Hardware Based IP Protection

onsdag den 28. september 2022 kl. 22.37.15 UTC+2 skrev a a:
> On Wednesday, 28 September 2022 at 20:35:24 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > onsdag den 28. september 2022 kl. 19.47.52 UTC+2 skrev a a: 
> > > On Wednesday, 28 September 2022 at 17:39:37 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > > > onsdag den 28. september 2022 kl. 14.01.10 UTC+2 skrev a a: 
> > > > > On Monday, 26 September 2022 at 22:09:16 UTC+2, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > A customer wants me to redesign a board to eliminate the production bottlenecks. They also want all IP so they can make the boards themselves if my company is unable to. I'm fine with that, but I'd like to have some means of assurance they won't make boards without my royalty being respected. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The board has an FPGA which contains the "magic", an analog path, and a digital path to the outside world. The digital path needs a 3.3V/5V interface. There are two opamps that serve as filters with gain. There is a need for several (3-4) LDOs. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I've found a couple of chips from Greenpaks that could help here. One is a "Programmable Mixed-Signal Matrix" which could replace the opamps and provide a configurable gain using the programmable "rheostat". Another has four LDOs which would be useful and *might* be able to serve as the level shifter. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I'm waiting to hear back from someone from Renesas, who can discuss this with me, or a disti FAE. There are a lot of questions about how to turn these into a custom part number to meet my needs. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Anyone have experience with using these in production? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -- 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Rick C. 
> > > > > > 
> > > --It's pretty easy. 
> > > --Just implement individual Activation Code for every board, to be generated by your server to get count of boards --manufactured and activated. 
> > > ---when say it is easy you obviously never did anything like it.... 
> > > > they have the source so they can just remove any "activation" checks 
> > > in theory you are right but in practice, not exactly. 
> > > Implementing private - public key pair is easy 
> > > implementing one time activation codes is easy 
> > > implementing one-way input bus only hardware is easy 
> > and neither of those does anything because they have the source and can easily remove any checks 
> > > .../ .... / ... 
> > > learn how Speedport Hybrid LTE DSL router by Deutsche Telekom is hard/software locked to local APN of the customer 
> > customers don't have the source so they can't remove the lock and it is permanently connected to the internet so can be remotely disabled
> they can try to remove checks if checks are not part of the contract 
> but if checks are part of the contracts and you attach 3G/4G/LTE modem to communicate with a server at preset intervals, you get modem identified by number, by sim card, by "from" field in sms message 
> easy cake

and totally irrelevant to the topic

On 28/9/22 23:12, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 1:01 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> 
> [attrs elided]
> 
>>> If you want to ensure 'N' is an accurate assessment of their
>>> "usage of your design" (royalty), then you need to be a gatekeeper
>>> for something that is related to N, in some way.
>>
>> One of the simple ways is a single unreadable programmable component 
>> that you retain control of and supply one per unit made. Once you 
>> share your secrets with a third party they can clone the thing as they 
>> wish.
> 
> Yes.  Dallas (?) made some "unique 1-wire coins" that had individual codes
> that you could recognize in software -- with a suitable polynomial.  This
> allowed you to ship a coin as an activation token for your product.  Or,
> as a REactivation token (e.g., for timed licensing)

...

> But, if they can read the source code, then they can *see* what you are 
> doing.
> if they want to eliminate that (artificial) dependency ("to cheat you"), 
> they
> can easily do so.

Exactly my original point - unless the secured device implements some 
critical function, the design can be changed to eliminate the need for it.

Ricky is still approaching this as an engineer, not a business-man.
Don and I have both been telling him that you can really only approach 
this problem with trust and contracts, not hardware. Unless he makes all 
the hardware himself.

CH

On 28/9/22 21:49, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 3:00 AM, bitrex wrote:
>> On 9/27/2022 1:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>> If you must share your IP -- *all* of your IP -- then there's little
>>> you can really do.  I've seen customers "steal" fully disclosed
>>> designs (industrial applications) without batting an eyelash -- pay
>>> for system #1 and reproduce it, exactly, multiple times thereafter
>>> (saving a few hundred kilobucks each time).
>>
>> Right. If the customer wants *all* your IP then it seems better to 
>> charge appropriately up-front than to worry about royalties.
> 
> There are some markets where this isn't possible; where you *must*
> disclose a design in its entirety (e.g., regulated industries).
> Or, where some assurances must exist of continued availability
> of the design documents even in the face of your (or your company's)
> demise.


