moon race

The idiot Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

> X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4d8f:0:b0:66c:ff50:b900 with SMTP id cv15-20020ad44d8f000000b0066cff50b900mr176996qvb.4.1700120192614;
>         Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:36:32 -0800 (PST)
> X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:a898:b0:280:25e9:ffd4 with SMTP id
>  h24-20020a17090aa89800b0028025e9ffd4mr240056pjq.0.1700120192096; Wed, 15 Nov
>  2023 23:36:32 -0800 (PST)
> Path: not-for-mail
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:36:31 -0800 (PST)
> In-Reply-To: <uj4c8b$1imhm$1@solani.org>
> Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=59.102.83.245; posting-account=SJ46pgoAAABuUDuHc5uDiXN30ATE-zi-
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 59.102.83.245
> References: <rak4lipre2a8p4ifagehq2o894ebaakok3@4ax.com> <dfb44dbe-dc95-421f-a74d-e4f88e7ef6a5n@googlegroups.com>
>  <u5n4li11gpbgskqobfr6vpm2hl2jmc2s5n@4ax.com> <67a5b770-9808-45ba-95d1-4410d6a0f706n@googlegroups.com>
>  <6ea5li9jd5v2klac279m4499ocbrfh304t@4ax.com> <uivflg$16958$1@dont-email.me>
>  <u937lipvrvsfuhue2lr5h48558spk4o3v5@4ax.com> <dd5a55aa-050a-4664-a19b-56bd2149f477n@googlegroups.com>
>  <uj4c8b$1imhm$1@solani.org>
> User-Agent: G2/1.0
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Message-ID: <56f01630-2ae9-4a46-bb89-243c76e44e8en@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: moon race
> From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
> Injection-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 07:36:32 +0000
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> X-Received-Bytes: 5456

The arsehole Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

> X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5687:0:b0:41b:7fa1:ab34 with SMTP id h7-20020ac85687000000b0041b7fa1ab34mr158171qta.0.1700115378845;
>         Wed, 15 Nov 2023 22:16:18 -0800 (PST)
> X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:db09:b0:1bc:4452:59c4 with SMTP id
>  m9-20020a170902db0900b001bc445259c4mr243439plx.4.1700115378375; Wed, 15 Nov
>  2023 22:16:18 -0800 (PST)
> Path: not-for-mail
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 22:16:17 -0800 (PST)
> In-Reply-To: <0hp9li5qvuutioq03li9d7c78licq4phl8@4ax.com>
> Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=59.102.83.245; posting-account=SJ46pgoAAABuUDuHc5uDiXN30ATE-zi-
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 59.102.83.245
> References: <rak4lipre2a8p4ifagehq2o894ebaakok3@4ax.com> <dfb44dbe-dc95-421f-a74d-e4f88e7ef6a5n@googlegroups.com>
>  <u5n4li11gpbgskqobfr6vpm2hl2jmc2s5n@4ax.com> <uiv20u$1g4i2$1@solani.org>
>  <nh47li5varc5qv835u57jt3bgr0fgu7l7s@4ax.com> <uj1n87$1hgrs$1@solani.org> <0hp9li5qvuutioq03li9d7c78licq4phl8@4ax.com>
> User-Agent: G2/1.0
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Message-ID: <87339545-299e-45f4-90e4-02c023e06738n@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: moon race
> From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
> Injection-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 06:16:18 +0000
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> X-Received-Bytes: 4502

The arsehole Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: moon race
> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 06:04:52 GMT
> Message-ID: <uj4be5$1im7p$1@solani.org>
> References: <rak4lipre2a8p4ifagehq2o894ebaakok3@4ax.com> <dfb44dbe-dc95-421f-a74d-e4f88e7ef6a5n@googlegroups.com> <u5n4li11gpbgskqobfr6vpm2hl2jmc2s5n@4ax.com> <uiv20u$1g4i2$1@solani.org> <nh47li5varc5qv835u57jt3bgr0fgu7l7s@4ax.com> <uj1n87$1hgrs$1@solani.org> <0hp9li5qvuutioq03li9d7c78licq4phl8@4ax.com>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; ISO-8859-15
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Injection-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 06:04:53 -0000 (UTC)
> Injection-Info: solani.org;
> 	logging-data="1661177"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@news.solani.org"
> User-Agent: NewsFleX-1.5.7.5 (Linux-5.15.32-v7l+)
> Cancel-Lock: sha1:wWu3QW+Ir+Mikc1TtJLRB6mK8ac=
> X-Newsreader-location: NewsFleX-1.5.7.5 (c) 'LIGHTSPEED' off line news reader for the Linux platform
>  NewsFleX homepage: http://www.panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/ and ftp download ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/linux/system/news/readers/ 
> X-User-ID: eJwFwQkBwDAIA0BLPAmscgoF/xJ2Rw+NTgQDXO7owTW8mZj2krzUYVUaKe72sdZUTI7Uwn12OjdVHjoM8gNQvRUV
> X-Received-Bytes: 4916

