On 20-Nov-21 5:48 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:> Hi, > > I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of > syncing using the DCF radio station > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to sync. > > I may have asked about this before. > > Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks can > only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my clocks > can be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting corrected in weeks. > > So I wonder if somebody makes some sort of ready made clock that uses > internet for syncing and which can be put on a wall. Or a kit. > > Possibly it would run Android. > > For example I found one or two bedside alarm clocks (Lenovo Smart Clock > Essential, with microphone switched off). But nothing for the wall. I > really do not want a smart clock with a microphone listening, I just > want a clock, perhaps with a thermometer or weather app. > > > A possibility would be dedicate an old tablet to this. Or an ebook > reader (some have apps) > > I heard of people doing things like that with a Pi or whatever, but I > don't look forward to that, somehow, from scratch. A kit, may be. > > > Maybe a DCF repeater? >Will it be powered from the mains behind the clock, or be battery powered? WiFi takes a fair bit of power. Sylvia.
Seeking for a wall clock
Started by ●November 19, 2021
Reply by ●November 23, 20212021-11-23
Reply by ●November 23, 20212021-11-23
On 20-Nov-21 5:48 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:> Hi, > > I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of > syncing using the DCF radio station > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to sync. > > I may have asked about this before. > > Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks can > only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my clocks > can be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting corrected in weeks. > > So I wonder if somebody makes some sort of ready made clock that uses > internet for syncing and which can be put on a wall. Or a kit. >For a while I had a clock that I'd modified by removing its internal electronics, and running the motor through wires connected to some remote electronics of my own devising that were connected to a PC. It also handled the shift between daylight saving and standard time, either by running the clock fast for a time, or stopping it for an hour, as appropriate. It worked, mostly, though I found that it had missed about ten ticks in the space of six months. The electronics had the correct time, but the clock was not displaying it. That was about 1 tick in 1.5 million. I never did determine why, but the cheap motor might have had something to do with it. I was going to modify it for a continuous sweep motor, but moved houses, and access behind the clock wasn't so convenient. Sylvia.
Reply by ●November 24, 20212021-11-24
On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 9:45:57 PM UTC-5, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:> On Friday, 19 November 2021 at 18:32:11 UTC-8, Carlos E.R. wrote: > ... > > > The repeater input rod is oriented for maximum reception from > > > Mainflingen. The repeater output rod is perpendicular, and the clock > > > is nearby, with its rod parallel to the repeater output rod. > > Hum. Too complicated, unless someone sells a prepared kit. It has been > > decades since I do anything of the sort. > ... > You don't need a Raspberry Pi to synchronize with NTP. > > Here is a design using an ESP8266 programmed in the Arduino IDE. > > https://www.instructables.com/ESP8266-LED-Matrix-Clock/ > >Even simpler solution is to get an Arduino mkr WiFi 1010 module and install the NTP library and the example program. With a little luck, that should be all you need If you want to go the PI routes get the pi zero. Good luck J
Reply by ●November 24, 20212021-11-24
On 20/11/2021 09.32, Martin Brown wrote:> On 19/11/2021 21:52, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 19/11/2021 22.19, Martin Brown wrote: >>> On 19/11/2021 18:48, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of >>>> syncing using the DCF radio station >>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to >>>> sync. >>>> >>>> I may have asked about this before. >>>> >>>> Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks >>>> can only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that >>>> my clocks can be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting >>>> corrected in weeks. >>> >>> A decent quartz crystal clock should be good to a few tens of seconds >>> a month at most. There is something wrong if it runs out more than that. >> >> Specs are normally up to 4 seconds off per day, thus easily a minute a >> month; thus by the time I have to adjust summer/winter time, they are >> easily 5 minutes off. > > There is usually a trimmer on the back or in the case so you adjust it > to be within about 2ppm if you have the patience. A little wheel with a > legend along the lines of "- <-> +" though sometimes just an exposed > screwhead. I assume here that the clock will be indoors and not subject > to violent changes in temperature.Nope, no vissible trimmers at all.