Digital Calipers That Don't Drain the Battery

On 12/11/2022 8:49 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 12/11/2022 2:40 am, Ricky wrote:
>> I, like many others, have digital calipers that drain the battery 
>> while sitting, and have no on/off switch, so the battery must be 
>> removed when not being used.  I recall a conversation here some time 
>> ago about this and some had found different brands that worked better 
>> than others, in this regard.
>>
>> Anyone recall the names of the brands that don't drain the battery?
>>
> For the record, I got so tired of this problem that I bought a 
> non-electronic one. There's a slight learning curve, but they're very 
> easy to read to the nearest 0.1mm, and can do 0.02mm with a bit of effort.
> 
> Sylvia.

As an aside, I had a multi-meter whose auto-off feature turned out to be 
just disabling the display. It drew a milliamp when off, which doesn't 
take long to kill a small battery.

I eventually modified it to fix the problem.

Sylvia,

On 11/13/2022 7:21 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge even if 
> you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is not valid once 
> you start using the battery even once, the chemistry inside changes.

Yes, battery vendors can control the passivation layer to prolong shelf life
by reducing self-discharge rates.  Once a load is applied, the passivation
layer disappears and self-discharge rates climb.

For most applications, the downside of the passivation layer (i.e., a
delay in output voltage available on initial application of load) is
tolerable.  (the battery "looks" more exhausted than it really is
because of the increased resistance of this layer).

The layer can reform (once the load is completely removed) but not always with
the same effectiveness as from initial manufacture.  It's presence can
be thought of as a "switch" that remembers when it has been "activated"
(loaded).

I suspect process variation in the manufacture of the semiconductor/circuit
in question is also a big factor in battery life expectancy /in situ/.

On 11/13/2022 7:44 AM, legg wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 15:21:44 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
>> Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge
>> even if you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is
>> not valid once you start using the battery even once, the chemistry
>> inside changes.
> 
> That is NOT 'apparent'.
> 
> References in the literature, please.

First instance that I came across:

"A little known chemical reaction helps extend battery life"

<https://www.powerelectronictips.com/long-life-batteries-harness-the-passivation-effect-faq/>

..

"Passivation is affected by factors such as the current capacity of the cell,
length of storage, storage temperature, discharge temperature, and prior
discharge conditions; removing the load from a partially discharged cell can

----------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

impact passivation relatively more than in a new cell. Passivation is essential
for reducing self-discharge, but too much of it can also restrict energy flow

----^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

when it is needed most. Reducing the level of passivation permits greater 
energy flow, but the trade-off is a higher self-discharge rate and shorter 
operating life."

[N.B. Passivation varies with battery chemistry]

On 11/13/2022 9:07 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> References in the literature, please.
> 
> First instance that I came across:

And another:

<https://www.creasefield.co.uk/technology/passivation-in-lithium-batteries/>

"Due to the formation of a high resistance LiCl film on the surface of the
anode within dormant Passivated Lithium cells , self-discharge rates are very 
low. Without a passivation layer cells of this chemistry could not be stored
and would not exist, the Lithium would discharge and degrade very rapidly. The
typical rated shelf life of a Lithium Thionyl Chloride Primary battery is over
10 years, this is primarily due to the capability of the Passivation layer to
protect the cell from high self-discharge rates and allow a &lsquo;dormant&rsquo; state to
exist."

[Feel free to google/DDG for other references]

On 2022-11-14 00:23, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 23:10:50 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 2022-11-13 15:44, legg wrote:
>>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 15:21:44 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>> Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge
>>>> even if you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is
>>>> not valid once you start using the battery even once, the chemistry
>>>> inside changes.
>>>
>>> That is NOT 'apparent'.
>>>
>>> References in the literature, please.
>>
>> I saw somewhere someone that had bought some batteries, and claimed they
>> did not last as long (years) as the label said they would, that they
>> leaked. The manufacturer (Duracell or Energizer) said that as the
>> batteries had been used for a short time (a day?), the warranty was
>> void, that the chemical processes had started.
> 
> This would be the Duracell Copper-Top batteries.  The problem was that
> they leaked and ruined expensive items, not just flashlights, causing
> their sales to crater when word got around.  Pretty soon they came out
> with a "premium" version guaranteed for ten years, now 12 yeses, while
> "in storage".  Probably is the original design with new marketing.

