetized! You don't
want it to *stay* magnetized when the current goes to zero.

Iron is good in low-frequency transformers because it has a high
saturation field and high permeability, so you can get away with
relatively few turns for the windings. Its disadvantage is that it
is conductive, so there will be eddy current losses, which get
rapidly worse with higher frequency. Those losses can be reduced
by making the core out of thin insulated laminations, but this
gets impractical quite fast.

Ferrite has a lower permeability and lower saturation field, but
it's an insulator, so it doesn't sustain eddy currents.

That's the simple view. Magnetic materials are complicated and
lots of effort has been spent on finding the best materials for
specific applications. There are hundreds of different kinds of
magnetic materials, maybe thousands.

Jeroen Belleman

 Jeroen Belleman wrote:
===================
> 
> Iron is good in low-frequency transformers because it has a high 
> saturation field and high permeability, so you can get away with 
> relatively few turns for the windings. Its disadvantage is that it 
> is conductive, so there will be eddy current losses, which get 
> rapidly worse with higher frequency. Those losses can be reduced 
> by making the core out of thin insulated laminations, but this 
> gets impractical quite fast. 
>

**  Typical iron core transformers intended for 50/60 Hz can be used to 20kHz and beyond with no such issue. 
     As the operating frequency rises, core magnetisation falls cancelling any rise in losses.  

   

.......  Phil 
    
  

Phil Allison wrote:
>  Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> ===================
>> Iron is good in low-frequency transformers because it has a high 
>> saturation field and high permeability, so you can get away with 
>> relatively few turns for the windings. Its disadvantage is that it 
>> is conductive, so there will be eddy current losses, which get 
>> rapidly worse with higher frequency. Those losses can be reduced 
>> by making the core out of thin insulated laminations, but this 
>> gets impractical quite fast. 
>>
> 
> **  Typical iron core transformers intended for 50/60 Hz can be used to 20kHz and beyond with no such issue. 
>      As the operating frequency rises, core magnetisation falls cancelling any rise in losses.  
> 
>    
> 
> .......  Phil 

Why isn't laminated iron good for RF transformer cores then?

Jeroen Belleman

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> Phil Allison wrote: 
-----------------------------------------
> >> Iron is good in low-frequency transformers because it has a high 
> >> saturation field and high permeability, so you can get away with 
> >> relatively few turns for the windings. Its disadvantage is that it 
> >> is conductive, so there will be eddy current losses, which get 
> >> rapidly worse with higher frequency. Those losses can be reduced 
> >> by making the core out of thin insulated laminations, but this 
> >> gets impractical quite fast. 
> >> 
> > 
> > ** Typical iron core transformers intended for 50/60 Hz can be used to 20kHz and beyond with no such issue. 
> > As the operating frequency rises, core magnetisation falls cancelling any rise in losses. 
>
> > 
> Why isn't laminated iron good for RF transformer cores then? 

**  You have misunderstood my post. 

  


......   Phil 

Phil Allison wrote:
> Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>> Phil Allison wrote: 
> -----------------------------------------
>>>> Iron is good in low-frequency transformers because it has a high 
>>>> saturation field and high permeability, so you can get away with 
>>>> relatively few turns for the windings. Its disadvantage is that it 
>>>> is conductive, so there will be eddy current losses, which get 
>>>> rapidly worse with higher frequency. Those losses can be reduced 
>>>> by making the core out of thin insulated laminations, but this 
>>>> gets impractical quite fast. 
>>>>
>>> ** Typical iron core transformers intended for 50/60 Hz can be used to 20kHz and beyond with no such issue. 
>>> As the operating frequency rises, core magnetisation falls cancelling any rise in losses. 
>> Why isn't laminated iron good for RF transformer cores then? 
> 
> **  You have misunderstood my post. 
> 
> ......   Phil 


It's true I assumed constant Bmax. I should have said so.
Constant voltage, as you assumed, is indeed more natural.

I measured the frequency response of a few iron core
transformers: A 75VA rectangular-core worked well up
to 40kHz, while a similar sized toroid went up to only
about 10kHz (-3dB), measured between the two independent
15V windings of each. This was with a tiny excitation
voltage, which may mess up the results.

