moon race

The arsehole john larkin <jl@650pot.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

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> From: john larkin <jl@650pot.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: moon race
> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 10:57:03 -0800
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On Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 2:29:10 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 09:46:24 +0000, Martin Brown 
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: 
> 
> >On 13/11/2023 22:58, john larkin wrote: 
> >> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 10:09:37 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs 
> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> 
> >>> On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 12:31:49?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote: 
> >>>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:15:48 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs 
> >>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>>>> On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 11:45:05?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote: 
> >>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/concerns-growing-over-the-new-moon-space-race-between-china-and-the-us/ar-AA1jQ6iU 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> This makes no sense to me. Who cares if China or India waste a 
> >>>>>> trillion dollars "establishing norms" on the moon? How many kids are 
> >>>>>> going hungry to bring back more boring moon dirt? 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> And "space" is pretty big. Nobody is going to dominate space. 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> It's 21st century circus for the fools...both of those places are in dire need of freeing up the geniuses distracted by that waste to work on more pressing down to Earth problems, like feeding themselves. 
> >>>> One argument is that spending resources on NASA equivalents bootstraps 
> >>>> technology in a poor country. I think they have that backwards. 
> >>> 
> >>> They're missing the historical context of the western model which is industrial sector expertise bootstraps the big scientific programs, not the other way around. 
> > 
> >Not true. Science discovers things and industry eventually exploits 
> >them. It is sometimes the case that to solve a scientific problem new 
> >kit is developed by manufacturers but most of the time academic 
> >researchers budgets are so low that they make do with what they can get 
> >cheaply plus a lot of time and graduate students working for peanuts. 
> >> 
> >> Yes, science usually follows invention. 
> > 
> >Nonsense. Science invents and discovers new things that have no apparent 
> >usefulness at the time of their discovery. It is usually a few decades 
> >before industry even gets remotely interested in such breakthroughs. 
> >
> People built structures and water systems before there was any 
> corresponding science. Basic concepts of sanitation and medical 
> hygiene preceded knowledge of bactria and viruses. We had eyeglasses 
> and telescopes before there was any theory of optics. Franklin and Ohm 
> and Edison and DeForest invented electronics before anyone understood 
> the physics. Steam engines inspired thermodynamics, not the reverse. 
> Chemistry and metallurgy happened before there were chemists and 
> metallurgists. And there are many more examples where tinkerers 
> discover and use causalities and scientists follow up with theory. 

It's painfully ad hoc process,  and has a lot of false starts.

> It's hard to think of a case where science preceded invention,  especially pre-1900. Or even now. The laser is a notable exception. 

John Larkin doesn't know much, which means that he finds it hard to find examples. Mu own father's 25 patents were solidly based on existing science.

> E=mc^2 was vastly before its time, but fission would have been  discovered anyhow.

 E=mc^2 was exploited to explain the mass defect, when technology less us atomic masses accurately enough to let us realise that it existed, but fission itself grew out of work on radioactive decay, and was rather unexpected outcome

> Stimulated emission was brilliant, even though  Einstein thought the laser was impossible. That's a fascinating case  where a scientist invented a concept, the inventor and the science  establishment declared that it was useless, and an experimenter proved  them wrong. 

Einstein didn't have any problem with stimulated emission but he didn't see how you could set up a population inversion.

> Einstein went into the refrigerator businness, but it was a flop.

Not exactly. He invented a novel form of refrigerator and sold the patent to Electrolux. Nobody build any of them for years, but it has specialised applications

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_refrigerator

> >Concrete example Rutherford worked on radioactivity because he was advised by his supervisor that there was no real future in Hertzian waves as they would never amount to anything very much. In both instances it was about 4 decades before they really took off big time. He is much less well known for his work on radio waves.

> Radioactivity was observed and used before there was any corresponding science.
> > 
> >Same with the invention of the laser which initially required an insane configuration of very expensive perfect ruby crystal with a custom made flash gun wrapped around it. What earthly use would that ever be? 

The maser preceded the laser.

> >Now we are surrounded by kit that relies on laser light to function. Townes invented the maser first, and was almost de-funded because  everyone from Einstein down knew that themodynamics forbids net gain from stimulated emission.

Actually, the problem was setting up the population inversion required to offer net gain. It's a counter-intuitive idea and John Larkin still hasn't grasped it.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 11/14/2023 2:46 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> Nonsense. Science invents and discovers new things that have no apparent 
> usefulness at the time of their discovery. It is usually a few decades before 
> industry even gets remotely interested in such breakthroughs.

Case in point:  AI.  The technologies that are being touted, today,
were taught to us 40+ years ago.  But, the rest of the computing world
was too big (mainframes and some minis) and too slow to make use of
any of this in anything more than a classroom setting.

Now, I can put more horsepower in an earbud than was available to
support an entire class of students!  Suddenly, the technology
and industry jump on the bandwagon...

> Concrete example Rutherford worked on radioactivity because he was advised by 
> his supervisor that there was no real future in Hertzian waves as they would 
> never amount to anything very much. In both instances it was about 4 decades 
> before they really took off big time. He is much less well known for his work 
> on radio waves.

Industry is often naive in assessing applications.  Didn't DEC think
the market for "computers" was (initially) in the single digits?

> Same with the invention of the laser which initially required an insane 
> configuration of very expensive perfect ruby crystal with a custom made flash 
> gun wrapped around it. What earthly use would that ever be?

We used to build multi-decade counters out of discretes...
large stacks of perf-board just to add a few more bits
tied to Nixie displays.