We have handled that using Escrow services. Simply archive a virtual 
machine with all the design files and lock it in the safe at an escrow 
agency, and write the appropriate agreement dictating under what 
conditions they can open the safe and to whom they should give a copy of 
the contents.


> But, usually, the customers there aren't interested in going into
> the equipment business against you.  Rather, their interests lie
> elsewhere... USING your equipment to achieve some other goal
> in which they are expert.

Exactly right. Consider their motivational model, and write suitable 
contracts. Locked hardware is just an invitation for them to break it.

On Wednesday, 28 September 2022 at 22:48:32 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> onsdag den 28. september 2022 kl. 22.37.15 UTC+2 skrev a a: 
> > On Wednesday, 28 September 2022 at 20:35:24 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > > onsdag den 28. september 2022 kl. 19.47.52 UTC+2 skrev a a: 
> > > > On Wednesday, 28 September 2022 at 17:39:37 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > > > > onsdag den 28. september 2022 kl. 14.01.10 UTC+2 skrev a a: 
> > > > > > On Monday, 26 September 2022 at 22:09:16 UTC+2, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > A customer wants me to redesign a board to eliminate the production bottlenecks. They also want all IP so they can make the boards themselves if my company is unable to. I'm fine with that, but I'd like to have some means of assurance they won't make boards without my royalty being respected. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The board has an FPGA which contains the "magic", an analog path, and a digital path to the outside world. The digital path needs a 3.3V/5V interface. There are two opamps that serve as filters with gain. There is a need for several (3-4) LDOs. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I've found a couple of chips from Greenpaks that could help here. One is a "Programmable Mixed-Signal Matrix" which could replace the opamps and provide a configurable gain using the programmable "rheostat". Another has four LDOs which would be useful and *might* be able to serve as the level shifter. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I'm waiting to hear back from someone from Renesas, who can discuss this with me, or a disti FAE. There are a lot of questions about how to turn these into a custom part number to meet my needs. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Anyone have experience with using these in production? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > -- 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Rick C. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > --It's pretty easy. 
> > > > --Just implement individual Activation Code for every board, to be generated by your server to get count of boards --manufactured and activated. 
> > > > ---when say it is easy you obviously never did anything like it.... 
> > > > > they have the source so they can just remove any "activation" checks 
> > > > in theory you are right but in practice, not exactly. 
> > > > Implementing private - public key pair is easy 
> > > > implementing one time activation codes is easy 
> > > > implementing one-way input bus only hardware is easy 
> > > and neither of those does anything because they have the source and can easily remove any checks 
> > > > .../ .... / ... 
> > > > learn how Speedport Hybrid LTE DSL router by Deutsche Telekom is hard/software locked to local APN of the customer 
> > > customers don't have the source so they can't remove the lock and it is permanently connected to the internet so can be remotely disabled 
> > they can try to remove checks if checks are not part of the contract 
> > but if checks are part of the contracts and you attach 3G/4G/LTE modem to communicate with a server at preset intervals, you get modem identified by number, by sim card, by "from" field in sms message 
> > easy cake
#stopyourfake

On Wednesday, 28 September 2022 at 23:10:17 UTC+2, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 28/9/22 21:49, Don Y wrote: 
> > On 9/28/2022 3:00 AM, bitrex wrote: 
> >> On 9/27/2022 1:51 PM, Don Y wrote: 
> >>> If you must share your IP -- *all* of your IP -- then there's little 
> >>> you can really do.  I've seen customers "steal" fully disclosed 
> >>> designs (industrial applications) without batting an eyelash -- pay 
> >>> for system #1 and reproduce it, exactly, multiple times thereafter 
> >>> (saving a few hundred kilobucks each time). 
> >> 
> >> Right. If the customer wants *all* your IP then it seems better to 
> >> charge appropriately up-front than to worry about royalties. 
> > 
> > There are some markets where this isn't possible; where you *must* 
> > disclose a design in its entirety (e.g., regulated industries). 
> > Or, where some assurances must exist of continued availability 
> > of the design documents even in the face of your (or your company's) 
> > demise.
> We have handled that using Escrow services. Simply archive a virtual 
> machine with all the design files and lock it in the safe at an escrow 
> agency, and write the appropriate agreement dictating under what 
> conditions they can open the safe and to whom they should give a copy of 
> the contents.
> > But, usually, the customers there aren't interested in going into 
> > the equipment business against you.  Rather, their interests lie 
> > elsewhere... USING your equipment to achieve some other goal 
> > in which they are expert.
> Exactly right. Consider their motivational model, and write suitable 
> contracts. Locked hardware is just an invitation for them to break it.
Escrow services have nothing to do with IT Protection contract

