On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:56:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:>On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:50:17 +0000) it happened Martin Brown ><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <snajtm$1nb9$1@gioia.aioe.org>: > >>On 19/11/2021 23:54, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 21:44:24 +0100, "Carlos E.R." >>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> On 19/11/2021 20.59, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:48:21 +0100, "Carlos E.R." >>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of >>>>>> syncing using the DCF radio station >>>>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to sync. >>>>>> >>>>>> I may have asked about this before. >>>>>> >>>>>> Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks can >>>>>> only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my clocks >>>>>> can be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting corrected in weeks. >>>>>> >>>>>> So I wonder if somebody makes some sort of ready made clock that uses >>>>>> internet for syncing and which can be put on a wall. Or a kit. >>>>>> >>>>>> Possibly it would run Android. >>>>>> >>>>>> For example I found one or two bedside alarm clocks (Lenovo Smart Clock >>>>>> Essential, with microphone switched off). But nothing for the wall. I >>>>>> really do not want a smart clock with a microphone listening, I just >>>>>> want a clock, perhaps with a thermometer or weather app. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> A possibility would be dedicate an old tablet to this. Or an ebook >>>>>> reader (some have apps) >>>>>> >>>>>> I heard of people doing things like that with a Pi or whatever, but I >>>>>> don't look forward to that, somehow, from scratch. A kit, may be. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe a DCF repeater? >>>>> >>>>> A cheap modern XO clock should be stable to a few PPM. >>>>> >>>>> Replace the batteries and set it every 6 months. >>>> >>>> Yeah, well, that's what I use, a plain analog clock, Xtall controlled. >>>> Still, goes of more than a minute by the time I have to adjust >>>> summer/winter time again. I want improvement :-) >>> >>> It may have a trimmer cap inside. And probably a 32768 Hz crystal. You >>> could potentially trim it. >> >>All of the cheap xtal clock mechanisms I have ever seen have an adjuster >>on the back. The odd one does it digitally calibrated at manufacture >>against a reference second by tweaking the length of a second every now >>and then to compensate up or down by a few ppm. Long term average over a >>whole number of days can be made very good indeed this way. > >It is interesting to know that the clock on my microwave oven (make Whirlpool), >that I think uses 50Hz mains, stays to within seconds over a long time, >Same for my Sony radio clock. >Few years ago there was a minutes long error due to 50Hz drift between power stations.. >and it showed, >You realy do not normally need any more accuracy, but until the politiCsians >stop the summer / winter time crap you have have to adjust those things twice a year. >I am all for UTC everywhere worldwide. >Just a matter of getting used to locally, but much easier globally, and no clock change stress. > >The sun should be high at noon. Like in the movie. -- Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still; but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was always most valuable when he had lost it.
Seeking for a wall clock
Started by ●November 19, 2021
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 08:32:51 +0000, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:>On 19/11/2021 21:52, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 19/11/2021 22.19, Martin Brown wrote: >>> On 19/11/2021 18:48, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of >>>> syncing using the DCF radio station >>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to sync. >>>> >>>> I may have asked about this before. >>>> >>>> Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks >>>> can only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my >>>> clocks can be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting >>>> corrected in weeks. >>> >>> A decent quartz crystal clock should be good to a few tens of seconds >>> a month at most. There is something wrong if it runs out more than that. >> >> Specs are normally up to 4 seconds off per day, thus easily a minute a >> month; thus by the time I have to adjust summer/winter time, they are >> easily 5 minutes off. > >There is usually a trimmer on the back or in the case so you adjust it >to be within about 2ppm if you have the patience. A little wheel with a >legend along the lines of "- <-> +" though sometimes just an exposed >screwhead. I assume here that the clock will be indoors and not subject >to violent changes in temperature. > >> And I hate having to adjust summer/winter time. >> >> I also have 2 "automatic" DCF clocks, radio adjusted, and they don't work. > >Buy better ones then. > >> So I specifically want clocks that adjust via Internet, NTP protocol, >> nothing else is valid for me. That's my question, please. Wall clocks >> for kitchen or elsewhere that sync using WiFi. > >It is an ideal DIY electronics project if you you must have one.Injection lock. You wouldn't even have to open the case. Make a cute wooden block stand thet the clock sits on. -- Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still; but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was always most valuable when he had lost it.
