bitrex <user@example.net> wrote in news:5pN5K.130148$WZCa.25644@fx08.iad:> On 4/13/2022 3:52 PM, RichD wrote: >> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. >> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. > > Biggest engine is always better than anything there's no > replacement for displacement. > >> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, >> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight >> calculation? >> >> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - > > NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT VRRRRRROOMM BRRRRRRRThere is an 8500HP funny car that launches to 100MPH in 0.8 sec. 8.2 liter displacement.
Tesla is fast
Started by ●April 13, 2022
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
On 4/14/2022 11:29 AM, Ricky wrote:> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:15:50 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote: >> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>> On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote: >>>> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. >>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. >>>>> >>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, >>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? >>>>> >>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Rich >>>> >>>> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train >>>> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a >>>> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's >>>> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque, >>>> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor. >>> >>> Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US >>> for niche applications e.g. >>> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design> >>> >>> Basically a city bus on rails. >>> >>> The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to >>> service design it seems: >>> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000> >> What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in Ireland about 15 years ago. >> They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in Korea. For the intended >> use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The north american train >> standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so the entire concept of a >> fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially passenger trains have to survive >> a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, heaviest railcars. They will >> obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia. >>> When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven >>> locomotives were pretty cool-looking: >>> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg> >> Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way they made large motors >> back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors with long skinny rotors at >> all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key? > > The motor turns at the RPM of the wheels. Even for an electric motor that is slow. So to get adequate torque at low speed the motor needs a large diameter. Compare to BEVs today where the motor is very compact, but turns at 9x the wheel rate which is much faster than the locomotive wheel rate. Some of the old steam engines had wheels tall as a man. >Those DD1s ran off about 600 volts DC, at the time the wire diameter for the rotor & stator field coils must've been pretty large, too.
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
On 4/14/2022 11:22 AM, Ricky wrote:> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:05:25 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote: >> On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote: >>> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. >>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. >>>> >>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, >>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? >>>> >>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Rich >>> >>> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train >>> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a >>> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's >>> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque, >>> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor. >> Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US >> for niche applications e.g. >> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design> >> >> Basically a city bus on rails. >> >> The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to >> service design it seems: >> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000> >> >> When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven >> locomotives were pretty cool-looking: >> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg> > > My dad was a dispatcher on the CSX railroad and complained about the unreliable Budd cars. Seems they often broke down and the headache of a blocked track was his. They were used for commuter trains because they could be configured into different sizes easily with one driver and could even driven by one car if the others broke down, which was not uncommon according to my dad. Some failures did not allow for any operation though. >Maybe they were designed by bus-people, or Budd forgot a bunch of what it learned about RDC design in the time between 1945 and 1975...
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 17.29.05 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:15:50 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote: > > bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > > > On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote: > > >> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. > > >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. > > >>> > > >>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, > > >>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? > > >>> > > >>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Rich > > >> > > >> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train > > >> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a > > >> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's > > >> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque, > > >> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor. > > > > > > Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US > > > for niche applications e.g. > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design> > > > > > > Basically a city bus on rails. > > > > > > The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to > > > service design it seems: > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000> > > What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in Ireland about 15 years ago. > > They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in Korea. For the intended > > use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The north american train > > standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so the entire concept of a > > fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially passenger trains have to survive > > a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, heaviest railcars. They will > > obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia. > > > When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven > > > locomotives were pretty cool-looking: > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg> > > Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way they made large motors > > back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors with long skinny rotors at > > all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key? > The motor turns at the RPM of the wheels. Even for an electric motor that is slow. So to get adequate torque at low speed the motor needs a large diameter. Compare to BEVs today where the motor is very compact, but turns at 9x the wheel rate which is much faster than the locomotive wheel rate. Some of the old steam engines had wheels tall as a man. >large wheels avoided a gear between the slow steam engine, fast spinning bearings, and large wheels also have more traction look like this train has about a 4:1 gearing between the motor and wheels https://youtu.be/WokCyQAsh-E?t=149
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