You don't need any third party, you need a lawyer to work for you to ink a contract and need your bank to get money paid back


----
Escrow services can allow money or documents to change hands without either party assuming any risk. An escrow service essentially acts as a disinterested third party and takes possession of the money or documents until the transaction is complete. In exchange for the services, the escrow service will generally charge a flat fee.
What is an Escrow Service? (with pictures) - Smart Capital Mind
www.smartcapitalmind.com/what-is-an-escrow-service.htm
www.smartcapitalmind.com/what-is-an-escrow-service.htm

On 9/28/2022 2:10 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 28/9/22 21:49, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/28/2022 3:00 AM, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 9/27/2022 1:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> If you must share your IP -- *all* of your IP -- then there's little
>>>> you can really do.  I've seen customers "steal" fully disclosed
>>>> designs (industrial applications) without batting an eyelash -- pay
>>>> for system #1 and reproduce it, exactly, multiple times thereafter
>>>> (saving a few hundred kilobucks each time).
>>>
>>> Right. If the customer wants *all* your IP then it seems better to charge 
>>> appropriately up-front than to worry about royalties.
>>
>> There are some markets where this isn't possible; where you *must*
>> disclose a design in its entirety (e.g., regulated industries).
>> Or, where some assurances must exist of continued availability
>> of the design documents even in the face of your (or your company's)
>> demise.
> 
> We have handled that using Escrow services. Simply archive a virtual machine 
> with all the design files and lock it in the safe at an escrow agency, and 
> write the appropriate agreement dictating under what conditions they can open 
> the safe and to whom they should give a copy of the contents.

Exactly.  My experiences predate the use of VMs so we just archived
copies of all the design documents and tools with legal terms defining
how they could be reclaimed -- and by whom.  The customer really did
not want to NEED to exercise this option -- cuz it means a big headache
for them as they don't have the expertise to even understand the
material archived.  *But*, it's "insurance"; you don't want to make
a 30 year, 7 figure investment in equipment and discover that the
vendor went out of business 2 weeks later!

>> But, usually, the customers there aren't interested in going into
>> the equipment business against you.  Rather, their interests lie
>> elsewhere... USING your equipment to achieve some other goal
>> in which they are expert.
> 
> Exactly right. Consider their motivational model, and write suitable contracts. 
> Locked hardware is just an invitation for them to break it.

Locked hardware (or software) is often far easier to break than
one imagines.  Unless you've actually sat down and made it a GOAL
to crack something, you likely don't realize how resourceful you
can be in such attacks!

And, the business isn't the same as the *staff*, there.  Some
precocious engineer may want to dig into your "secrets" just
as a challenge.  And, once he's cracked them, it's highly
unlikely that he's NOT going to tell others what he's learned!

"Trust" (mistrust?) needn't be based on whether or not the
party is ethical, scrupulous, etc.  Rather, you have to
evaluate how much "faith" you have in their assertions.

SWMBO often misplaces kitchen utensils.  (I never "clean up".  Our
arrangement is that I will cook, bake, wash dishes/utensils -- but
not put stuff away or clean the {counter,stove}tops.)  When I go
looking for something and can't find it WHERE IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE,
she will swear up and down, "That's where I put it!"

And, I'm sure she *believes* that!

But, I don't TRUST these assertions.  It's not that I think
she is lying.  Or, trying to screw me over.  But, too often, I find
things in some other place -- possibly because she was distracted
when she put it away and *forgot* the fact that she had misplaced
it there.

Showing her where I eventually find it usually is met with
a simple, "Oh... I must have put it there when I..."  (the
fact that she'd JUST SAID otherwise magically gets ignored)

OTOH, if I was unable to speak for my own medical needs, I would have
no problem "trusting" her to "do the right thing" -- whatever that
might be in those circumstances.  Regardless of her own personal
preferences/biases.

