On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:>On 19/02/2022 03:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ > >I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are >chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so >there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >burns itself out." > >An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet >of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are >around 1000�C, perhaps 1200�C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500�C, >which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >combustion is entirely different too.A lithium battery fire is hot enough to soften steel to the point that a steel structure will collapse, even if the steel does not melt. If this were not true, there would be no blacksmiths, and all iron articles would be cast. For instance at an airport in Norway in January 2020. Here is a report on the incident from the Norwegians. The effect of ICE fuels is also addressed. This fire is thought to have started in an old diesel car, but it could just as well been a Tesla - we have lots of examples. .<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6juEM8UTsc> "Investigation of a massive fire in a multi-storey car park in Norway" - Ragni Fjellgaard Mikalsen, 22 June 2021. Joe Gwinn
scary video of battery fire
Started by ●February 18, 2022
Reply by ●February 19, 20222022-02-19
Reply by ●February 19, 20222022-02-19
On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:57:32 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 07:56:42 -0800 (PST), Ed Lee > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > >On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:24:09 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman > >> <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> > >> >On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> >> > >> >> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ > >> > > >> >I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are > >> >chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so > >> >there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally > >> >burns itself out." > >> > > >> >An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet > >> >of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are > >> >around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt > >> >steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C, > >> >which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of > >> >combustion is entirely different too. > >> What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, and > >> get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out. > >> > >> A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode. > > > >Very low power density per pound/kg. > And the liquid electrolyte probably cools off small shorts until they > open, before they spread.Larkin is a poor thinker. It is the heat that eliminates a small short by "blowing" the fuse. Keep it cool and the short remains. Lead acid batteries do very much explode. You would need to be very sheltered to not be familiar with that. They both can explode from shorts causing the sulfuric acid electrolyte to boil or from the hydrogen vented mixing with oxygen and exploding when sparked. https://www.quora.com/What-makes-a-car-s-battery-explode -- Rick C. -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●February 19, 20222022-02-19
On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 12:17:05 PM UTC-5, Joe Gwinn wrote:> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman > <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> > >> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ > > > >I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are > >chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so > >there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally > >burns itself out." > > > >An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet > >of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are > >around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt > >steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C, > >which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of > >combustion is entirely different too. > A lithium battery fire is hot enough to soften steel to the point that > a steel structure will collapse, even if the steel does not melt. > > If this were not true, there would be no blacksmiths, and all iron > articles would be cast. > > For instance at an airport in Norway in January 2020. Here is a > report on the incident from the Norwegians. The effect of ICE fuels > is also addressed. This fire is thought to have started in an old > diesel car, but it could just as well been a Tesla - we have lots of > examples. > > .<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6juEM8UTsc> > > "Investigation of a massive fire in a multi-storey car park in Norway" > - Ragni Fjellgaard Mikalsen, 22 June 2021.Lol! I like the fact that you show an example of gasoline fires destroying a huge garage to support the idea that lithum-ion battery fires are dangerous. "It could just as well been" lithium batteries! Most likely there were a few BEVs in that garage. The report you link says they don't know how many vehicles total and they don't know how many BEVs. So not much of a report. They did say the BEVs did not contribute to the fire any more than gasoline cars as reported by the fire fighters. I think the take away from this is, they need to park the gasoline cars somewhere else so the BEVs are safe from the gasoline fires. Er det ikke sant? -- Rick C. +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●February 19, 20222022-02-19
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com Wrote in message:r> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 05:48:34 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>l�rdag den 19. februar 2022 kl. 04.09.02 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:>> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ >> >>I thought you weren't scared of anything?I'm not, but I wouldn't like having my house or my childrenincinerated. But I'm interested in electrical things.-- I yam what I yam - PopeyeWhat about 'Hank the Tank'? Cheers -- ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html
