Tesla is fast

On 4/14/2022 9:36 AM, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/13/2022 9:15 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>> On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>>> RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>>>> that this would be the case?&nbsp; Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Rich
>>>>
>>>> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why 
>>>> train
>>>> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
>>>> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, 
>>>> there's
>>>> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
>>>> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
>>>
>>> Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
>>> for niche applications e.g.
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>
>>>
>>> Basically a city bus on rails.
>>>
>>> The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
>>> service design it seems:
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>
>>
>> What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in 
>> Ireland about 15 years ago.
>> They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in 
>> Korea. For the intended
>> use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The 
>> north american train
>> standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so 
>> the entire concept of a
>> fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially 
>> passenger trains have to survive
>> a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, 
>> heaviest railcars. They will
>> obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia.
> 
> The FRA imposed some big-time regulation on passenger rail vehicle 
> strength after WW2, yeah. I think those are _maybe_ getting finally 
> relaxed a bit as of the past couple years? Not sure with respect to 
> diesel rail cars on freight lines maybe I'm thinking of something else.
> 
> It's too bad as light weight DRCs that could run alongside freight 
> equipment would open up possibility of service on under-served routes 
> like e.g. Worcester MA -> Providence, RI and Boston -> Nashua, NH (just 
> as local examples I know of) where there's some demand but hard to make 
> the numbers work either as a public service or commercial venture with 
> heavy rail.
> 
> 
>>> When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
>>> locomotives were pretty cool-looking:
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg> 
>>>
>>
>> Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way 
>> they made large motors
>> back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors 
>> with long skinny rotors at
>> all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key?
> 
> Maybe, there were some DC motors that fit between the wheels then. The 
> shafts on those in the pic are huge though, I think at the time around 
> the turn of the century engineers were very conservative with this new 
> technology and their main concern was ensuring they had enough torque 
> hence the giant shafts. But there were many improvements in insulation, 
> core material, bearings etc. from 1910-30 and the AC motor size 
> decreased rapidly

Er, DC motor size rather the DD1 was DC-powered. Both AC and DC motors 
decreased in size over that time though for similar reasons I think

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:11:45 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote: 
> > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
> > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
> > 
> > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
> > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
> > 
> > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Rich
> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train 
> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a 
> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's 
> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque, 
> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.

Locomotives don't give a durn about "pickup speed fast".  The generator/traction motor is all about avoiding the complication of a gearbox and clutch which is harder to do at such power levels with good reliability.  If you've ever seen a locomotive or locomotives pull a mile long freight train from a dead stop, you would realize "fast" doesn't enter into the equation and that a clutch would be toast very quickly.  Even a hydraulic clutch would need to be very large and dissipate a lot of heat.  

-- 

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:05:25 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote: 
> > RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote: 
> >> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
> >> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
> >> 
> >> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
> >> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
> >> 
> >> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - 
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Rich 
> > 
> > electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train 
> > locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a 
> > generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's 
> > nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque, 
> > there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
> Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US 
> for niche applications e.g. 
> 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design> 
> 
> Basically a city bus on rails. 
> 
> The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to 
> service design it seems: 
> 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000> 
> 
> When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven 
> locomotives were pretty cool-looking: 
> 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>

My dad was a dispatcher on the CSX railroad and complained about the unreliable Budd cars.  Seems they often broke down and the headache of a blocked track was his.  They were used for commuter trains because they could be configured into different sizes easily with one driver and could even driven by one car if the others broke down, which was not uncommon according to my dad.  Some failures did not allow for any operation though. 

-- 

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:15:50 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: 
> > On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote: 
> >> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote: 
> >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
> >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
> >>> 
> >>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
> >>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
> >>> 
> >>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - 
> >>> 
> >>> -- 
> >>> Rich 
> >> 
> >> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train 
> >> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a 
> >> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's 
> >> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque, 
> >> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor. 
> > 
> > Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US 
> > for niche applications e.g. 
> > 
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design> 
> > 
> > Basically a city bus on rails. 
> > 
> > The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to 
> > service design it seems: 
> > 
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>
> What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in Ireland about 15 years ago. 
> They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in Korea. For the intended 
> use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The north american train 
> standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so the entire concept of a 
> fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially passenger trains have to survive 
> a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, heaviest railcars. They will 
> obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia.
> > When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven 
> > locomotives were pretty cool-looking: 
> > 
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>
> Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way they made large motors 
> back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors with long skinny rotors at 
> all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key?