On Wednesday, 28 September 2022 at 23:46:41 UTC+2, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 2:10 PM, Clifford Heath wrote: 
> > On 28/9/22 21:49, Don Y wrote: 
> >> On 9/28/2022 3:00 AM, bitrex wrote: 
> >>> On 9/27/2022 1:51 PM, Don Y wrote: 
> >>>> If you must share your IP -- *all* of your IP -- then there's little 
> >>>> you can really do.  I've seen customers "steal" fully disclosed 
> >>>> designs (industrial applications) without batting an eyelash -- pay 
> >>>> for system #1 and reproduce it, exactly, multiple times thereafter 
> >>>> (saving a few hundred kilobucks each time). 
> >>> 
> >>> Right. If the customer wants *all* your IP then it seems better to charge 
> >>> appropriately up-front than to worry about royalties. 
> >> 
> >> There are some markets where this isn't possible; where you *must* 
> >> disclose a design in its entirety (e.g., regulated industries). 
> >> Or, where some assurances must exist of continued availability 
> >> of the design documents even in the face of your (or your company's) 
> >> demise. 
> > 
> > We have handled that using Escrow services. Simply archive a virtual machine 
> > with all the design files and lock it in the safe at an escrow agency, and 
> > write the appropriate agreement dictating under what conditions they can open 
> > the safe and to whom they should give a copy of the contents.
> Exactly. My experiences predate the use of VMs so we just archived 
> copies of all the design documents and tools with legal terms defining 
> how they could be reclaimed -- and by whom. The customer really did 
> not want to NEED to exercise this option -- cuz it means a big headache 
> for them as they don't have the expertise to even understand the 
> material archived. *But*, it's "insurance"; you don't want to make 
> a 30 year, 7 figure investment in equipment and discover that the 
> vendor went out of business 2 weeks later!
> >> But, usually, the customers there aren't interested in going into 
> >> the equipment business against you.  Rather, their interests lie 
> >> elsewhere... USING your equipment to achieve some other goal 
> >> in which they are expert. 
> > 
> > Exactly right. Consider their motivational model, and write suitable contracts. 
> > Locked hardware is just an invitation for them to break it.
> Locked hardware (or software) is often far easier to break than 
> one imagines. Unless you've actually sat down and made it a GOAL 
> to crack something, you likely don't realize how resourceful you 
> can be in such attacks! 
> 
> And, the business isn't the same as the *staff*, there. Some 
> precocious engineer may want to dig into your "secrets" just 
> as a challenge. And, once he's cracked them, it's highly 
> unlikely that he's NOT going to tell others what he's learned! 
> 
> "Trust" (mistrust?) needn't be based on whether or not the 
> party is ethical, scrupulous, etc. Rather, you have to 
> evaluate how much "faith" you have in their assertions. 
> 
> SWMBO often misplaces kitchen utensils. (I never "clean up". Our 
> arrangement is that I will cook, bake, wash dishes/utensils -- but 
> not put stuff away or clean the {counter,stove}tops.) When I go 
> looking for something and can't find it WHERE IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE, 
> she will swear up and down, "That's where I put it!" 
> 
> And, I'm sure she *believes* that! 
> 
> But, I don't TRUST these assertions. It's not that I think 
> she is lying. Or, trying to screw me over. But, too often, I find 
> things in some other place -- possibly because she was distracted 
> when she put it away and *forgot* the fact that she had misplaced 
> it there. 
> 
> Showing her where I eventually find it usually is met with 
> a simple, "Oh... I must have put it there when I..." (the 
> fact that she'd JUST SAID otherwise magically gets ignored) 
> 
> OTOH, if I was unable to speak for my own medical needs, I would have 
> no problem "trusting" her to "do the right thing" -- whatever that 
> might be in those circumstances. Regardless of her own personal 
> preferences/biases.
blah blah blah

if contract value is T$100 or more, you need IP lawyer to work for you.

If you are a small entity you can hire bigger third party to buy and resell your IP, making margin profit, taking your risk.

Anyway, with every problem you finish in a court, what is highly expensive for a small entity.

So small entities enter into small low-risk contracts or build a company to make big money.

On 9/26/2022 4:09 PM, Ricky wrote:
> A customer wants me to redesign a board to eliminate the production bottlenecks.  They also want all IP so they can make the boards themselves if my company is unable to.  I'm fine with that, but I'd like to have some means of assurance they won't make boards without my royalty being respected.
> 
> The board has an FPGA which contains the "magic", an analog path, and a digital path to the outside world.  The digital path needs a 3.3V/5V interface.  There are two opamps that serve as filters with gain.  There is a need for several (3-4) LDOs.
> 
> I've found a couple of chips from Greenpaks that could help here.  One is a "Programmable Mixed-Signal Matrix" which could replace the opamps and provide a configurable gain using the programmable "rheostat".  Another has four LDOs which would be useful and *might* be able to serve as the level shifter.
> 
> I'm waiting to hear back from someone from Renesas, who can discuss this with me, or a disti FAE.  There are a lot of questions about how to turn these into a custom part number to meet my needs.
> 
> Anyone have experience with using these in production?
> 