Reply by ●February 19, 20222022-02-19
On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 13:35:05 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com Wrote in message:r >> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 05:48:34 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>l�rdag den 19. februar 2022 kl. 04.09.02 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:>> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ >> >>I thought you weren't scared of anything?I'm not, but I wouldn't like having my house or my childrenincinerated. But I'm interested in electrical things.-- I yam what I yam - Popeye > >What about 'Hank the Tank'? > >CheersIt would be annoying to have a bear in the kitchen. They make a real mess. And they smell bad. South Tahoe seems to get more bears than we do. And the first floor of our cabin is concrete blocks, which are bug-proof and fire-proof and bear-proof. We have a friend in Homewood that had to install electric door mats. -- I yam what I yam - Popeye
Reply by ●February 19, 20222022-02-19
On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:08:10 -0800 (PST), Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:>On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 12:17:05 PM UTC-5, Joe Gwinn wrote: >> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman >> <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote: >> >On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> >> >> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ >> > >> >I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are >> >chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so >> >there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >> >burns itself out." >> > >> >An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet >> >of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are >> >around 1000�C, perhaps 1200�C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >> >steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500�C, >> >which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >> >combustion is entirely different too. >> A lithium battery fire is hot enough to soften steel to the point that >> a steel structure will collapse, even if the steel does not melt. >> >> If this were not true, there would be no blacksmiths, and all iron >> articles would be cast. >> >> For instance at an airport in Norway in January 2020. Here is a >> report on the incident from the Norwegians. The effect of ICE fuels >> is also addressed. This fire is thought to have started in an old >> diesel car, but it could just as well been a Tesla - we have lots of >> examples. >> >> .<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6juEM8UTsc> >> >> "Investigation of a massive fire in a multi-storey car park in Norway" >> - Ragni Fjellgaard Mikalsen, 22 June 2021. > >Lol! I like the fact that you show an example of gasoline fires destroying a huge garage to support the idea that lithum-ion battery fires are dangerous. "It could just as well been" lithium batteries! > >Most likely there were a few BEVs in that garage. The report you link says they don't know how many vehicles total and they don't know how many BEVs. So not much of a report. They did say the BEVs did not contribute to the fire any more than gasoline cars as reported by the fire fighters. > >I think the take away from this is, they need to park the gasoline cars somewhere else so the BEVs are safe from the gasoline fires. Er det ikke sant?The original question was if such fires can bring a building down, the claim being that this was impossible. But it turns out to have happened multiple times, with films and investigations to prove it. Also note that such parking structures are very common in airports around the world, and it was quite uncommon for a vehicle fire to spread to such a degree, to the point of taking the building down, until very recently. EVs are quite common in Norway. And I bet the Norwegians know *exactly* what kind of vehicles were destroyed, from vehicle registration records and insurance claims and/or lawsuits. Not to mention parking-garage records, and audits of licence plate number inventories taken every night (to prevent embezzlement). Even if the car was totally destroyed, it would be pretty easy to make the case that the car was lost in that fire. Wonder why they didn't want to say. Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●February 19, 20222022-02-19
On 2/19/2022 8:56 AM, Ed Lee wrote:> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:24:09 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman >> <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote: >> >>> On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> >>>> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ >>> >>> I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are >>> chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so >>> there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >>> burns itself out." >>> >>> An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet >>> of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are >>> around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >>> steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C, >>> which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >>> combustion is entirely different too. >> What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, and >> get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out. >> >> A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode. > > Very low power density per pound/kg.Neighbor's house burned TO THE GROUND (literally, nothing left standing) because of a fire *started* by a lead-acid battery (electrical short). Not much "energy" in a single match -- but that won't prevent it from burning down a forest!