The arsehole Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: moon race
> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 06:18:51 GMT
> Message-ID: <uj4c8b$1imhm$1@solani.org>
> References: <rak4lipre2a8p4ifagehq2o894ebaakok3@4ax.com> <dfb44dbe-dc95-421f-a74d-e4f88e7ef6a5n@googlegroups.com> <u5n4li11gpbgskqobfr6vpm2hl2jmc2s5n@4ax.com> <67a5b770-9808-45ba-95d1-4410d6a0f706n@googlegroups.com> <6ea5li9jd5v2klac279m4499ocbrfh304t@4ax.com> <uivflg$16958$1@dont-email.me> <u937lipvrvsfuhue2lr5h48558spk4o3v5@4ax.com> <dd5a55aa-050a-4664-a19b-56bd2149f477n@googlegroups.com>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; ISO-8859-15
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Injection-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 06:18:51 -0000 (UTC)
> Injection-Info: solani.org; logging-data="1661494"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@news.solani.org"
> User-Agent: NewsFleX-1.5.7.5 (Linux-5.15.32-v7l+)
> Cancel-Lock: sha1:w0BrmCqu5NV4F+CT58yztsXJM8I=
> X-User-ID: eJwFwQkRADAIAzBL4/iGHAatfwlLXENi0sLDnM7R1axe2LM6HCFuEEmBeBZno5AHnsDlS3BrtPspXS/6A4OtFzs=
> X-Newsreader-location: NewsFleX-1.5.7.5 (c) 'LIGHTSPEED' off line news reader for the Linux platform NewsFleX homepage: http://www.panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/ and ftp download ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/linux/system/news/readers/
> X-Received-Bytes: 4350

The idiot Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: moon race
> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:16:37 +0000
> Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
> Lines: 45
> Message-ID: <uj4tmr$284bt$1@dont-email.me>
> References: <rak4lipre2a8p4ifagehq2o894ebaakok3@4ax.com>
>  <dfb44dbe-dc95-421f-a74d-e4f88e7ef6a5n@googlegroups.com>
>  <u5n4li11gpbgskqobfr6vpm2hl2jmc2s5n@4ax.com>
>  <67a5b770-9808-45ba-95d1-4410d6a0f706n@googlegroups.com>
>  <6ea5li9jd5v2klac279m4499ocbrfh304t@4ax.com> <uivflg$16958$1@dont-email.me>
>  <u937lipvrvsfuhue2lr5h48558spk4o3v5@4ax.com>
>  <dd5a55aa-050a-4664-a19b-56bd2149f477n@googlegroups.com>
>  <qk8ali56addu9bna1iv8hcscb4nou24pii@4ax.com>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Injection-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:16:44 -0000 (UTC)
> Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="2da3cb937c29cf8f833fe24ff58e8472";
> 	logging-data="2363773"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18JZaZqyfN81/JO9HWyOI81HzV7UlfS4pSKbB7b6aA0vA=="
> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
> Cancel-Lock: sha1:ggcSfK96xSnMSsx4YM98/UIFjA8=
> Content-Language: en-GB
> In-Reply-To: <qk8ali56addu9bna1iv8hcscb4nou24pii@4ax.com>
> X-Received-Bytes: 3271

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:16:37 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 15/11/2023 20:06, john larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 09:01:06 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 7:29:10?AM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
>
>>>> Steam engines inspired thermodynamics, not the reverse.
>>>
>>> Nonsense; thermodynamics was what the steam tables were all about,
>> 
>> Newcomen had steam tables?
>
>In the early days it was purely empirical and based on indicator 
>diagrams where the work done could be estimated. The jig for doing that 
>to optimise a steam engine was a very closely guarded trade secret for 
>some considerable time (decades). So closely guarded that there were 
>multiple independent inventors of the rick and litigation about it.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indicator_diagram
>
>Clapeyron (and Bernoulli) eventually formalised the theory.

The indicator diagram came along about 80 years after the Newcomen
engine. Another case of science trailing invention.

Science is shockingly conventional, un-imaginative, and resistant to
new ideas. Or at least the scientific community is.

"Science progresses one funeral at a time."

