Digital Calipers That Don't Drain the Battery

On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 15:21:44 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

<snip>
>Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge 
>even if you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is 
>not valid once you start using the battery even once, the chemistry 
>inside changes.

That is NOT 'apparent'.

References in the literature, please.

RL

søndag den 13. november 2022 kl. 02.47.46 UTC+1 skrev Ricky:
> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:48:21 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > søndag den 13. november 2022 kl. 00.37.37 UTC+1 skrev Ricky: 
> > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 3:22:03 PM UTC-4, Bertrand Sindri wrote: 
> > > > Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 1:02:46 PM UTC-4, legg wrote: 
> > > > >> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 07:40:06 -0800 (PST), Ricky 
> > > > >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > > > >> > I, like many others, have digital calipers that drain the battery 
> > > > >> > while sitting, and have no on/off switch, so the battery must be 
> > > > >> > removed when not being used. I recall a conversation here some 
> > > > >> > time ago about this and some had found different brands that 
> > > > >> > worked better than others, in this regard. 
> > > > >> > 
> > > > >> >Anyone recall the names of the brands that don't drain the battery? 
> > > > 
> > > > >> Two sets here in two tool boxes. I keep a spare battery in their 
> > > > >> cases - expect to have to change at least annually. If you only 
> > > > >> pick them up once, every year or two, then dead batteries will be 
> > > > >> no surprise. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Think about that for a minute. If I can't expect a battery in an 
> > > > > unused device to last a year sitting in the case, why would I expect 
> > > > > an extra battery to be good? 
> > > > A disconnected battery will last significantly longer than one that is 
> > > > being actively drained because the 'off' button was interpreted by the 
> > > > Chinese engineer as "turn off the display" instead of as "use as little 
> > > > quiescent current as possible". 
> > > That doesn't take a year, and I have no use for such a device. That's my point. I'm looking for a device that won't drain the battery, because it actually turns off. 
> > a genuine Mitutoyo doesn't really turn off it doesn't need to, it uses so little current it doesn't matter, something like less than a 1 uA 
> > it'll last years on a battery
> I don't know why you say it doesn't turn off. The oscillator stops running, I'm sure. The LCD is not being driven. The sensors are not being checked. In short, every part of the design is not functioning, and being CMOS, draws infinitely little power. Or, they may have a p-fet in series with the power, either internal to the chip, or external to the chip. None of this matters, because they have effectively stopped the power drain by actually ceasing to operate. 
> 
> Do you have any info on the actual design? 

it may be "off" but it is still "on" enough to maintain the origin, if you replace the battery you have to set the origin

https://youtu.be/KG6I2gNGVwM

søndag den 13. november 2022 kl. 02.47.46 UTC+1 skrev Ricky:
> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:48:21 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > søndag den 13. november 2022 kl. 00.37.37 UTC+1 skrev Ricky: 
> > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 3:22:03 PM UTC-4, Bertrand Sindri wrote: 
> > > > Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 1:02:46 PM UTC-4, legg wrote: 
> > > > >> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 07:40:06 -0800 (PST), Ricky 
> > > > >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > > > >> > I, like many others, have digital calipers that drain the battery 
> > > > >> > while sitting, and have no on/off switch, so the battery must be 
> > > > >> > removed when not being used. I recall a conversation here some 
> > > > >> > time ago about this and some had found different brands that 
> > > > >> > worked better than others, in this regard. 
> > > > >> > 
> > > > >> >Anyone recall the names of the brands that don't drain the battery? 
> > > > 
> > > > >> Two sets here in two tool boxes. I keep a spare battery in their 
> > > > >> cases - expect to have to change at least annually. If you only 
> > > > >> pick them up once, every year or two, then dead batteries will be 
> > > > >> no surprise. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Think about that for a minute. If I can't expect a battery in an 
> > > > > unused device to last a year sitting in the case, why would I expect 
> > > > > an extra battery to be good? 
> > > > A disconnected battery will last significantly longer than one that is 
> > > > being actively drained because the 'off' button was interpreted by the 
> > > > Chinese engineer as "turn off the display" instead of as "use as little 
> > > > quiescent current as possible". 
> > > That doesn't take a year, and I have no use for such a device. That's my point. I'm looking for a device that won't drain the battery, because it actually turns off. 
> > a genuine Mitutoyo doesn't really turn off it doesn't need to, it uses so little current it doesn't matter, something like less than a 1 uA 
> > it'll last years on a battery
> I don't know why you say it doesn't turn off. The oscillator stops running, I'm sure. The LCD is not being driven. The sensors are not being checked. In short, every part of the design is not functioning, and being CMOS, draws infinitely little power. Or, they may have a p-fet in series with the power, either internal to the chip, or external to the chip. None of this matters, because they have effectively stopped the power drain by actually ceasing to operate. 
> 
> Do you have any info on the actual design? 
> 