You might search for duration guaranteed "in storage" versus maximum "in 
use" duration (not minimum) or some equivalent wording.

> 
> In any event, the bit about the chemical reaction being started by
> first use is nonsense.  Batteries wear out just sitting there, some
> faster than others.
> 
> The bit about the warrantee is a legal issue, not a technical or
> engineering issue.  The problem is that Duracell cannot know what the
> actual load will be (or was) after installation in a user-provided
> device, so there is no way to guarantee that aside from the guaranteed
> capacity, to prevent warrantee abuse.
> 
> Joe Gwinn

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-11-14 01:30, Ricky wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 6:12:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:


>> I know from personal experience that white or no name batteries tend to
>> leak earlier, before they are really spent, when used in things like
>> clocks or tv remotes.
> 
> No name, like Kirkland or Sunbeam or other dollar store brands? 

But local names, like Mercadona or Carrefour.

> My experience has been just the opposite.  Duracell, Rayovac and Kirkland have all leaked for me, prior to the expiration date, including in the original package in the case of the Kirkland batteries.  I've used Sunbeam and other "no name" brands from dollar stores and never had one leak.  I keep them in my computer bag as backup batteries for the mice.
> 
> Duracell honored their warranty, sending me a $100 check for equipment damaged by the corrosion.  Rayovac wanted me to send them the equipment at my expense.  Costco all but laughed at me.  So much for their "forever" warranty.
> 
> I don't know if Sunbeams warranty is good or not.  Never had to find out. Isn't that the best warranty?
> 

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-11-14 04:06, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/13/2022 7:21 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge 
>> even if you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is 
>> not valid once you start using the battery even once, the chemistry 
>> inside changes.
> 
> Yes, battery vendors can control the passivation layer to prolong shelf 
> life
> by reducing self-discharge rates.  Once a load is applied, the passivation
> layer disappears and self-discharge rates climb.
> 
> For most applications, the downside of the passivation layer (i.e., a
> delay in output voltage available on initial application of load) is
> tolerable.  (the battery "looks" more exhausted than it really is
> because of the increased resistance of this layer).
> 
> The layer can reform (once the load is completely removed) but not 
> always with
> the same effectiveness as from initial manufacture.  It's presence can
> be thought of as a "switch" that remembers when it has been "activated"
> (loaded).
> 
> I suspect process variation in the manufacture of the semiconductor/circuit
> in question is also a big factor in battery life expectancy /in situ/.
> 

Interesting. This is much more detailed that what I read long ago, they 
did not explain the chemistry at all.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

I bought a 4" caliper from iGaging on Amazon.  It arrived the other day and seems to work fine.  I hope the battery holds up.  The electronics part is quite a bit larger than on the other unit I have that runs the battery down.  Changing the position of the slider when the unit is off, still registers the reading when you turn it on.  So it's never totally off.  

It also has both a "absolute" zero and an "origin" button, which I haven't figured out yet.  The instruction sheet tells you how to change the mode, but not what it does.  As far as I can tell, it's just another way to set a zero.  I guess it's just a temporary zero, with the original zero being restored when you turn off the mode or the device.  I expect the recessed origin button is the master zero.  

This one also has a bluetooth connection, I have not tried out yet. 

-- 

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:44:55 PM UTC, Ricky wrote:
> I bought a 4" caliper from iGaging on Amazon. It arrived the other day and seems to work fine. I hope the battery holds up. The electronics part is quite a bit larger than on the other unit I have that runs the battery down. Changing the position of the slider when the unit is off, still registers the reading when you turn it on. So it's never totally off. 
> 
> It also has both a "absolute" zero and an "origin" button, which I haven't figured out yet. The instruction sheet tells you how to change the mode, but not what it does. As far as I can tell, it's just another way to set a zero. I guess it's just a temporary zero, with the original zero being restored when you turn off the mode or the device. I expect the recessed origin button is the master zero. 
> 
> This one also has a bluetooth connection, I have not tried out yet. 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Rick C. 
> 
> --+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
> --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Cool! I was interested too, especially in a model with data-out.
(RS-232 is long gone; hello Bluetooth)
I looked on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/iGaging-Electronic-Absolute-Bluetooth-Connectivity/dp/B0714JQG6L
Where is the "Send" (via Bluetooth) function?
Could the button labeled "Origin" actually be the "Send"?
Put it thru some paces, let us know how it goes!
-RS