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Nov 2021 03:08:27 -0800) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <anlhpg1tl6drl1u5oleeo21rtllgp1bt7u@4ax.com>:>On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:56:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje ><pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote: >>It is interesting to know that the clock on my microwave oven (make Whirlpool), >>that I think uses 50Hz mains, stays to within seconds over a long time, >>Same for my Sony radio clock. >>Few years ago there was a minutes long error due to 50Hz drift between power stations.. >>and it showed, >>You realy do not normally need any more accuracy, but until the politiCsians >>stop the summer / winter time crap you have have to adjust those things twice a year. >>I am all for UTC everywhere worldwide. >>Just a matter of getting used to locally, but much easier globally, and no clock change stress. >> >> > >The sun should be high at noon. Like in the movie.panteltje20: ~ # sun Current Date and Time: 20-Nov-2021 13:46 CET Target Information ... Location: 53.XN, 5.YE Date: 20-Nov-2021 Timezone: CET Sun directly north/south: 12:22 Twilight angle: -0.83 degrees (daylight) Day with twilight: 08:07 to 16:38 It is: Day (or twilight) General Information (no offset) ... Times ... Daylight: 08:07 to 16:38 with Civil twilight: 07:29 to 17:16 with Nautical twilight: 06:46 to 17:58 with Astronomical twilight: 06:05 to 18:40 Duration ... Day length: 08:31 hours with civil twilight: 09:46 hours with nautical twilight: 11:11 hours with astronomical twilight: 12:34 hours panteltje20: ~ # cat /usr/local/sbin/sun sunwait report 53.XN 5.YE sunwait is a nice utility in Linux I have substituted X and Y for my location to prevent the F35e crashing here.
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:07:14 +0000) it happened Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <snaktg$5jq$1@gioia.aioe.org>:>On 20/11/2021 10:56, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:50:17 +0000) it happened Martin Brown >> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <snajtm$1nb9$1@gioia.aioe.org>:>> It is interesting to know that the clock on my microwave oven (make Whirlpool), >> that I think uses 50Hz mains, stays to within seconds over a long time, >> Same for my Sony radio clock. > >Long term mains frequency is effectively locked back to atomic clocks. > >They have to keep the long term average within very tight bounds and so >typically run the frequency faster overnight when loads are lighter (the >older mechanical systems tend to do this slightly anyway). It used to >annoy astronomers back in the day when many drives were ac mains >synchronous motors (and they would run fast by ~1% at night). > >Today everything is dc servo based and autoguided so it is irrelevant. > >> Few years ago there was a minutes long error due to 50Hz drift between power stations.. >> and it showed, >> You realy do not normally need any more accuracy, but until the politiCsians >> stop the summer / winter time crap you have have to adjust those things twice a year. >> I am all for UTC everywhere worldwide. >> Just a matter of getting used to locally, but much easier globally, and no clock change stress. > >At higher latitudes the clock changes sort of make sense.You mean 'never gets dark'? at very high latitudes? To know the exact latitude I asked The All Knowing Google "at what latitude does it never get dark?" The allknowing replied: The Arctic Circle, at latitude 66.56 degrees, is the circle north of which there are at least some nights (centered on the June solstice) in which the sun never sets. Is this Google now the replacement for the acient God? Can I hack it???? :-)
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Nov 2021 03:10:58 -0800) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <mqlhpgt0ivv8nc3kdvld0bh58jjsq7gjve@4ax.com>:>On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 08:32:51 +0000, Martin Brown ><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > >>On 19/11/2021 21:52, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> On 19/11/2021 22.19, Martin Brown wrote: >>>> On 19/11/2021 18:48, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of >>>>> syncing using the DCF radio station >>>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, internet) to sync. >>>>> >>>>> I may have asked about this before. >>>>> >>>>> Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks >>>>> can only sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my >>>>> clocks can be in error for minutes of even hours, not getting >>>>> corrected in weeks. >>>> >>>> A decent quartz crystal clock should be good to a few tens of seconds >>>> a month at most. There is something wrong if it runs out more than