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 06:18:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Wed, 15 Nov 2023 09:01:06 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd
><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
><dd5a55aa-050a-4664-a19b-56bd2149f477n@googlegroups.com>:
>
>>On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 7:29:10&#8239;AM UTC-8, John Larkin wrot=
>>e:
>>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 09:46:24 +0000, Martin Brown 
>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: 
>>
>>> >Science invents and discovers new things that have no apparent 
>>> >usefulness at the time of their discovery. It is usually a few decades=
>> 
>>> >before industry even gets remotely interested in such breakthroughs. 
>>
>>
>>> People built structures and water systems before there was any 
>>> corresponding science.
>>
>>That's not clear.   The "corresponding science" may just not have been
>>written down; language arts and writing are recent compared to
>>structures and water systems as we know them from archaeology.
>>
>>> Basic concepts of sanitation and medical 
>>> hygiene preceded knowledge of bacteria and viruses. 
>>
>>That just means we've got a few steps farther in our understanding
>>those things, not that 'science' wasn't present  in the early concepts.
>>
>>> We had eyeglasses 
>>> and telescopes before there was any theory of optics. 
>>
>>Huh?   "any theory" cannot have been absent for producing telescopes, thoug=
>>h
>>the optical design of those early years may not have been the rich field of=
>> knowledge
>>that optics later became.
>>
>>>Franklin and Ohm 
>>> and Edison and DeForest invented electronics before anyone understood 
>>> the physics. 
>>
>>They were early researchers, in a sense; obviously "the physics" was what F=
>>ranklin
>>and Ohm were researching.   They didn't  precede it, they led it.
>>
>>>Steam engines inspired thermodynamics, not the reverse. 
>>
>>Nonsense; thermodynamics was what the steam tables were all about,
>>the whole point  of science is to have a good grasp of reality even when
>>the apparatus isn't yet built.   You cannot call engines an inspiration of =
>>knowledge
>>and deny that knowledge inspires invention.
>>
>>> It's hard to think of a case where science preceded invention,  ...
>>
>>They both arise from confusion, which is apparently where John Larkin is dw=
>>elling.
>
>You sound like some other script that used to run here
>
>John is right
>All starts with 'observation'
>when the guy observed the kettle lid pushing up
>he decided to make it turn a wheel.
>When some guy used electrickety on a frog leg...
>Gun powder ..
>
>Then models were made, mamamatical equations were made to APPROXIMATE
>what was observed, so you could sort of scale things or predict things.
>The models were modified over time as more was found out about what was
>really happening.
>This is all still going on.
>Unfortunately many (like Albert E. parrots) take those mamamatical equations
>for reality, and they cannot see... Becomes their religion so to speak.
>

Yes, observations and inventions are usually made by amateur
experimenters, and scientists are inspired (actually surprised) and
follow up with theory to make things better. Not always, but usually.
The airplane is a good example.

There are a few cases where scientists really invented something based
on theory. The maser is one example, and the bipolar transistor was an
accident discovered while investigating solid-state physics with a
practical goal. Radar, maybe, but it had hints from accidental
observations.

Science education should include courses in thinking crazy.

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 06:04:52 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Wed, 15 Nov 2023 07:42:39 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <0hp9li5qvuutioq03li9d7c78licq4phl8@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 06:08:06 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:34:38 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <nh47li5varc5qv835u57jt3bgr0fgu7l7s@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 05:53:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:31:08 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>>><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <u5n4li11gpbgskqobfr6vpm2hl2jmc2s5n@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:15:48 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>>>>><bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 11:45:05?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/concerns-growing-over-the-new-moon-space-race-between-china-and-the-us/ar-AA1jQ6iU 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This makes no sense to me. Who cares if China or India waste a 
>>>>>>>> trillion dollars "establishing norms" on the moon? How many kids are 
>>>>>>>> going hungry to bring back more boring moon dirt? 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And "space" is pretty big. Nobody is going to dominate space.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's 21st century circus for the fools...both of those places are in dire need of freeing up the geniuses distracted by
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>waste to work on more pressing down to Earth problems, like feeding themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>One argument is that spending resources on NASA equivalents bootstraps
>>>>>>technology in a poor country. I think they have that backwards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's tragic how much North Korea spends on missiles and cannons and
>>>>>>nukes.
>>>>>
>>>>>US is the poorest country on the planet, 
>>>>
>>>>That's silly. 
>>>>
>>>>>its debt is the biggest
>>>>
>>>>As a fraction of GDP, it's not. Look it up.
>>>>
>>>>>It sells weapons to its own people and others, payed for by that debt and their tax payers.
>>>>>The people are poor, homelessness is extreme, people killing each other for automatic weans,
>>>>>they designed things like COVID, many of their products suck
>>>>>and are expensive,
>>>>
>>>>If you don't like american technology, don't use it.
>>>
>>>Right
>>>Chinese stuff is cheaper and works 99% of the time.
>>
>>So a board that uses 300 Chinese parts will work 5% of the time.
>
>You twist the facts
>I buy complete Chinese stuff, satellite receiver, DVB-T reeiver, 
>several modules like GPS, motion sensors, temperature and air pressure sensors,
>power supply modules, radios, multimeters, wallwarts, LNBs,the list is much longer.
>All work
>Of all the separate semiconductors I have ordered only one time I got a buch that did not
>do what that chip number implied, got a refund.
>Even my drone is made in China, OLED modules too, flashlighs, UV light, SDcard reader.. just looking around...
>You could not make any of it for that money.
>TV remotes...
>LED srips (not sure if that is from China but I think so), hundreds of LEDs..
>for your Christmas lighting..