Please let me know if you're able to get anyone and how it goes, It 
seems like the Renesas acquisition of Dialog's lineup has been sloppy as 
hell

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 12:42:56 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 7:25 AM, bitrex wrote: 
> 
> > Most of the projects I've worked on in my (relatively short with respect to 
> > design, I worked in the music biz for most of my 20s and early 30s) career have 
> > been fairly simple ones that I've felt comfortable enough saying "Pay me the 
> > agreed price and the design is yours to do with as you will" and handing off. 
> > It's the terms a number of clients tend to prefer, I charge them 
> > one-time-big-price and they seem comfortable with that.
> I think it's easier. You charge enough to make it worth your while. 
> THEY know what it will cost them. If they go on to make big money 
> on the product, so be it. They'll have been happy to have worked with 
> you. If the product flops, its hard for them to rationalize that they 
> paid you too much (they knew the price, up front). 

I can't charge as much for the design as I can make on the sales, nowhere near.  I've made around $4 million on the current board, maybe $5 million, I don't think I've added it up.  I think the sales have been around $7 million.  I expect the sales on the new design to come close to that over the next decade.  There's no way I can get them to pay me anything like that, for the design.  

I can get them to pay for the boards if I make them.  So far, they've been happy to pay what I ask, because they have so much markup on the product my boards go into.  

Once they look at manufacturing costs, and see a very low number compared to the price charged, the jig is up.  I'm pretty sure they won't bother looking at manufacturing costs until they have a need to.  Either way, the agreement has to be strict enough, that even if they make the boards, I get my share.  

This makes me think the two customized chips will need to have a significant price, enough to take the edge off what I want as a royalty, but not so high, they want to ditch them.  Maybe, make one more expensive than the other.  But first, I need to get Greenpak to talk to me. 

-- 

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 4:48:32 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> onsdag den 28. september 2022 kl. 22.37.15 UTC+2 skrev a a: 
> > On Wednesday, 28 September 2022 at 20:35:24 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > > onsdag den 28. september 2022 kl. 19.47.52 UTC+2 skrev a a: 
> > > > On Wednesday, 28 September 2022 at 17:39:37 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > > > > onsdag den 28. september 2022 kl. 14.01.10 UTC+2 skrev a a: 
> > > > > > On Monday, 26 September 2022 at 22:09:16 UTC+2, Ricky wrote: 
> > > > > > > A customer wants me to redesign a board to eliminate the production bottlenecks. They also want all IP so they can make the boards themselves if my company is unable to. I'm fine with that, but I'd like to have some means of assurance they won't make boards without my royalty being respected. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The board has an FPGA which contains the "magic", an analog path, and a digital path to the outside world. The digital path needs a 3.3V/5V interface. There are two opamps that serve as filters with gain. There is a need for several (3-4) LDOs. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I've found a couple of chips from Greenpaks that could help here. One is a "Programmable Mixed-Signal Matrix" which could replace the opamps and provide a configurable gain using the programmable "rheostat". Another has four LDOs which would be useful and *might* be able to serve as the level shifter. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I'm waiting to hear back from someone from Renesas, who can discuss this with me, or a disti FAE. There are a lot of questions about how to turn these into a custom part number to meet my needs. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Anyone have experience with using these in production? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > -- 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Rick C. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > --It's pretty easy. 
> > > > --Just implement individual Activation Code for every board, to be generated by your server to get count of boards --manufactured and activated. 
> > > > ---when say it is easy you obviously never did anything like it.... 
> > > > > they have the source so they can just remove any "activation" checks 
> > > > in theory you are right but in practice, not exactly. 
> > > > Implementing private - public key pair is easy 
> > > > implementing one time activation codes is easy 
> > > > implementing one-way input bus only hardware is easy 
> > > and neither of those does anything because they have the source and can easily remove any checks 
> > > > .../ .... / ... 
> > > > learn how Speedport Hybrid LTE DSL router by Deutsche Telekom is hard/software locked to local APN of the customer 
> > > customers don't have the source so they can't remove the lock and it is permanently connected to the internet so can be remotely disabled 
> > they can try to remove checks if checks are not part of the contract 
> > but if checks are part of the contracts and you attach 3G/4G/LTE modem to communicate with a server at preset intervals, you get modem identified by number, by sim card, by "from" field in sms message 
> > easy cake
> and totally irrelevant to the topic

You are just feeding the troll. 

-- 

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209