that. >>> >>> Specs are normally up to 4 seconds off per day, thus easily a minute a >>> month; thus by the time I have to adjust summer/winter time, they are >>> easily 5 minutes off. >> >>There is usually a trimmer on the back or in the case so you adjust it >>to be within about 2ppm if you have the patience. A little wheel with a >>legend along the lines of "- <-> +" though sometimes just an exposed >>screwhead. I assume here that the clock will be indoors and not subject >>to violent changes in temperature. >> >>> And I hate having to adjust summer/winter time. >>> >>> I also have 2 "automatic" DCF clocks, radio adjusted, and they don't work. >> >>Buy better ones then. >> >>> So I specifically want clocks that adjust via Internet, NTP protocol, >>> nothing else is valid for me. That's my question, please. Wall clocks >>> for kitchen or elsewhere that sync using WiFi. >> >>It is an ideal DIY electronics project if you you must have one. > >Injection lock. You wouldn't even have to open the case. > >Make a cute wooden block stand thet the clock sits on.A wall clock is nice too http://panteltje.com/pub/matrix_display_zoom_IMG_6609.JPG but all those cables.... but can then display anything you want, air traffic here: http://panteltje.com/pub/rtl_sdr_dump1090_via_FDS132_matrix_display_Raspberry_Pi_driver_IMG_4149.JPG
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On 20/11/2021 13:02, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:07:14 +0000) it happened Martin Brown > <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <snaktg$5jq$1@gioia.aioe.org>: > >>> I am all for UTC everywhere worldwide.Astronomers sort of do that strictly we use TDT (formerly Ephemeris Time) which is closely related to civil UTC.>>> Just a matter of getting used to locally, but much easier globally, and no clock change stress. >> >> At higher latitudes the clock changes sort of make sense. > > You mean 'never gets dark'? at very high latitudes?But even at my latitude of 54 it doesn't get dark in summer until very late in the evening and never gets out of astronomical twilight. It confuses the hell out of LED garden lights which come on far too soon and run out of juice before it even gets moderately dark. Nearer the equator you get a more consistent day length and a rapid transition from day to night within a couple of hours at most.> To know the exact latitude I asked The All Knowing Google > "at what latitude does it never get dark?" > The allknowing replied: > The Arctic Circle, at latitude 66.56 degrees, is the circle north of which there are at least some nights (centered on the June solstice) in which the sun never sets. > > Is this Google now the replacement for the acient God? > > Can I hack it???? :-)You can always hack Google - there is even a book with that title https://www.amazon.co.uk/Google-Hacks-Finding-Worlds-Information-ebook/dp/B002QX43ZM Judicious use of + - and "" will get you a long way. -- Regards, Martin Brown
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Nov 2021 17:32:36 +0000) it happened Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <snbbg1$e6d$1@gioia.aioe.org>:>On 20/11/2021 13:02, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:07:14 +0000) it happened Martin Brown >> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <snaktg$5jq$1@gioia.aioe.org>: >> >>>> I am all for UTC everywhere worldwide. > >Astronomers sort of do that strictly we use TDT (formerly Ephemeris >Time) which is closely related to civil UTC. > >>>> Just a matter of getting used to locally, but much easier globally, and no clock change stress. >>> >>> At higher latitudes the clock changes sort of make sense. >> >> You mean 'never gets dark'? at very high latitudes? > >But even at my latitude of 54 it doesn't get dark in summer until very >late in the evening and never gets out of astronomical twilight. It >confuses the hell out of LED garden lights which come on far too soon >and run out of juice before it even gets moderately dark. > >Nearer the equator you get a more consistent day length and a rapid >transition from day to night within a couple of hours at most. > >> To know the exact latitude I asked The All Knowing Google >> "at what latitude does it never get dark?" >> The allknowing replied: >> The Arctic Circle, at latitude 66.56 degrees, is the circle north of which there are at least some nights (centered on the >> June solstice) in which the sun never sets. >> >> Is this Google now the replacement for the acient God? >> >> Can I hack it???? :-) > >You can always hack Google - there is even a book with that title > >https://www.amazon.co.uk/Google-Hacks-Finding-Worlds-Information-ebook/dp/B002QX43ZM > >Judicious use of + - and "" will get you a long way.Been a while since I bought a book.. Last one was 2014 "De keuring van een polyester zeiljacht" (translated: "examination of a polyester sailing yacht") from bol.com our local amazon. Now with that northern route becoming ice free..... When 2G restrictions come into power here (not vaccinated no entry anywhere) I may have to go that way AND SHOOT THE LAST POLARBEARS. People had enough of the covid restrictions crap here. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/the-netherlands-rotterdam-police-open-fire-as-covid-protest-turns-violent