I suppose they test their stuff before they ship it, which is why
about 80% of the Chinese electronics works right when it arrives.

But I don't buy assembled electronics, I design electronics from
parts. This is a design newsgroup.

>
>
>
>>>US men die 6 years before women, as life expectancy gap widens:
>>
>>> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231114215650.htm
>>
>>Surfing and skydiving and mountain climbing and suntanning with babes
>>on the beach are dangerous.
>
>Yep
>And serving uncle Joe 
> High lung cancer rates in naval veterans linked to asbestos:
>  https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231114143823.htm

Asbestos wasn't unique to the USA. Nor were cigarettes, except that
americans could afford lots of cigs.

Hardly anyone around here smokes tobacco any more.

The idiot John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 15:45:44 +0000
> From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: moon race
> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 07:45:16 -0800
> Organization: Highland Tech
> Reply-To: xx@yy.com
> Message-ID: <pvdclipa3j7gjb13cjhuebhk2sg9d16atk@4ax.com>
> References: <rak4lipre2a8p4ifagehq2o894ebaakok3@4ax.com> <dfb44dbe-dc95-421f-a74d-e4f88e7ef6a5n@googlegroups.com> <u5n4li11gpbgskqobfr6vpm2hl2jmc2s5n@4ax.com> <67a5b770-9808-45ba-95d1-4410d6a0f706n@googlegroups.com> <6ea5li9jd5v2klac279m4499ocbrfh304t@4ax.com> <uivflg$16958$1@dont-email.me> <u937lipvrvsfuhue2lr5h48558spk4o3v5@4ax.com> <dd5a55aa-050a-4664-a19b-56bd2149f477n@googlegroups.com> <qk8ali56addu9bna1iv8hcscb4nou24pii@4ax.com> <uj4tmr$284bt$1@dont-email.me>
> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Lines: 33
> X-Trace: sv3-59AWMKgejZpE1TNkWSJCmudwdE5VzSJiHonigfEqbL9bet0h7VmHJ/nHmg5Rlh1Ry8yqWwGi8uJTqyL!1u6uBKT9KN+2PrrDjZcQlYq/xsmBzmd2uTetW++j+TuhusYMIqNXiFhtT0dTueSum77BArvaJsun!8bPDNw==
> X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
> X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
> X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
> X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
> X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
> Bytes: 2728
> X-Received-Bytes: 2866

The arsehole John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:01:26 +0000
> From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: moon race
> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:00:58 -0800
> Organization: Highland Tech
> Reply-To: xx@yy.com
> Message-ID: <1secli1v0ieq3r5ggru2nccf4r2pqohisf@4ax.com>
> References: <rak4lipre2a8p4ifagehq2o894ebaakok3@4ax.com> <dfb44dbe-dc95-421f-a74d-e4f88e7ef6a5n@googlegroups.com> <u5n4li11gpbgskqobfr6vpm2hl2jmc2s5n@4ax.com> <uiv20u$1g4i2$1@solani.org> <nh47li5varc5qv835u57jt3bgr0fgu7l7s@4ax.com> <uj1n87$1hgrs$1@solani.org> <0hp9li5qvuutioq03li9d7c78licq4phl8@4ax.com> <uj4be5$1im7p$1@solani.org>
> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Lines: 101
> X-Trace: sv3-o6lsNmJYofIOsmrU4qDFnjQa5FSJ9w92sFDQ0gnZwVVNOroMSBj8jPteBGx6lPBnri0mrzMmkXfFf6/!11ow+v50v2k/ogCWDaQ2jq9hkXKUWGqetHua2he0LpQ2oRYEAMg2vnasUITLC3ImKQK4CjY1UT+o!Bx4XDQ==
> X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
> X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
> X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
> X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
> X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
> X-Received-Bytes: 5677