Reply by ●February 19, 20222022-02-19
On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:54:29 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:>On 2/19/2022 8:56 AM, Ed Lee wrote: >> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:24:09 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman >>> <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ >>>> >>>> I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are >>>> chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so >>>> there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >>>> burns itself out." >>>> >>>> An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet >>>> of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are >>>> around 1000�C, perhaps 1200�C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >>>> steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500�C, >>>> which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >>>> combustion is entirely different too. >>> What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, and >>> get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out. >>> >>> A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode. >> >> Very low power density per pound/kg. > >Neighbor's house burned TO THE GROUND (literally, nothing left standing) >because of a fire *started* by a lead-acid battery (electrical short).Did the battery or the shorting wire start the fire? I guess nobody will ever know.> >Not much "energy" in a single match -- but that won't prevent it >from burning down a forest!Here in California, all sorts of people and businesses are being held liable for starting big forest fires, when the real problem is crazy forest management and insane fuel loads. There will always be ignition sources. People should get awards for starting fires. Lots of little fires are better than a few gigantic ones. -- I yam what I yam - Popeye
Reply by ●February 19, 20222022-02-19
On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 7:19:49 AM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:54:29 -0700, Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote: > >On 2/19/2022 8:56 AM, Ed Lee wrote: > >> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:24:09 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >>>> On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:<snip>> Here in California, all sorts of people and businesses are being held > liable for starting big forest fires, when the real problem is crazy > forest management and insane fuel loads. There will always be ignition > sources. > > People should get awards for starting fires. Lots of little fires are > better than a few gigantic ones.In Australia, the fire-fighters do it as part of their job. At the end of every winter Sydney tends to get covered in smoke haze as the fire services carry out "fuel reduction burns"' In a bad fire season it doesn't help much. Getting rid of the easily inflammable scrub gets rid of a lot of tinder, but when whole trees start burning there's a lot more fuel available and the fire can get gigantic early on and burn though large areas. Climate change isn't helping. The most recent bad bushfire season saw our stand of Wollemia pine - a living fossil - threatened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wollemia They seem to have been around for 100 million years which points up the speed of the recent warming. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●February 20, 20222022-02-20
On 19/02/2022 16:34, Rick C wrote:> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 10:24:09 AM UTC-5, > jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman >> <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote: >> >>> On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> >>>> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ >>>> >>> >>> I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires >>> are chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt >>> steel, so there may not be much left to analyse by the time the >>> ship fire finally burns itself out." >>> >>> An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the >>> internet of investigations into EV battery fires. The >>> temperatures reached are around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some >>> cases. That's not enough to melt steel, just to soften and weaken >>> it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C, which is not too far off the >>> /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of combustion is entirely >>> different too. >> What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, >> and get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out. >> >> A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode. >> >> >> It's apparently not prudent to keep big lithium batteries indoors. >> >> >> Google images for 'tesla fire'. Often there's not much of the car >> left. > > Yeah, they have that in common with gasoline fires. A big difference > is you can put out a lithium-ion battery fire by spraying water on > it. Gasoline floats on water and spreads like... wildfire. You have > to use special foams and such. Very hard to put out and very > dangerous. Gasoline fires make lithium-ion battery fires look like > no big deal in comparison. They also happen much less often, > "traditional internal-combustion vehicles experience one fire for > every 19 million miles traveled; for Teslas EVs, it's one fire for > 205 million miles traveled." That's a factor of over 10 to 1! > > We had an accident on the DC beltway with a gasoline fire that was so > hot they feared it took the temper out of the bridge girders over it. > Gasoline fires are so hot, they heat material above the ignition > temperature of gasoline, so even when you put out the fire, it can > reignite. > > Noooo, gasoline fires are nothing to mess with. Very dangerous and > hard to put out. That is what you were saying, right? >What is certainly true, is that petrol fires are no joke. Pouring on a bit of water will spread the burning petrol if there is sufficient heat to keep it alight - you need enough water to cool the petrol (and anything else heated by the fire) below the ignition temperature, and you need to do it without spreading the fire. But you can put out the flames using foams that block the oxygen. In some cases, just pouring on water is /fine/ - a thin layer of burning petrol floating on water is not going to damage a road that is already cleared, and it will go out quickly. But if that process carries flames to other things that can ignite, you're in big trouble. Choosing the best way to fight a fire is not just a matter of knowing the material that is burning. Lithium fires are also no joke. Foams won't help in many battery fires, as blocking off oxygen does not stop the fire. Pouring on water can make it worse, causing a more violent fire. The ideal treatment is to put the battery in a water bath to cool it. According to the Norwegian Fire Brigade (in Norway we have a higher proportion of electric cars than anywhere else), a fire in the battery of an electric car is a much bigger problem than a fire in a petrol car. They have had to develop new methods - including lifting the burning car into a large water bath. However, most fires in electric cars (especially newer ones) don't ignite the battery, and fires are far rarer in electric cars than petrol cars (relative to the number of cars). Overall, therefore, electric cars are significantly safer (by a factor of about 5, if I remember the statistics correctly) than petrol cars in terms of fires. What is new, however, is that we now have lithium batteries inside buildings in a way that we don't have petrol. The high-risk time for petrol is when filling a tank, or when there is another problem with the running car - petrol fires in cars parked in garages are very uncommon. The biggest risk for lithium batteries is when charging them, especially if the battery is damaged or the charger or battery is of poor quality. So people are seeing lithium fires in their homes from charging electric bike batteries and the like. There have been several major fires from burning batteries at electric scooter hire companies.