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 1:32:55 PM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:> On 20/11/2021 13:02, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:07:14 +0000) it happened Martin Brown > > <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <snaktg$5jq$1...@gioia.aioe.org>: > > > >>> I am all for UTC everywhere worldwide. > Astronomers sort of do that strictly we use TDT (formerly Ephemeris > Time) which is closely related to civil UTC. > >>> Just a matter of getting used to locally, but much easier globally, and no clock change stress. > >> > >> At higher latitudes the clock changes sort of make sense. > > > > You mean 'never gets dark'? at very high latitudes? > But even at my latitude of 54 it doesn't get dark in summer until very > late in the evening and never gets out of astronomical twilight. It > confuses the hell out of LED garden lights which come on far too soon > and run out of juice before it even gets moderately dark. > > Nearer the equator you get a more consistent day length and a rapid > transition from day to night within a couple of hours at most.The length of the day being rather consistent all year long was something I had not expected in Puerto Rico. When I realized my friend in Maryland was catching up with me in terms of sunset I looked it up to find the day varies between 11 and 13 hours here. I see very little difference in the transition from daylight to dark through the seasons, but then I don't notice much of a difference in Maryland either. It's pretty in both places. I think you need to get a lot further north for that to be noticed. Sundials would work better here except that the noon shadow is to the south in the summer. I'm not sure they take that into consideration. The pointer has to lean out over the dial. North of the Tropic of Cancer a sundial can be on a south facing wall. Here that won't work for a good portion of the year unless the wall leans to the north or the dial is designed to protrude from the wall. -- Rick C. - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●November 20, 20212021-11-20
On 20/11/2021 03.45, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:> On Friday, 19 November 2021 at 18:32:11 UTC-8, Carlos E.R. wrote: > ... >>> The repeater input rod is oriented for maximum reception from >>> Mainflingen. The repeater output rod is perpendicular, and the clock >>> is nearby, with its rod parallel to the repeater output rod. >> Hum. Too complicated, unless someone sells a prepared kit. It has been >> decades since I do anything of the sort. > ... > You don't need a Raspberry Pi to synchronize with NTP. > > Here is a design using an ESP8266 programmed in the Arduino IDE. > > https://www.instructables.com/ESP8266-LED-Matrix-Clock/Interesting... -- Cheers, Carlos.
Reply by ●November 22, 20212021-11-22
On 11/19/2021 11:48 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:> Hi, > > I'd like to find a wall clock, say kitchen clock, that instead of syncing using > the DCF radio station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77), uses WiFi (ie, > internet) to sync. > > I may have asked about this before. > > Problem is, that here in Spain the DCF signal is so weak that clocks can only > sync during 01 to 05 AM, and often not even that, so that my clocks can be in > error for minutes of even hours, not getting corrected in weeks.Is your AC line frequency stable, over the long term? I.e., can you use a regular old synchronous motor driven clock? I've been running a line-frequency clock application on my time server for many months to collect data regarding the possibility of using *it* to discipline the local (CPU) clock -- which gains a fair bit of time (that network isn't routed so can't rely on Internet time servers and GPS doesn't have a good view of the sky from that location). Initial results look great! But, that's a local condition that may not apply elsewhere (with different mains quality).> So I wonder if somebody makes some sort of ready made clock that uses internet > for syncing and which can be put on a wall. Or a kit. > > Possibly it would run Android.Use a "clock" app that runs on a cell phone. Tape phone to wall. If a phone's display is too small, use a larger tablet or iPad. Let the cellular carrier maintain their "network time".