> >> And I hate having to adjust summer/winter time. >> >> I also have 2 "automatic" DCF clocks, radio adjusted, and they don't >> work. > > Buy better ones then.I buy what is available. I would buy better if the specs at Amazon would say "this DCF clock is guaranteed to work in the south of Spain". They are intended to work in Germany and nearby. DCF clocks simply do not work in Spain, because we are at the limit of the area DCF emitter is intended to cover. See the graph: <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Dcf_weite.jpg/220px-Dcf_weite.jpg> And then see the graph just below that one that shows signal in Nerja, Spain («DCF77 signal strength over a 24-hour period measured in Nerja, on the south coast of Spain 1,801 km (1,119 mi) from the transmitter. Around 1 AM it peaks at ≈ 100 µV/m signal strength. During the day, the signal is weakened by ionization of the ionosphere due to solar activity.») https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77 Very unlikely that a clock using one AA cell, not even two cells, can work reliably with that signal. The obvious solution is to use WiFi synced clocks instead. Or instrument grade DCF clocks, which I don't know how to obtain, and then whether I can afford them. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77#Reception> So now I'm in the process of using an old tablet as clock. No idea how long it will survive. An ebook with epaper display would be interesting if it can be repurposed as wall clock. Maybe a Linux tablet, if cheap enough.> >> So I specifically want clocks that adjust via Internet, NTP protocol, >> nothing else is valid for me. That's my question, please. Wall clocks >> for kitchen or elsewhere that sync using WiFi. > > It is an ideal DIY electronics project if you you must have one.I no longer enjoy that amount of detailed work. A ready to use kit I would very probably buy and do, but from scratch, no way. I no longer have my PCB etching materials, and I can not solder SMD. -- Cheers, Carlos.
Reply by ●November 24, 20212021-11-24
On 20/11/2021 00.54, John Larkin wrote:> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 21:44:24 +0100, "Carlos E.R." > <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: > >> On 19/11/2021 20.59, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:48:21 +0100, "Carlos E.R." >>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of >>>> syncing using the DCF radio station >>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to sync. >>>> >>>> I may have asked about this before. >>>> >>>> Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks can >>>> only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my clocks >>>> can be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting corrected in weeks. >>>> >>>> So I wonder if somebody makes some sort of ready made clock that uses >>>> internet for syncing and which can be put on a wall. Or a kit. >>>> >>>> Possibly it would run Android. >>>> >>>> For example I found one or two bedside alarm clocks (Lenovo Smart Clock >>>> Essential, with microphone switched off). But nothing for the wall. I >>>> really do not want a smart clock with a microphone listening, I just >>>> want a clock, perhaps with a thermometer or weather app. >>>> >>>> >>>> A possibility would be dedicate an old tablet to this. Or an ebook >>>> reader (some have apps) >>>> >>>> I heard of people doing things like that with a Pi or whatever, but I >>>> don't look forward to that, somehow, from scratch. A kit, may be. >>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe a DCF repeater? >>> >>> A cheap modern XO clock should be stable to a few PPM. >>> >>> Replace the batteries and set it every 6 months. >> >> Yeah, well, that's what I use, a plain analog clock, Xtall controlled. >> Still, goes of more than a minute by the time I have to adjust >> summer/winter time again. I want improvement :-) > > It may have a trimmer cap inside. And probably a 32768 Hz crystal. You > could potentially trim it.LOL, I'm not going to try that on a microscopic circuit :-D No, my Xtal clocks do not have any visible adjustments from outside. One has mechanical hands and the other is an IKEA thing. Several others are AC power "programmers". Maybe expensive clocks are accurate or adjustable, but that is not the case. Yes, I also hate summer/winter clock changes. -- Cheers, Carlos.