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:52:08 PM UTC-5, Rich S wrote:
> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:44:55 PM UTC, Ricky wrote: 
> > I bought a 4" caliper from iGaging on Amazon. It arrived the other day and seems to work fine. I hope the battery holds up. The electronics part is quite a bit larger than on the other unit I have that runs the battery down. Changing the position of the slider when the unit is off, still registers the reading when you turn it on. So it's never totally off. 
> > 
> > It also has both a "absolute" zero and an "origin" button, which I haven't figured out yet. The instruction sheet tells you how to change the mode, but not what it does. As far as I can tell, it's just another way to set a zero. I guess it's just a temporary zero, with the original zero being restored when you turn off the mode or the device. I expect the recessed origin button is the master zero. 
> > 
> > This one also has a bluetooth connection, I have not tried out yet. 
> 
> Cool! I was interested too, especially in a model with data-out. 
> (RS-232 is long gone; hello Bluetooth) 
> I looked on Amazon 
> https://www.amazon.com/iGaging-Electronic-Absolute-Bluetooth-Connectivity/dp/B0714JQG6L 
> Where is the "Send" (via Bluetooth) function? 
> Could the button labeled "Origin" actually be the "Send"? 
> Put it thru some paces, let us know how it goes! 

As is usual, Bluetooth is both easy to connect and difficult to connect.  When it works the first time, it's easy.  When it doesn't, it's hard.  lol 

I think my problem was it first connected to my phone where I was able to add measurements to text messages.  The caliper shows up as a keyboard and does not interfere with the use of the other keyboards.  

When I tried to connect it to my laptop, it was still connected to the phone.  But even once I figured out how to prevent that, it was a bit tricky with the laptop.  As far as I could tell, I just had to wait for it to get its shit together and show up as "keyboard" rather than the other names it produced.  Most likely those names were from the defaults in the Bluetooth chip or something similar.  

Anyway, once it was connected to the laptop, I could enter values in a spreadsheet, with a LF at the end, so the cell was closed and it moved on to the next cell (the default behavior set in the spreadsheet for the enter key).  It includes no units, which I suppose is the best default.  

This thing not only has metric and inches, but also fractional inches.  I recall reading a review on one of the iGaging calipers where the guy complained that in fraction mode, it would only count in 1/128ths of an inch (other than the integer inches, of course).  This one simplifies the fraction to remove common divisors.  So it will display 1-1/8 inches.  In "fraction" mode, the wireless connection still gives decimal fractions to the full 3-1/2 digits past the decimal point, e.g. 1.1255.  

I don't know how often I will use the Bluetooth feature.  I think a similar iGaging caliper without the Bluetooth feature was $25, or maybe it was $35, I forget.  This one was $50, in fact, the same one you linked to.  Be aware it is 4 inches, not the typical 6 inches.   In fact, the box says 6 inches and I first thought they had shipped the wrong one, lol.  But they are just using the same boxes for both sizes and I suppose one of the labels has the part number correct.  Yes, I see a bar code with the 4 inch part number.  Then there's a second bar code label from Anytime Tools with their part number.  

The instruction sheet is very hard to read and can be important to understanding the controls if you are easily confused, like me!  Here is a PDF file I found that was not obvious from the iGaging web site. 

https://manuals.plus/m/838c3585e5aa241fa738e96815c5d2276cfdfb7fe45a1e129334fb662513527b_optim.pdf

One thing they note is to not use the Bluetooth for 10 seconds, "It is recommended not to turn on or use the data output option within the first 10 seconds of usage."  This is a bit cryptic, but I guess they are just letting the processor initialize or something.  I assume they mean after turning on, don't use the data button, or maybe after making the Bluetooth connection... I'm not sure, but I think that was also part of my trouble getting it to work. 

I see the blue led blinking once in a while, which seems to indicate a Bluetooth connection.  I see that even after turning off the unit, which I thought would reset the link... maybe not.  A long press of the data button (the unlabeled button on the top) seems to turn off the Bluetooth.  No, it flashed five times, but it returns to blinking.  Maybe it will just have to time out (5 minutes of "none" use).  Well, after almost 10 minutes, it shows no sign of the Bluetooth timing out.   I've got a spare battery or ten (CR2032, so lots around), I guess I'll try giving it overnight. 

If it doesn't eat batteries, I think I'll be very happy with this unit. 

-- 

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209