it may be "off" but it is still "on" enough to maintain the origin, if you replace the battery you have to set the origin 

https://youtu.be/KG6I2gNGVwM?t=1693

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 6:43:57 AM UTC-8, legg wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 15:21:44 +0100, "Carlos E.R." 
> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote: 
> 
> <snip>
> >Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge 
> >even if you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is 
> >not valid once you start using the battery even once, the chemistry 
> >inside changes.
> That is NOT 'apparent'. 
> 
> References in the literature, please. 

This does happen (battery manufacturers agree) in zinc-air batteries, which are
shipped with a sticker blocking air entry.    The warranty on a battery is only for
its storage discharge rate (and is rather on the conservative side, I've actually
measured useful charge in batteries aged 30 years).

Battery manufacturers' literature on actual battery amp-hour capacity has, when I've
checked, been accurate.

On 2022-11-13 15:44, legg wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 15:21:44 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
>> Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge
>> even if you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is
>> not valid once you start using the battery even once, the chemistry
>> inside changes.
> 
> That is NOT 'apparent'.
> 
> References in the literature, please.

I saw somewhere someone that had bought some batteries, and claimed they 
did not last as long (years) as the label said they would, that they 
leaked. The manufacturer (Duracell or Energizer) said that as the 
batteries had been used for a short time (a day?), the warranty was 
void, that the chemical processes had started.

Maybe I saw this on Amazon. Maybe it was a legal claim and that was the 
conclusion. Maybe I read it on Usenet.

If you want an exact cite, you will have to google or keep an eye for 
it. I saw it long ago and of course I don't remember exactly where nor 
did I keep the link, sorry.

If you have a channel to ask a manufacturer to confirm or deny, that 
would be wonderful.


Searching now, I found a site that says that there are batteries 
designed for low drain devices, which would be the case with those calipers.

<https://batteryspecialists.com.au/blogs/news/the-complete-guide-to-aaa-batteries>

I know from personal experience that white or no name batteries tend to 
leak earlier, before they are really spent, when used in things like 
clocks or tv remotes.




-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 23:10:50 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2022-11-13 15:44, legg wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 15:21:44 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>> <snip>
>>> Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge
>>> even if you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is
>>> not valid once you start using the battery even once, the chemistry
>>> inside changes.
>> 
>> That is NOT 'apparent'.
>> 
>> References in the literature, please.
>
>I saw somewhere someone that had bought some batteries, and claimed they 
>did not last as long (years) as the label said they would, that they 
>leaked. The manufacturer (Duracell or Energizer) said that as the 
>batteries had been used for a short time (a day?), the warranty was 
>void, that the chemical processes had started.

This would be the Duracell Copper-Top batteries.  The problem was that
they leaked and ruined expensive items, not just flashlights, causing
their sales to crater when word got around.  Pretty soon they came out
with a "premium" version guaranteed for ten years, now 12 yeses, while
"in storage".  Probably is the original design with new marketing.

In any event, the bit about the chemical reaction being started by
first use is nonsense.  Batteries wear out just sitting there, some
faster than others.

The bit about the warrantee is a legal issue, not a technical or
engineering issue.  The problem is that Duracell cannot know what the
actual load will be (or was) after installation in a user-provided
device, so there is no way to guarantee that aside from the guaranteed
capacity, to prevent warrantee abuse.

Joe Gwinn

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 9:29:57 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 11/11/2022 21:42, Ricky wrote: 
> > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:03:14 PM UTC-4, Martin Brown 
> > wrote:
> >> On 11/11/2022 15:40, Ricky wrote: 
> >>> I, like many others, have digital calipers that drain the battery 
> >>> while sitting, and have no on/off switch, so the battery must be 
> >>> removed when not being used. I recall a conversation here some 
> >>> time ago about this and some had found different brands that 
> >>> worked better than others, in this regard. 
> >>> 
> >>> Anyone recall the names of the brands that don't drain the 
> >>> battery?
> >> The ones with an on/off switch! Actually mine just has an on switch 
> >> and times out after a few minutes. 
> > 
> > I suppose I was not clear as to my meaning by "on/off" switch. They 
> > typically have a push button to turn on. I've never seen one with a 
> > mechanical switch to directly disconnect the battery. Turning them 
> > off by the push button seems to only mute the display.
> Mine seem to last a year or so. LCD display when done in bare metal 
> takes so little power that muting the display is pointless. 
> 
> I don't see battery life as an issue. YMMV 

I'm happy for you, mazel tov.  