Reply by ●November 24, 20212021-11-24
On 20/11/2021 06.18, whit3rd wrote:> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:52:11 AM UTC-8, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of >> syncing using the DCF radio station >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to sync. > > > An off-the-shelf solution is the venerable Chumby > <https://www.thechumbystore.com> > which is kinda open-source and somewhat supported, with > Sony and other manufacturers sometimes supporting the hardware. > A NNTP clock is the base application for these. >Curious. When I try Amazon for that, I get T shirts instead. -- Cheers, Carlos.
Reply by ●November 24, 20212021-11-24
On 23/11/2021 04.54, Don Y wrote:> On 11/19/2021 11:48 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of >> syncing using the DCF radio station >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to sync. >> >> I may have asked about this before. >> >> Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks >> can only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my >> clocks can be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting >> corrected in weeks. > > Is your AC line frequency stable, over the long term? I.e., can you use > a regular old synchronous motor driven clock?Stable as on all of Europe, we are in sync :-)> > I've been running a line-frequency clock application on my time server > for many months to collect data regarding the possibility of using *it* > to discipline the local (CPU) clock -- which gains a fair bit of time > (that network isn't routed so can't rely on Internet time servers and > GPS doesn't have a good view of the sky from that location). Initial > results look great! But, that's a local condition that may not apply > elsewhere (with different mains quality).They don't seem to make wall AC clocks much. There is the µW oven, of course, but we have power failures or glitches and that clocks resets.> >> So I wonder if somebody makes some sort of ready made clock that uses >> internet for syncing and which can be put on a wall. Or a kit. >> >> Possibly it would run Android. > > Use a "clock" app that runs on a cell phone. Tape phone to wall. > If a phone's display is too small, use a larger tablet or iPad. > Let the cellular carrier maintain their "network time".Yes, that's what I am preparing. I have an old unused tablet which I'm going to use for that. I just bought an AC adapter and USB cable to power it on constantly. No idea if it will survive many moons. Also has reasons for more grumbling from me: if it powers off or reboots, it forgets the WiFi credentials. Possibly an update would solve that issue, but the factory Play Store refuses to work unless I enter google credentials; I'm not going to enter my own credentials on a gadget that can't be password protected, so I have to create a new google account solely for this purpose. Seems stupid, but the way to go. Then I need to find a widget or app that fills the display with a clock, perhaps also weather. Some want to put adverts, too! -- Cheers, Carlos.
Reply by ●November 24, 20212021-11-24
On 23/11/2021 06.30, Sylvia Else wrote:> On 20-Nov-21 5:48 am, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of >> syncing using the DCF radio station >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to sync. >> >> I may have asked about this before. >> >> Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks >> can only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my >> clocks can be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting >> corrected in weeks. >> >> So I wonder if somebody makes some sort of ready made clock that uses >> internet for syncing and which can be put on a wall. Or a kit. >> >> Possibly it would run Android. >> >> For example I found one or two bedside alarm clocks (Lenovo Smart >> Clock Essential, with microphone switched off). But nothing for the >> wall. I really do not want a smart clock with a microphone listening, >> I just want a clock, perhaps with a thermometer or weather app. >> >> >> A possibility would be dedicate an old tablet to this. Or an ebook >> reader (some have apps) >> >> I heard of people doing things like that with a Pi or whatever, but I >> don't look forward to that, somehow, from scratch. A kit, may be. >> >> >> Maybe a DCF repeater? >> > > Will it be powered from the mains behind the clock, or be battery powered? > > WiFi takes a fair bit of power.True. If it were a Linux tablet, with epaper for display, then I would put the WiFi on a timer to run once every 24 hours, say, and the batteries might last a week. I would then charge from a socket I already have that is not on the entire day. I found an interesting clock on Amazon, "Echo Wall Clock". Caveat: it needs to be 9 meters at most from an "Echo" device. Maybe uses Bluetooth to sync to the main Echo device, but 9 meters is not acceptable. -- Cheers, Carlos.