Jeroen Belleman

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
==================
>>> 
> >>> ** Typical iron core transformers intended for 50/60 Hz can be used to 20kHz and beyond with no such issue. 
> >>> As the operating frequency rises, core magnetisation falls cancelling any rise in losses. 
> >> Why isn't laminated iron good for RF transformer cores then? 
> > 
> > ** You have misunderstood my post. 
> >
>
> It's true I assumed constant Bmax. I should have said so. 
> Constant voltage, as you assumed, is indeed more natural. 
> 
 ** Well, I deal  lot with audio transformers  - from mic input to hundreds of watts. 


> I measured the frequency response of a few iron core 
> transformers: A 75VA rectangular-core worked well up 
> to 40kHz, 

**  Yep.  Audio output types go to about 60kHz or more. 


>while a similar sized toroid went up to only 
> about 10kHz (-3dB), measured between the two independent 
> 15V windings of each. 

** That is odd,  toroidals are usually the best with -3dB responses to 100kHz. 
   Just the fact the secondary is wound all over the primary does the trick.

What cannot be done is having a tiny laminated iron core running at 100kHz and high power. 

As well as ferrite there are "powdered iron" cores and toroids that will. 
Another material is  "amorphous steel" which as very low losses. 


......   Phil 

On 2021-08-25 23:21, Phil Allison wrote:
> Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> ==================
>>>>
>>>>> ** Typical iron core transformers intended for 50/60 Hz can be used to 20kHz and beyond with no such issue.
>>>>> As the operating frequency rises, core magnetisation falls cancelling any rise in losses.
>>>> Why isn't laminated iron good for RF transformer cores then?
>>>
>>> ** You have misunderstood my post.
>>>
>>
>> It's true I assumed constant Bmax. I should have said so.
>> Constant voltage, as you assumed, is indeed more natural.
>>
>   ** Well, I deal  lot with audio transformers  - from mic input to hundreds of watts.
>
>
>> I measured the frequency response of a few iron core
>> transformers: A 75VA rectangular-core worked well up
>> to 40kHz,
>
> **  Yep.  Audio output types go to about 60kHz or more.
>
>
>> while a similar sized toroid went up to only
>> about 10kHz (-3dB), measured between the two independent
>> 15V windings of each.
>
> ** That is odd,  toroidals are usually the best with -3dB responses to 100kHz.
>     Just the fact the secondary is wound all over the primary does the trick.
>
> What cannot be done is having a tiny laminated iron core running at 100kHz and high power.
>
> As well as ferrite there are "powdered iron" cores and toroids that will.
> Another material is  "amorphous steel" which as very low losses.
>
>
> ......   Phil
>
>
>

On 2021-08-25 23:21, Phil Allison wrote:
> Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> ==================
>>>>
>>>>> ** Typical iron core transformers intended for 50/60 Hz can be used to 20kHz and beyond with no such issue.
>>>>> As the operating frequency rises, core magnetisation falls cancelling any rise in losses.
>>>> Why isn't laminated iron good for RF transformer cores then?
>>>
>>> ** You have misunderstood my post.
>>>
>>
>> It's true I assumed constant Bmax. I should have said so.
>> Constant voltage, as you assumed, is indeed more natural.
>>
>   ** Well, I deal  lot with audio transformers  - from mic input to hundreds of watts.
>
>
>> I measured the frequency response of a few iron core
>> transformers: A 75VA rectangular-core worked well up
>> to 40kHz,
>
> **  Yep.  Audio output types go to about 60kHz or more.
>
>
>> while a similar sized toroid went up to only
>> about 10kHz (-3dB), measured between the two independent
>> 15V windings of each.
>
> ** That is odd,  toroidals are usually the best with -3dB responses to 100kHz.
>     Just the fact the secondary is wound all over the primary does the trick.

It surprised me too. I also measured an inter-winding capacitance of
2nF, which strikes me as high. The drop-off was a resonance dip.

>
> What cannot be done is having a tiny laminated iron core running at 100kHz and high power.
>
> As well as ferrite there are "powdered iron" cores and toroids that will.
> Another material is  "amorphous steel" which as very low losses.

I use transformers for RF. I've used ferrite, of course, but also metglas
and similar materials. The cores are mostly there for the low end of the
frequency range. Beyond a few MHz, you really want to keep the flux out
of the core, which is done by using transmission lines for the windings.
Some of my transformers are good to 9GHz, but those bear little resemblance
to a traditional wound transformer.

Jeroen Belleman