-- 

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 10:24:13 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-11-12 18:36, Ricky wrote: 
> > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 1:02:46 PM UTC-4, legg wrote: 
> >> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 07:40:06 -0800 (PST), Ricky 
> >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>> I, like many others, have digital calipers that drain the battery while sitting, and have no on/off switch, so the battery must be removed when not being used. I recall a conversation here some time ago about this and some had found different brands that worked better than others, in this regard. 
> >>> 
> >>> Anyone recall the names of the brands that don't drain the battery? 
> >> Two sets here in two tool boxes. I keep a spare battery in their 
> >> cases - expect to have to change at least annually. If you only 
> >> pick them up once, every year or two, then dead batteries will be 
> >> no surprise. 
> > 
> > Think about that for a minute. If I can't expect a battery in an unused device to last a year sitting in the case, why would I expect an extra battery to be good? This is clearly bad product design. End of story. 
> >
> Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge 
> even if you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is 
> not valid once you start using the battery even once, the chemistry 
> inside changes. 

Wow!  Chemistry with a memory.  I wonder how they test them in the factory? 

-- 

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 4:14:42 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 6:43:57 AM UTC-8, legg wrote: 
> > On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 15:21:44 +0100, "Carlos E.R." 
> > <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote: 
> > 
> > <snip> 
> > >Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge 
> > >even if you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is 
> > >not valid once you start using the battery even once, the chemistry 
> > >inside changes. 
> > That is NOT 'apparent'. 
> > 
> > References in the literature, please.
> This does happen (battery manufacturers agree) in zinc-air batteries, which are 
> shipped with a sticker blocking air entry. The warranty on a battery is only for 
> its storage discharge rate (and is rather on the conservative side, I've actually 
> measured useful charge in batteries aged 30 years). 

That's not about "using" them.  It's about unsealing them.  Sure, lots of things keep very well while sealed up, then have a relatively shorter life afterwards. 

-- 

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 6:12:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-11-13 15:44, legg wrote: 
> > On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 15:21:44 +0100, "Carlos E.R." 
> > <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote: 
> > 
> > <snip> 
> >> Apparently, once a battery is "started" it starts slowly losing charge 
> >> even if you put it again in a box, disconnected. The warranty date is 
> >> not valid once you start using the battery even once, the chemistry 
> >> inside changes. 
> > 
> > That is NOT 'apparent'. 
> > 
> > References in the literature, please.
> I saw somewhere someone that had bought some batteries, and claimed they 
> did not last as long (years) as the label said they would, that they 
> leaked. The manufacturer (Duracell or Energizer) said that as the 
> batteries had been used for a short time (a day?), the warranty was 
> void, that the chemical processes had started. 
> 
> Maybe I saw this on Amazon. Maybe it was a legal claim and that was the 
> conclusion. Maybe I read it on Usenet. 
> 
> If you want an exact cite, you will have to google or keep an eye for 
> it. I saw it long ago and of course I don't remember exactly where nor 
> did I keep the link, sorry. 
> 
> If you have a channel to ask a manufacturer to confirm or deny, that 
> would be wonderful. 
> 
> 
> Searching now, I found a site that says that there are batteries 
> designed for low drain devices, which would be the case with those calipers. 
> 
> <https://batteryspecialists.com.au/blogs/news/the-complete-guide-to-aaa-batteries> 
> 
> I know from personal experience that white or no name batteries tend to 
> leak earlier, before they are really spent, when used in things like 
> clocks or tv remotes. 

No name, like Kirkland or Sunbeam or other dollar store brands?  My experience has been just the opposite.  Duracell, Rayovac and Kirkland have all leaked for me, prior to the expiration date, including in the original package in the case of the Kirkland batteries.  I've used Sunbeam and other "no name" brands from dollar stores and never had one leak.  I keep them in my computer bag as backup batteries for the mice.  

Duracell honored their warranty, sending me a $100 check for equipment damaged by the corrosion.  Rayovac wanted me to send them the equipment at my expense.  Costco all but laughed at me.  So much for their "forever" warranty. 

I don't know if Sunbeams warranty is good or not.  Never had to find out. Isn't that the best warranty? 

-- 

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209