Reply by ●November 24, 20212021-11-24
On 23/11/2021 06.44, Sylvia Else wrote:> On 20-Nov-21 5:48 am, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of >> syncing using the DCF radio station >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to sync. >> >> I may have asked about this before. >> >> Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks >> can only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my >> clocks can be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting >> corrected in weeks. >> >> So I wonder if somebody makes some sort of ready made clock that uses >> internet for syncing and which can be put on a wall. Or a kit. >> > > For a while I had a clock that I'd modified by removing its internal > electronics, and running the motor through wires connected to some > remote electronics of my own devising that were connected to a PC. It > also handled the shift between daylight saving and standard time, either > by running the clock fast for a time, or stopping it for an hour, as > appropriate. > > It worked, mostly, though I found that it had missed about ten ticks in > the space of six months. The electronics had the correct time, but the > clock was not displaying it. That was about 1 tick in 1.5 million. I > never did determine why, but the cheap motor might have had something to > do with it. > > I was going to modify it for a continuous sweep motor, but moved houses, > and access behind the clock wasn't so convenient.Interesting idea. -- Cheers, Carlos.
Reply by ●November 28, 20212021-11-28
On 11/24/2021 6:13 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:> On 23/11/2021 04.54, Don Y wrote: >> On 11/19/2021 11:48 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> >>> I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of syncing >>> using the DCF radio station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi >>> (ie, internet) to sync. >>> >>> I may have asked about this before. >>> >>> Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks can >>> only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my clocks can >>> be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting corrected in weeks. >> >> Is your AC line frequency stable, over the long term? I.e., can you use a >> regular old synchronous motor driven clock? > > Stable as on all of Europe, we are in sync :-)So, the argument against using an electromechanical (synchronous motor) mains clock, is...?>> I've been running a line-frequency clock application on my time server >> for many months to collect data regarding the possibility of using *it* >> to discipline the local (CPU) clock -- which gains a fair bit of time >> (that network isn't routed so can't rely on Internet time servers and >> GPS doesn't have a good view of the sky from that location). Initial >> results look great! But, that's a local condition that may not apply >> elsewhere (with different mains quality). > > They don't seem to make wall AC clocks much.Ah! Dunno. I've not purchased a clock in decades. Mine are all "home brewed" (I enjoy designing timepieces) and use the AC mains to discipline the local oscillator (which is usually crap but, suffices for those periods of time when the mains are out -- as you know the frequency of the oscillator from long-term observations of the mains!)> There is the µW oven, of course, > but we have power failures or glitches and that clocks resets.No, you need something that is nonvolatile -- like a *mechanism* (or, something intentionally designed not to reset)>>> So I wonder if somebody makes some sort of ready made clock that uses >>> internet for syncing and which can be put on a wall. Or a kit. >>> >>> Possibly it would run Android. >> >> Use a "clock" app that runs on a cell phone. Tape phone to wall. >> If a phone's display is too small, use a larger tablet or iPad. >> Let the cellular carrier maintain their "network time". > > Yes, that's what I am preparing. I have an old unused tablet which I'm going to > use for that. I just bought an AC adapter and USB cable to power it on > constantly. No idea if it will survive many moons. > > Also has reasons for more grumbling from me: if it powers off or reboots, it > forgets the WiFi credentials. Possibly an update would solve that issue, but > the factory Play Store refuses to work unless I enter google credentials; I'm > not going to enter my own credentials on a gadget that can't be password > protected, so I have to create a new google account solely for this purpose. > Seems stupid, but the way to go.That's why I suggested a device with a *phone* in it (like an iPad or *some* tablets). Just sit, passively, and let the phone carrier keep updating your local time. Then, just an app that "displays" whatever time the tablet/phone thinks (based on the most recent "network time update" from your cell provider). [I suspect you can even get the time WITHOUT a valid "contract".]> Then I need to find a widget or app that fills the display with a clock, > perhaps also weather. Some want to put adverts, too!