"Why would anyone ever NEED these to fit on a fingernail?
You still have all the display stuff to deal with..."

> Now we are surrounded by kit that relies on laser light to function.

And MCUs/SoCs to perform functions that would previously have been
done with discrete logic/analog functions.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_MC14500B>

On a sunny day (Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:34:38 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <nh47li5varc5qv835u57jt3bgr0fgu7l7s@4ax.com>:

>On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 05:53:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:31:08 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <u5n4li11gpbgskqobfr6vpm2hl2jmc2s5n@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:15:48 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>><bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 11:45:05?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/concerns-growing-over-the-new-moon-space-race-between-china-and-the-us/ar-AA1jQ6iU 
>>>>> 
>>>>> This makes no sense to me. Who cares if China or India waste a 
>>>>> trillion dollars "establishing norms" on the moon? How many kids are 
>>>>> going hungry to bring back more boring moon dirt? 
>>>>> 
>>>>> And "space" is pretty big. Nobody is going to dominate space.
>>>>
>>>>It's 21st century circus for the fools...both of those places are in dire need of freeing up the geniuses distracted by that
>>>>waste to work on more pressing down to Earth problems, like feeding themselves.
>>>
>>>One argument is that spending resources on NASA equivalents bootstraps
>>>technology in a poor country. I think they have that backwards.
>>>
>>>It's tragic how much North Korea spends on missiles and cannons and
>>>nukes.
>>
>>US is the poorest country on the planet, 
>
>That's silly. 
>
>>its debt is the biggest
>
>As a fraction of GDP, it's not. Look it up.
>
>>It sells weapons to its own people and others, payed for by that debt and their tax payers.
>>The people are poor, homelessness is extreme, people killing each other for automatic weans,
>>they designed things like COVID, many of their products suck
>>and are expensive,
>
>If you don't like american technology, don't use it.

Right
Chinese stuff is cheaper and works 99% of the time.

US men die 6 years before women, as life expectancy gap widens:
 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231114215650.htm

The idiot Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

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The idiot Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: moon race
> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 06:08:06 GMT
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The arsehole Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: moon race
> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 20:30:08 -0700
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On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 06:08:06 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:34:38 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <nh47li5varc5qv835u57jt3bgr0fgu7l7s@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 05:53:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:31:08 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <u5n4li11gpbgskqobfr6vpm2hl2jmc2s5n@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:15:48 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>>><bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 11:45:05?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/concerns-growing-over-the-new-moon-space-race-between-china-and-the-us/ar-AA1jQ6iU 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This makes no sense to me. Who cares if China or India waste a 
>>>>>> trillion dollars "establishing norms" on the moon? How many kids are 
>>>>>> going hungry to bring back more boring moon dirt? 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And "space" is pretty big. Nobody is going to dominate space.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's 21st century circus for the fools...both of those places are in dire need of freeing up the geniuses distracted by that
>>>>>waste to work on more pressing down to Earth problems, like feeding themselves.
>>>>
>>>>One argument is that spending resources on NASA equivalents bootstraps
>>>>technology in a poor country. I think they have that backwards.
>>>>
>>>>It's tragic how much North Korea spends on missiles and cannons and
>>>>nukes.
>>>
>>>US is the poorest country on the planet, 
>>
>>That's silly. 
>>
>>>its debt is the biggest
>>
>>As a fraction of GDP, it's not. Look it up.
>>
>>>It sells weapons to its own people and others, payed for by that debt and their tax payers.
>>>The people are poor, homelessness is extreme, people killing each other for automatic weans,
>>>they designed things like COVID, many of their products suck
>>>and are expensive,
>>
>>If you don't like american technology, don't use it.
>
>Right
>Chinese stuff is cheaper and works 99% of the time.

So a board that uses 300 Chinese parts will work 5% of the time.

>
>US men die 6 years before women, as life expectancy gap widens:

> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231114215650.htm

Surfing and skydiving and mountain climbing and suntanning with babes
on the beach are dangerous.

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 7:29:10 AM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 09:46:24 +0000, Martin Brown 
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: 

> >Science invents and discovers new things that have no apparent 
> >usefulness at the time of their discovery. It is usually a few decades 
> >before industry even gets remotely interested in such breakthroughs. 


> People built structures and water systems before there was any 
> corresponding science.

That's not clear.   The "corresponding science" may just not have been
written down; language arts and writing are recent compared to
structures and water systems as we know them from archaeology.

> Basic concepts of sanitation and medical 
> hygiene preceded knowledge of bacteria and viruses. 

That just means we've got a few steps farther in our understanding
those things, not that 'science' wasn't present  in the early concepts.

> We had eyeglasses 
> and telescopes before there was any theory of optics. 

Huh?   "any theory" cannot have been absent for producing telescopes, though
the optical design of those early years may not have been the rich field of knowledge
that optics later became.

>Franklin and Ohm 
> and Edison and DeForest invented electronics before anyone understood 
> the physics. 

They were early researchers, in a sense; obviously "the physics" was what Franklin
and Ohm were researching.   They didn't  precede it, they led it.

>Steam engines inspired thermodynamics, not the reverse. 

Nonsense; thermodynamics was what the steam tables were all about,
the whole point  of science is to have a good grasp of reality even when
the apparatus isn't yet built.   You cannot call engines an inspiration of knowledge
and deny that knowledge inspires invention.

> It's hard to think of a case where science preceded invention,  ...

They both arise from confusion, which is apparently where John Larkin is dwelling.

The arsehole John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:

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> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 15:43:06 +0000
> From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: moon race
> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 07:42:39 -0800
> Organization: Highland Tech
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