On 4/13/2022 4:52 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: >> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. >>> >>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, >>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? >>> >>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - >> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short termYep, I put a 2hp 28V motor on a go Kart. 2HP = 1492 watts/28V = 53 amps. But I ran it on 48v and the 250 amp meter pegged on acceleration. 48v x 250 = 12,000 watts. 12,000 / 746 = 16 HP. We could run it a full speed 40mph without any heat problems, but by the time you got to full speed the current had dropped way down. Mikek -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ... > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks? > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. In a 30 minute break, charging can restore some 70-80% of the initial range. Call it 75%, so 11 hours of driving can extend to 175% of the initial range. 11 hr x 65 mph = 715 miles requires a vehicle range of over 400 miles. That's not a stretch in any way. Tesla is planning 300 and 500 mile versions. I can't tell you the weight of those batteries, but Tesla is saying they will not have to give up significantly on the payload capacity, "less than 1 ton", according to Musk. Batteries are improving all the time. A couple of automakers are saying in three or so years they will be offering solid state batteries with better performance. There's no reason to think electric semi trucks are in any way not happening. -- Rick C. --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 2:19:02 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:15:48 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > > >On 4/13/2022 8:57 PM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD > >> <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. > >> > >> When they are not in line to get to a charging station. > >> > >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. > >> > >> Some people enjoy alternating between max accel and max decel. > >> > >> > >> > > > >Can't recall ever lining up for one. Mostly around here they're not used > >very much, not that there's a shortage of EVs but most people charge at > >home. > > > >Businesses and public parking lots and state parks etc. often have them > >but don't tend to be able to figure out how to set the pricing on them > >or particularly care to they tend to be set at like $0 or 50 cents a > >kWh, depending, totally divorced from the price of gas or electricity > >for that matter. > > > >I think they tend to install them because they get a tax credit or > >legislation mandates it in the case of public facilities but nobody > >really understands the tech once it's installed or knows how to make any > >money off it or cares to figure out how, only Tesla's network seems to > >have accomplished that in a meaningful way. > EVs all about tax credits and climate nonsense. Absent those, there > wouldn't be any. > > What happened to the Tesla semi? I'd think that truck drivers are too > smart to buy into that.Hucksters are particularly skilled at fooling others. Some people are uniquely good at fooling themselves. lol -- Rick C. --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 3:29:48 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 17.29.05 UTC+2 skrev Ricky: > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:15:50 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote: > > > bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > > > > On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote: > > > >> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. > > > >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. > > > >>> > > > >>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, > > > >>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? > > > >>> > > > >>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> Rich > > > >> > > > >> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train > > > >> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a > > > >> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's > > > >> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque, > > > >> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor. > > > > > > > > Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US > > > > for niche applications e.g. > > > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design> > > > > > > > > Basically a city bus on rails. > > > > > > > > The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to > > > > service design it seems: > > > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000> > > > What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in Ireland about 15 years ago. > > > They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in Korea. For the intended > > > use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The north american train > > > standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so the entire concept of a > > > fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially passenger trains have to survive > > > a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, heaviest railcars. They will > > > obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia. > > > > When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven > > > > locomotives were pretty cool-looking: > > > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg> > > > Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way they made large motors > > > back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors with long skinny rotors at > > > all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key? > > The motor turns at the RPM of the wheels. Even for an electric motor that is slow. So to get adequate torque at low speed the motor needs a large diameter. Compare to BEVs today where the motor is very compact, but turns at 9x the wheel rate which is much faster than the locomotive wheel rate. Some of the old steam engines had wheels tall as a man. > > > large wheels avoided a gear between the slow steam engine, fast spinning bearings, and large wheels also have more traction > > look like this train has about a 4:1 gearing between the motor and wheels https://youtu.be/WokCyQAsh-E?t=149Yeah, to make that work, the motor has to be smaller or the gears are larger than the wheels. Or you use a large motor and the connecting rod. -- Rick C. -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: > > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. > > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, > > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - > > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. > > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term > > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. > > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ... > > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks? > > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV. > Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off.EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:53:33 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:> On 4/13/2022 4:52 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > >> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: > >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. > >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. > >>> > >>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, > >>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? > >>> > >>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - > >> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term > Yep, I put a 2hp 28V motor on a go Kart. 2HP = 1492 watts/28V = 53 amps. > But I ran it on 48v and the 250 amp meter pegged on acceleration. > 48v x 250 = 12,000 watts. 12,000 / 746 = 16 HP. We could run it a full speed > 40mph without any heat problems, but by the time you got to full speed > the current > had dropped way down.Many years ago some guys from a car magazine tried making a dragster out of a mail jeep and an electric motor, DC commutator I believe. They had a little trouble with the commutator I believe, but the ultimate problem was they used a cog belt drive, and kept shredding the belts! I guess no one tried doing any math to see what the forces would be. -- Rick C. -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