The motor turns  at the RPM of the wheels.  Even for an electric motor that is slow.  So to get adequate torque at low speed the motor needs a large diameter.   Compare to BEVs today where the motor is very compact, but turns at 9x the wheel rate which is much faster than the locomotive wheel rate.   Some of the old steam engines had wheels tall as a man. 

-- 

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:27:52 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/13/2022 3:52 PM, RichD wrote: 
> > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
> > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> Biggest engine is always better than anything there's no replacement for 
> displacement.
> > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
> > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
> > 
> > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT VRRRRRROOMM BRRRRRRR 

I think you missed the "silver" medal point.  For cars on the road, you have to go to extreme lengths to find a faster accelerating car than BEVs. 

-- 

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD 
> <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote: 
> 
> >Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> When they are not in line to get to a charging station.

I am amazed at how quickly they are building Superchargers.  My home town Frederick, MD had a bank of 8 chargers which would often be more than half full.  Given the sharing of each charger between two "hoses", this means someone is not getting the most rapid charge rate.  About  200 yards away they installed another bank of eight, 250 kW charging units.  

A spot I sometimes charge on my way to the airport in Laural, MD, now has three stations of Superchargers while it used to have only one!  Again, all the new ones are 250 kW with no sharing which will charge each car as quickly as possible. 

It's funny to watch Larkin rage against the light.  As BEVs take over transportation, when do you think Larkin will throw in the towel and acknowledge BEVs are the better solution?  In many ways, they are the Jetson mobile doing everything but fly.  Actually, I seem to recall the Jetson mobile leaving a trail of exhaust.  I guess they weren't all that forward thinking. 

-- 

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: 
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: 
> > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: 
> > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
> > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
> > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - 
> > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. 
> > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term 
> > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...

More FUD.  Usually you post real information.  What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?  

-- 

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: 
> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: 
> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: 
> > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
> > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
> > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - 
> > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. 
> > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term 
> > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. 
> > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks? 

Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck.  In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries.  However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV. 

Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:11:45 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote: 
>> > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
>> > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
>> > 
>> > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
>> > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
>> > 
>> > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - 
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > Rich
>> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train 
>> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a 
>> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's 
>> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque, 
>> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
> 
> Locomotives don't give a durn about "pickup speed fast".  The generator/traction motor is all 
> about avoiding the complication of a gearbox and clutch which is harder to do at such power 
> levels with good reliability.  If you've ever seen a locomotive or locomotives pull a mile 
> long freight train from a dead stop, you would realize "fast" doesn't enter into the equation 
> and that a clutch would be toast very quickly.  Even a hydraulic clutch would need to be very 
> large and dissipate a lot of heat.

Glad you read the part about needing starting torque and freight trains.

Long ago I toured general motor's EMD locomotive factory in IL. It was a fascinating plant with 
largest of all machine tools. They eventually shifted new production to Kansas and Canada, then 
the company got sold a bunch of times. I think the Canadian plant is gone now too. GM's 
vehicles are trash, but their giant diesel engines are spot on.
 

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:15:48 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 4/13/2022 8:57 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD
>> <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> 
>> When they are not in line to get to a charging station.
>> 
>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>> 
>> Some people enjoy alternating between max accel and max decel.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>Can't recall ever lining up for one. Mostly around here they're not used 
>very much, not that there's a shortage of EVs but most people charge at 
>home.
>
>Businesses and public parking lots and state parks etc. often have them 
>but don't tend to be able to figure out how to set the pricing on them 
>or particularly care to they tend to be set at like $0 or 50 cents a 
>kWh, depending, totally divorced from the price of gas or electricity 
>for that matter.
>
>I think they tend to install them because they get a tax credit or 
>legislation mandates it in the case of public facilities but nobody 
>really understands the tech once it's installed or knows how to make any 
>money off it or cares to figure out how, only Tesla's network seems to 
>have accomplished that in a meaningful way.

EVs all about tax credits and climate nonsense. Absent those, there
wouldn't be any.

What happened to the Tesla semi? I'd think that truck drivers are too
smart to buy into that.

-- 

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, 
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon